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Universal Basic Income and Universal Health Care don't look so bad now huh??

geechiedan

geechiedan

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
How does the counter-argument go? Universal healthcare/medicare for all is too extreme?? All cost too much??

FACT: Obama gets us as close to as possible with ACA....trump spends the last 4 years dismantling it

FACT: Obama sets up a pandemic taskforce...trump takes it down 2 years ago....never replaces it...his direct quote:

President Donald Trump defended his huge budget cuts to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention during a Wednesday press conference on the federal government's response to the coronavirus.

He said it was easy to bolster the public-health agency and cited his business approach toward running the federal government.

"I'm a businessperson. I don't like having thousands of people around when you don't need them," Trump said. "When we need them, we can get them back very quickly."

The president said some of the experts targeted by the cuts "hadn't been used for many years" and that additional federal money and new medical staffers could be obtained swiftly since "we know all the good people."
markets.businessinsider.com

Trump defends huge cuts to the CDC's budget by saying the government can hire more doctors 'when we need them' during crises

"I'm a businessperson. I don't like having thousands of people around when you don't need them," Trump said about CDC experts.
markets.businessinsider.com markets.businessinsider.com


never mind the fact that it takes time to get a system to deal with a crisis on a national scale up and running to be effective and he just took down a dept designed to deal with exactly what we have in COVID-19....this is shortsightedness of the WORST DEGREE...

All of these things were done because of COST measures...well how much is gonna cost NOW to fight that shit and wheres that money coming from???

If democratic socialism is sooo horrible then whats the conservative answer?? What's the alternative to Biden and Sanders that trump has??

I'll wait....:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
 
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geechiedan said:
How does the counter-argument go? Universal healthcare/medicare for all is too extreme?? All cost too much??

"I'm a businessperson. I don't like having thousands of people around when you don't need them," Trump said. "When we need them, we can get them back very quickly."

The president said some of the experts targeted by the cuts "hadn't been used for many years" and that additional federal money and new medical staffers could be obtained swiftly since "we know all the good people."
markets.businessinsider.com

Trump defends huge cuts to the CDC's budget by saying the government can hire more doctors 'when we need them' during crises

"I'm a businessperson. I don't like having thousands of people around when you don't need them," Trump said about CDC experts.
markets.businessinsider.com markets.businessinsider.com

If democratic socialism is sooo horrible then whats the conservative answer?? What's the alternative to Biden and Sanders that trump has??

I'll wait....:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

In the meantime, thousands of people die while you try to get everything up and running again! In addition, if those people had been working, shit like this may have been mitigated significantly. Fucking retard.
 
gene cisco said:
Doesn't Italy have universal health care? :confused:I believe they are doing triage over there and letting people die. Italy has a top 10 ranked healthcare system and has over 2000 dead from over 25000 CONFIRMED infections.

Are we sure we playing politics right with this one?
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Yes

Now if Norway goes to shit then fuck Bernie, Trump and Biden we need a Black Hitler.
 
and the republicans and some democrats...keep talkin' about all the money we DON'T have...for these programs....

yet...somehow...some way....when they wanna give money to their friends in the banking industry and on wall street...they seem to find a spare trillion dollars in between the seat cushions....

donald trump...is a businessman...who didn't turned a profit for decades... and went bankrupt so many times...HE got FIRED from his own companies....

whether we choose socialism or REAL, TRUE capitalism...i can see benefits and drawbacks in either system....

but we need to pick a lane...cuz right now we have the worst of all worlds...
 
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rude_dog said:
In the meantime, thousands of people die while you try to get everything up and running again! In addition, if those people had been working, shit like this may have been mitigated significantly. Fucking retard.
Click to expand...

In keeping with the theme of lack of preparation because of incompetence:

The Cliff-note's version, before the inauguration, The Obama and Trump administration met and war-gamed a few scenarios concerning national security. One of them was a pandemic. The Trump administration sent 30 participants, since then most of Trump participants have left government service.



www.politico.com

Before Trump’s inauguration, a warning: ‘The worst influenza pandemic since 1918’

In a tabletop exercise days before an untested new president took power, officials briefed the incoming administration on a scenario remarkably like the one he faces now.
www.politico.com www.politico.com

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

Readout of the Principal-Level Transition Exercise

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov obamawhitehouse.archives.gov
 
Man_Of_STeeL said:
and the republicans and some democrats...keep talkin' about all the money we DON'T have...for these programs....

yet...somehow...some way....when they wanna give money to their friends in the banking industry and on wall street...they seem to find a spare trillion dollars in between the seat cushions....

donald trump...is a businessman...who didn't turned a profit for decades... and went bankrupt so many times...HE got FIRED from his own companies....

whether we choose socialism or REAL, TRUE capitalism...i can see benefits and drawbacks in either system....

but we need to pick a lane...cuz right now we have the worst of all worlds...
Click to expand...

That’s because tax cuts are passed right back too politicians via campaign contributions.

It’s one big hustle
 
gene cisco said:
Doesn't Italy have universal health care? :confused:I believe they are doing triage over there and letting people die. Italy has a top 10 ranked healthcare system and has over 2000 dead from over 25000 CONFIRMED infections.

Are we sure we playing politics right with this one?
Click to expand...

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | They’ve Contained the Coronavirus. Here’s How. (Published 2020)

Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong have brought outbreaks under control — and without resorting to China’s draconian measures.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
gene cisco said:
Doesn't Italy have universal health care? :confused:I believe they are doing triage over there and letting people die. Italy has a top 10 ranked healthcare system and has over 2000 dead from over 25000 CONFIRMED infections.

Are we sure we playing politics right with this one?
Click to expand...

Here you go with your facts and sense...just ruining threads :lol:
 
gene cisco said:
Norway got like 5 million people. They half as big as Ohio, and we considered rural. If those rich ass cacs can't manage 5 million people, they need be ashamed of themselves. :smh: 5 million people and there is minimum red tape.
Click to expand...
Their education system >>>>

I've worked in Norway and on Operations run by them in insane conditions and the level of planning and maturity on those jobs shits on anything I've ever worked on run by Americans.

You got people saying go to bars, gather, do what you want it's a fucking hoax. That's our society and our educational system producing 20-watt dimwitted brain dead attention whores. The fucking President had a "Twitter War" with Lavar Ball and the vice President is gay and a religious nut.

They're rich for a reason.
 
gene cisco said:
Doesn't Italy have universal health care? :confused:I believe they are doing triage over there and letting people die. Italy has a top 10 ranked healthcare system and has over 2000 dead from over 25000 CONFIRMED infections.

Are we sure we playing politics right with this one?
Click to expand...
hardawayz16 said:
Here you go with your facts and sense...just ruining threads :lol:
Click to expand...
you want facts??

Why Is Italy's Coronavirus Outbreak So Bad?

Why does Italy have such a high number of cases and deaths?
Because the virus spread undetected, some officials believe this is the reason for such a high number of cases in the country. “This started unnoticed which means by the time we realized it, there were a lot of transmission chains happening,” Riccardo says, noting that this may be why Italy has seen such a high number of cases.

Some officials also believe Italy, which has already tested over 42, 000 people, may have a higher number of cases as a result of performing more rigorous tests than their European counterparts.

Italy, however, is also reporting an above average mortality rate at 4%. The average age of coronavirus patients who have died because of the virus in Italy is 81, according to the National Health Institute. Italy, which has one the world’s oldest populations, could be facing a higher mortality rate as a result of its above-average elderly population. “Italy is the oldest country in the oldest continent in the world,” says Lorenzo Casani, the health director of a clinic for elderly people in Lombardy told TIME. “We have a lot of people over 65.”

Casani also suggests the mortality rate might be higher than average because Italy is testing only the critical cases. “We are not doing enough,” he said.

How is the Italian healthcare system handling it?
Italy’s current national health service, known as Servizio Sanitario Nazionale (SSN), provides free universal care to patients yet remains under-funded. Investments in public healthcare make up only 6.8% of the country’s gross domestic product (GDP), which is lower than other countries in the European Union including France and Germany.

“The continuous cuts—to care and to research—are obviously a problem right now,” Casani says. “We were not prepared. We do not have enough doctors for the people. We do not have an organized plan for pandemics.”


The concept of UHC isn't the problem its the EXECUTION!!

NOW YOU GOT CAPTAIN FUCK UP IN THE OVAL OFFICE CUTTING FUNDING AND REMOVING DEPTS DESIGNED TO HANDLE SHIT LIKE THIS AND YOU THINK THIS SYSTEM IS BETTER EQUIPPED??
 
gene cisco said:
Doesn't Italy have universal health care? :confused:I believe they are doing triage over there and letting people die. Italy has a top 10 ranked healthcare system and has over 2000 dead from over 25000 CONFIRMED infections.

Are we sure we playing politics right with this one?
Click to expand...

We are about 10 days behind Italy. We will know then what the real situation is going to be here.
 
White Republicans in Podunk, who have nothing in common with New York conservative elites will say, “this ain’t a good thing. Why should we pay for someone else’s needs and trauma?”
 
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TENT said:
We need that and universal housing.
Click to expand...
Yep but won’t get it. America is already quasi-socialist. I don’t think you want it to be full socialist but I agree that the government needs to be overhauled, which likely will occur after this event ends.

America is a corporation, not a country and the debt load is unmanageable. The bankers know this and are ready to collect. If the money system here wasn’t messed up, that would solve the majority of problems immediately.
 
hardawayz16 said:
Here you go with your facts and sense...just ruining threads :lol:
Click to expand...

It's too easy. Folks emotionally invested in talking points.
LordSinister said:
Their education system >>>>

I've worked in Norway and on Operations run by them in insane conditions and the level of planning and maturity on those jobs shits on anything I've ever worked on run by Americans.

You got people saying go to bars, gather, do what you want it's a fucking hoax. That's our society and our educational system producing 20-watt dimwitted brain dead attention whores. The fucking President had a "Twitter War" with Lavar Ball and the vice President is gay and a religious nut.

They're rich for a reason.
Click to expand...
Yeah, education helps a lot. I have no idea what their media is like over there. Our media has failed us during this outbreak. People aren't educated on data, but run to the Internet to make political points. It's frightening.

Folks are going to learn a lot comparing how countries/states/cities handled this situation. I think the biggest difference will be east vs west.
geechiedan said:
you want facts??

Why Is Italy's Coronavirus Outbreak So Bad?

Why does Italy have such a high number of cases and deaths?
Because the virus spread undetected, some officials believe this is the reason for such a high number of cases in the country. “This started unnoticed which means by the time we realized it, there were a lot of transmission chains happening,” Riccardo says, noting that this may be why Italy has seen such a high number of cases.

Some officials also believe Italy, which has already tested over 42, 000 people, may have a higher number of cases as a result of performing more rigorous tests than their European counterparts.

Italy, however, is also reporting an above average mortality rate at 4%. The average age of coronavirus patients who have died because of the virus in Italy is 81, according to the National Health Institute. Italy, which has one the world’s oldest populations, could be facing a higher mortality rate as a result of its above-average elderly population. “Italy is the oldest country in the oldest continent in the world,” says Lorenzo Casani, the health director of a clinic for elderly people in Lombardy told TIME. “We have a lot of people over 65.”

Casani also suggests the mortality rate might be higher than average because Italy is testing only the critical cases. “We are not doing enough,” he said.

How is the Italian healthcare system handling it?
Italy’s current national health service, known as Servizio Sanitario Nazionale (SSN), provides free universal care to patients yet remains under-funded. Investments in public healthcare make up only 6.8% of the country’s gross domestic product (GDP), which is lower than other countries in the European Union including France and Germany.

“The continuous cuts—to care and to research—are obviously a problem right now,” Casani says. “We were not prepared. We do not have enough doctors for the people. We do not have an organized plan for pandemics.”


The concept of UHC isn't the problem its the EXECUTION!!

NOW YOU GOT CAPTAIN FUCK UP IN THE OVAL OFFICE CUTTING FUNDING AND REMOVING DEPTS DESIGNED TO HANDLE SHIT LIKE THIS AND YOU THINK THIS SYSTEM IS BETTER EQUIPPED??
Click to expand...
Of course it's the execution. Do you think the redtape U.S. can handle this shit correctly? Even with the best healthcare system in the world, it wouldn't do shit since places like my state still have daycares open while claiming 100k were infected last fucking week.

Systems will become overwhelmed even if Mr. Spock organized the shit.

Why? Public doesn't take the right precautions and BOTH local and federal governments delay making needed actions MANDATORY.

And you're not going to 'out data' me on this shit. I've read everything twice and don't do so with emotional attachment to any position nor do I give a fuck about the politics.

France is on lockdown and has a high deathrate. They also have universal healthcare.

zod16 said:
We are about 10 days behind Italy. We will know then what the real situation is going to be here.
Click to expand...
Yeah, 10 days behind Italy and a lot of our people dropped the ball by not paying attention. The goal is to not OVERWHELM healthcare systems. To spread the infection out. People think that healthcare can magically take care of populations that aren't doing the right things to protect themselves. If your population insists on having houseparties during a pandemic, you're going to be fucked. Ain't enough medical pros and equipment to manage populations that don't do the right things.

I keep saying we're going to see a difference east vs west because of fucking masks. Infected plus non infected masked up means dramatically reduced infection rates from mild infections that don't get fucking tested. That mask shit is beyond the scope of universal healthcare man.
 
gene cisco said:
It's too easy. Folks emotionally invested in talking points.

Yeah, education helps a lot. I have no idea what their media is like over there. Our media has failed us during this outbreak. People aren't educated on data, but run to the Internet to make political points. It's frightening.

Folks are going to learn a lot comparing how countries/states/cities handled this situation. I think the biggest difference will be east vs west.

Of course it's the execution. Do you think the redtape U.S. can handle this shit correctly? Even with the best healthcare system in the world, it wouldn't do shit since places like my state still have daycares open while claiming 100k were infected last fucking week.

Systems will become overwhelmed even if Mr. Spock organized the shit.

Why? Public doesn't take the right precautions and BOTH local and federal governments delay making needed actions MANDATORY.

And you're not going to 'out data' me on this shit. I've read everything twice and don't do so with emotional attachment to any position nor do I give a fuck about the politics.

France is on lockdown and has a high deathrate. They also have universal healthcare.


Yeah, 10 days behind Italy and a lot of our people dropped the ball by not paying attention. The goal is to not OVERWHELM healthcare systems. To spread the infection out. People think that healthcare can magically take care of populations that aren't doing the right things to protect themselves. If your population insists on having houseparties during a pandemic, you're going to be fucked. Ain't enough medical pros and equipment to manage populations that don't do the right things.

I keep saying we're going to see a difference east vs west because of fucking masks. Infected plus non infected masked up means dramatically reduced infection rates from mild infections that don't get fucking tested. That mask shit is beyond the scope of universal healthcare man.
Click to expand...
Then your knock against UHC is sensless since its not the concept thats wrong at all...you can talk that "i'm not emotional" jive all you want...your logic isn't sound either.
 
I dont care what it is called. Socialist bocialist.
Everyone need FREE healthcare and a FREE house.

xfactor said:
Yep but won’t get it. America is already quasi-socialist. I don’t think you want it to be full socialist but I agree that the government needs to be overhauled, which likely will occur after this event ends.

America is a corporation, not a country and the debt load is unmanageable. The bankers know this and are ready to collect. If the money system here wasn’t messed up, that would solve the majority of problems immediately.
Click to expand...
 
Man_Of_STeeL said:
and the republicans and some democrats...keep talkin' about all the money we DON'T have...for these programs....

yet...somehow...some way....when they wanna give money to their friends in the banking industry and on wall street...they seem to find a spare trillion dollars in between the seat cushions....

donald trump...is a businessman...who didn't turned a profit for decades... and went bankrupt so many times...HE got FIRED from his own companies....

whether we choose socialism or REAL, TRUE capitalism...i can see benefits and drawbacks in either system....

but we need to pick a lane...cuz right now we have the worst of all worlds...
Click to expand...


You forgot giving Israel money every year....


I don't understand,why anyone would be against universal healthcare....
 
geechiedan said:
Then your knock against UHC is sensless since its not the concept thats wrong at all...you can talk that "i'm not emotional" jive all you want...your logic isn't sound either.
Click to expand...
You sensationalized thread title is horseshit. Universal healthcare doesn't look so bad now? Meanwhile, places with universal healthcare are also FUCKED.

And by the way, I'm all for universal healthcare, but you have fucking examples in real time that make your thread title shit. Stop trying to make profound political points and stick to the fucking data.

What's it like in France and Italy my man? :popcorn:And don't bring up anything in the east because they wear masks. Transmission rates down mean health systems of ANY TYPE that aren't overburdened.
 
gene cisco said:
You sensationalized thread title is horseshit. Universal healthcare doesn't look so bad now? Meanwhile, places with universal healthcare are also FUCKED.

And by the way, I'm all for universal healthcare, but you have fucking examples in real time that make your thread title shit. Stop trying to make profound political points and stick to the fucking data.

What's it like in France and Italy my man? :popcorn:And don't bring up anything in the east because they wear masks. Transmission rates down mean health systems of ANY TYPE that aren't overburdened.
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the data says those systems in those countries are UNDERFUNDED....meawhile we're CUTTING funding and shuttering shit at the same time increasing funds to the military or bailing out wallstreet if they hiccup. But you're FOR a system you think conceptually won't work BUT you have to think UHC is flawed as a concept if you keep cherry picking countries that have it.
 
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geechiedan said:
the data says those systems in those countries are UNDERFUNDED....meawhile we're CUTTING funding and shuttering shit at the same time increasing funds to the military or bailing out wallstreet if they hiccup. But you're FOR a system you think conceptually won't work and you have to think UHC is flawed as a concept if you keep cherry picking countries that have it.
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Bruh, I'm saying universal health care isn't proven to be a big enough factor for you to make such a thread title. And my position is backed up by data. Period.

I gave France as an example. Are they underfunded? How is their system usually ranked? What's their deathrate compared to ours?

It's obvious there are other factors that are way more significant and causing systems to be absolutely slammed.
 
geechiedan said:
the data says those systems in those countries are UNDERFUNDED....meawhile we're CUTTING funding and shuttering shit at the same time increasing funds to the military or bailing out wallstreet if they hiccup. But you're FOR a system you think conceptually won't work and you have to think UHC is flawed as a concept if you keep cherry picking countries that have it.
Click to expand...

LOL at "cherry picking". Italy is the current example all over the news for the virus overtaking their health system. He didn't have to go digging for an example.

And I also agree we need some type of free basic health care. But using this catastrophe to make your case ain't it.
 
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Man_Of_STeeL said:
and the republicans and some democrats...keep talkin' about all the money we DON'T have...for these programs....

yet...somehow...some way....when they wanna give money to their friends in the banking industry and on wall street...they seem to find a spare trillion dollars in between the seat cushions....

donald trump...is a businessman...who didn't turned a profit for decades... and went bankrupt so many times...HE got FIRED from his own companies....

whether we choose socialism or REAL, TRUE capitalism...i can see benefits and drawbacks in either system....

but we need to pick a lane...cuz right now we have the worst of all worlds...
Click to expand...
We already have socialism it's just for the rich. And the government wants the regular people to be capitalist. It's the dumbest thing!! It should be reversed but hey we people allow dumb shit to happen to us all the time :hmm: ..........
 
hardawayz16 said:
LOL at "cherry picking". Italy is the current example all over the news for the virus overtaking the their health system. He didn't have to go digging for an example.

And I also agree we need some type of free basic health care. But using this catastrophe to make your case ain't it.
Click to expand...

and they aren't the only country that has UHC just the worst case.. but WHAT SCENARIO WOULD BE IT??
 
TENT said:
I dont care what it is called. Socialist bocialist.
Everyone need FREE healthcare and a FREE house.
Click to expand...

have you ever been to the EU? it’s all good until everything looks the same.

I agree with your sentiment though, but the current system won’t allow it which is why it has to go.
 
hardawayz16 said:
LOL at "cherry picking". Italy is the current example all over the news for the virus overtaking the their health system. He didn't have to go digging for an example.

And I also agree we need some type of free basic health care. But using this catastrophe to make your case ain't it.
Click to expand...
Exactly. And when we move past Italy, we have France. I can also show death rates of other countries that have the healthcare we desire that have similar or higher death rates than the U.S.

I hate when instagram/facebook/youtube like clickbait is posted on here. :smh:

Yeah, our leaders have failed us on healthcare, but on this shit, our leaders failed(and are failing) in a different way.
 
gene cisco said:
Exactly. And when we move past Italy, we have France. I can also show death rates of other countries that have the healthcare we desire that have similar or higher death rates than the U.S.

I hate when instagram/facebook/youtube like clickbait is posted on here. :smh:

Yeah, our leaders have failed us on healthcare, but on this shit, our leaders failed(and are failing) in a different way.
Click to expand...
and what ways are those that are different from italy and france??
 
Doesn't matter when the government is only sending each state/city/county/hospital only so many test kits and most hospitals are only admitting so many people at a time....health care or no health care,they don't give a damn.Stay safe
 
geechiedan said:
and what ways are those that are different from italy and france??
Click to expand...
geechiedan said:
and what ways are those that are different from italy and france??
Click to expand...
I mean in a different way than bungling healthcare. They been fucking up healthcare for years. But they fucked up on this by response time and measures, similar to Italy, France, and a number of other places. And when they finally did act, you have a percentage of people who don't take the shit seriously.

For example, right now in Ohio, daycares are still open. That is reckless as hell and a prime example of how ANY healthcare system can become quickly overrun with cases. :smh: In other threads, people mad at our governor for halting the primary. All that dumb shit adds up and will lead to triage out here.
 

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