Had to stop letting CACs from work in my circle.
AOC gettin surgical at that hearing..may have laid foundation to subpoena trumps finances
- Thread starter geechiedan
- Start date
Had to stop letting CACs from work in my circle.
I disagree. Nancy is and always has been a badass. She held Obama down and got his agenda passed when they were in the majority, she held her caucus together. She trumped Trump and held everyone together even though dems were making noise to end the shutdown. AOC has potential, but she doesn't have the experience and knowledge Nancy has to navigate the system. I hope Nancy mentors her but while Trump is in office, we need Nancy in charge. Once there is a semi sane president back in office, then some of the younger folks can step up. AOC has a sharp mind and I like her for the most part, I think she can be a bit cocky at times.
Nancy has always been a force in the background. Trump being a public ass toward her has caused her to have to respond in public, so some folks are seeing it for the first time. No one else would have been able to handle Trump. She is fearless and not only knows what her powers and responsibilities are, she knows the job the WH is supposed to be doing, what they can and can't do. Schumer is a bit of a punk, imo, but I think Nancy is currently keeping him in line.
Nancy can count votes. I don't think Obama and other dems wanted to prosecute Bush for war crimes, worried about the precedent it would set.
AOC is being targeted because she is effective, but most importantly she is YOUNG. Unless term limits are set for congress critters, she could possibly be in their ass for decades to come. They are trying to kneecap her now. They are trying to break her spirit along with Tlaib and Omar. Shes bright, she has potential and I think she is going to be a great leader long term, but she's not ready yet. IMO anyway. She needs someone to guide her without causing her to lose her passion.
You and @Darrkman made some very good points.
There's something to be said about Nancy's experience, certainly. She has not been a detriment per se to the Dems, so much as not having been uber effective. I still maintain that she hasn't gotten any major piece of legislation passed besides ObamaCare - which as you pointed out was when the House Dems had a super-majority. The Affordable Care Act being a concept originally conceived by The Heritage Foundation whose primary elements were put in place in Massachusetts under Mitt Romney prior to President Obama's time in office. The form of it we ended up with was an extremely skeletal version of what Obama promised on the campaign trail. Also, I was initially put off by Nancy Pelosi's immediate call for bipartisanship when she took back the seat of Speaker several weeks ago. That felt out of touch with reality- as if she was naive to the fact that the Repubs are a brick wall of savagery, racism and unbridled loyalty to Trump.
Your point is well taken regarding her promise to investigate the Bush Admin for war crimes.
I believe that the history books will mostly and rightly remember Nancy Pelosi for not backing down or capitulating to Trump on the issue of his border wall/fence/barrier/invisible steel wall. She is far from a fool and not a coward. The importance cannot be stressed of the backbone she displayed during that episode. Had she capitulated, it would have literally pushed America headlong into the waters of fascism and positioned Trump as a dictator. I tip my hat to her for that.
What I would like and hope to see would be that the old guard and the young lions would be wise enough to coalesce and utilize each other's strengths to rebuild the Democrats into something better, stronger and faster. Both sides have important things to bring to the table.
Lets get real about how the right wing think tank came up with what would eventually become obamacare...
In 1993 the GOP killed hillarycare in utero partly by introducing their own alternative..the heritage foundation concept. In the time the GOP controlled congress from 96 to 06 including the white house in 2000 they NEVER BOTHERED to introduce their idea of national healthcare..not once.
So the reality is the GOP NEVER INTENDED TO IMPLEMENT healthcare reform at any point even now.
What does that mean exactly? What is politics? I know what an experienced mechanic, experienced doctor, experienced programmer is capable of...but what does an "experienced politician" do other than make promises to get re-elected?
Republicans are unapologetically assaulting democracy while Democrats are still trying to be democratic. I'm not saying go full revenge mode, but there is a balance of resisting and maintaining your cool.
This shit right here!!!
An experience politician would know this.
In politics there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies only permanent interest.
The hate AOC gets is totally irrational and largely driven by conservative propaganda. Her Democratic bonafides are so obvious and compelling it's difficult to take curmedgeonly dismissals like these seriously.
Here's hoping we can get more folks like her into Congress and displace the corporate hack/Republican-lite Dems as much as possible.
That was the sexiest thing I have ever heard you say. Damn, girl.
We have two different opinions on how the party should go. I strongly want the liberal left to take a back seat in this party.
More Conner Lambs less Ocasio Cortezes
@Camille I am in agreement about what you said about Pelosi (as well as other experienced Dems) mentoring her. I would pray that in the process she doesn't end up domesticated. I'm not so much in agreement with the bold. Trump needs to be stopped. He and his congressional followers are unified and ruthless. The Dems need teeth, not recklessness but toughness.
Intelligence. Calculation. Silent movement. Bold and vocal at other times. Fearlessness.
They need to match the intensity of the opposition, because right now the Republican party is following behind and supporting an out and out criminal racist and possible Russian operative who has zero regard for the Constitution or the rule of law and seeks unbridled power. This is a new and very dangerous kind of animal in the White House, one who has real potential to destroy democracy and send us into a very bad place. He was cheated into office and could get cheated in again. There is a fierce urgency of now.
“Perhaps…the nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.”
― Martin Luther King Jr., Why We Can't Wait
and speaking of Dr. King...
@drbaby6 I disagree slightly with your characterization of AOC. At the age of 27, Dr. King organized the Montgomery Bus Boycott and at age 29 seized the reins of the Southern Christian Leadership conference. The topic of this thread references the fact that AOC was the singular voice who stepped out of the framework of the Russia investigation and re-framed the questioning. That framing was one that involved the most probable way to kneecap and take down Trump, his finances. She has stereotyped as being too fiery, haphazard, irrational and too young to lead. Yet her demeanor and focus speaking to Cohen was the complete opposite. Then two days later, the House Democrat are demanding Trump's tax returns. This is power. These sharp young progressive minds might be the only thing that has the potential to save the Democratic party.
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Which is fake as hell good brother, and why politics is so divisive and toxic right now. Loyalty to a team, no matter how extreme those views are getting, is just sheepish and cowardly. These fuckers now are loyal to an agenda that changes based on what donors they are bought by. Mass shootings in schools were a dozen or so innocent kids are being killed is meh...but one illegal immigrant killing is somehow opening the gates of hell. It's all horseshit that anyone with basic critical thinking skills should question.
I agree, but when has politics not been fake as hell... Permanent interest= white supremacy
As horrible as Trump has been, the only reason he hasn't been more destructive is that he doesn't know what he can and can't do. Congress and the government is run by laws, rules and regulations. A lot of the stuff he tries to implement gets walked back by the courts, tho they lie and stall once they get in front of the judge. He is learning on the fly, and he opposes learning and new info. If Trump had any curiosity beyond covering his own ass at this point, he could do real damage.
I'm not saying AOC isn't capable, but she needs to learn the laws and rules. Many in Congress have a law back ground. Trump is not one to be going against while doing on the job training, as incompetent as he is at times. He has a group of white supremacists surrounding him and guiding his policies, and we need someone like Nancy to counter him. Until AOC learns what can and can't be done or changed, she won't be as effective.
In addition it is run by relationships, people willing to do what you want to get something in return, because they owe you, because they like you or because they fear you and the power you hold to make their lives miserable. AOC has rubbed people the wrong way. Partly because she comes across brash at times, partly because she is a threat in many ways. She needs to learn who can get what done, and develop relationships as well.
Nancy knows she isn't going to be there forever. Nancy allowed many of the freshman, including AOC, to get on committees usually reserved for more tenured members, even after all the shit they talked about her. I think this has been a good thing, as many have sharp minds. Many of the folks talking trash were being influenced by GOP propaganda though. Opinions formed from the outside looking in. That has all but ceased since these people have actually been in Congress and seen her work up close. Young folks are always idealistic and critical of the ones who came before them. They always think they can do better, faster. I'm all for new ideas and I like a lot of the topics being brought into the mainstream because we have a lot of younger members now, but ideas are not enough. You have to go and get through the legislation and regulations to get it done. AOC will be a force to be reckoned with, but she's not ready to lead the house yet, imo. Her time will come, though.
Was thinking the same thing.
She designed her questioning to elicit a specific response which demands a follow up.
Lotta people bout to get that “your presence is requested” phonecall based on thatline of questioning.
Lotta scrambling and shredding and text/email deleting going on right now.
Still nobody found in the garage w the engine running.
Carry on......
I enjoy the fact that on BGOL we who are rational can expand and refine our viewpoints based upon the shared perspectives of others. That said, I'm no longer speaking in terms of AOC leading the Dems instead of Pelosi. I'm speaking on the notion that AOC needs to be silenced due to age. I disagree with the notion. I take no issue with her working under leadership and tutelage. My point is that her skills and usefulness along with her contemporaries should be recognized and utilized by leadership where effective. What she did in addressing Cohen is the best example so far. The moves the Dems made a day or so later to go after Trump's tax returns is the proof of AOC's impact.
Also, regarding Trump, if he is an agent/puppet of Putin - stupid or not, the possibilities are unnerving. At the least, if many of the moves he is making are at Putin's direction then this country is being destabilized from a foreign adversary. To what end?
I grant you, if the buffoon was intelligent we'd be in worse trouble.
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Why not just vote Republican then?
Edit:... you used the phrase "the liberal left".... you are Republican.... carry on mr. Manchurian.
meanwhile I voted Clinton, Obama (Twice), Kerry, Gore, Clinton once - rest too young to vote........sounds pretty republican to me huh.....carry on.
Have voted w the left for my entire existence.
Couldn’t bring myself to vote for Obama after the Gaddafi situation although I understand.
To me the situation in Libya is a microcosm of how people and mostly pigmented ones are treated globally.
They create this false narrative about our inability to be self sufficient while behend the scenes they divert
funds, support rebels and instill quiet sanctions to ensure we don’t succeed,
The same thing they do to these countries is the same to our communit3s.
This system is setup for us to be worker bees to the 1% queen.
The system is setup for us to fail.
It’s sad man.
Carry on......
I agree she should not be silenced. Where she is in terms of thinking and vision is the same place the younger electorate the dems wish to engage and get involved reside. She's great at social media, and she's quick on her feet. She also is not easily shamed. (That can be good and bad tho.) The other site we've discussed before has a new negative thread about her every week, but even the folks there who have reservations had to praise her questioning during the Cohen hearing. (The Trump voters were silent tho) I hope she continues to make a good showing to counteract the propaganda. The GOP are trying to target her and make her a household enemy name like they have Pelosi, Hillary and Warren. Even dems came to develop a negative option of them because the GOP propaganda machine is so effective.
At this point I think she needs to learn everything she can and learn to present her ideas so that she can get everyone on board. She's good at getting a public response to put pressure on, and that works a bit with house dems, but the house GOP are in districts so gerrymandered that public opinion doesn't matter anymore.
My issue is that when AOC talks about trying to primary moderate democrats then she is no longer on my team.
Yeah, that I didn't like and that is going to win her more enemies than friends. It's the same crap Bernie wanted to do. I don't trust him at all, she at least is coming from the stand point that if you are going to call yourself a progressive to own it and vote like it, but it reeks of the upstart who thinks she knows better.
There are some dems who aren't as effective as they should be or who are beholden to corporate interests, but each district is different, and dems are more likely than the GOP to vote the way the people who represent them want them to.
On the other hand, I think that the primary is where we should have the fight and make dems earn your vote. Once is down to the dem and the republican though, 99% of the time, the dem is the better choice and we need to keep getting them elected. When the GOP is in power the make changes that normally disenfranchise us, and make it harder for dems to win. Flint would have had clean water years ago if it wasn't for the GOP holding back funds.
But she is on mine.
Man, dont you know that we are trying to get rid of you guys? So called Moderate Democrats are more dangerous than Republicans. Why is there no such thing as a moderate Republican?
Sorry but you don t have more of a right to this party then we do......FOH
I agree with you. I've got faith in her that she will grow as she works. I like the fact that there are others like her that were elected too. It says a lot about what people want who vote democratic. I think a lot of the backlash on the dem side comes from the fact that they're used to the status quo and a certain way of doing things. Change can be intimidating. For some of her colleagues, I'm sure she represents what they wish they had done but didn't.
