HBO's Westworld (Official) Season 4 discussion thread (Full trailer 6/16/22) drops 6/26/22
- Thread starter fonzerrillii
- Start date
Is that what they were saying? I took it as Benard is modeled after Arnold but is not actually Arnold.......
he never destroyed it - they just buried the town (rewatch last week's ep )
those are buried roof tops
Ford said the host that looked like him was his father - that Bernard built as a gift to Ford
the only question there who put that at the corral for D father to find? MIB? Ford? D herself (like the gun)?
as for the spoiler - I agree -I think EVERYONE of the staff we saw under the church tonight was massacred
When I said destroyed I meant buried....
But I'm leaning toward your Delores/ Wyatt theory. I'm going to go back an rewatch every episode before Sunday's finale.
And yeah I forgot that that the guy in the photo looked like Fords dad. I could roll with that... that the first host was Fords dad.
That picture is huge... trying not to get to into details but you have to remember when you first saw it in this series and its effect.
I'll go in when more people watch and come in.
well Bernard DID say we
You heard that huh?
I think the key to knowing if Ford is truly a host is to see what happens when Maeve sees Ford again. Maeve instantly knew that Bernard was a Host.
I also have a new theory about Deloris.
What if everything that we see from Deloris isn't a different time frame or timeline but active Memories that Deloris is experiencing while retracing her steps to find the William and see the maze. Basically Deloris's memories are layered over each other.
This theory would explain the multiple clothing in the same scenes, the church, and Bernard constantly telling her to remember....
basically everything that we see with Delores is still happening in the present.
This is another wild theory but.... last nights episode made me come up with this one. It's the only way that I can explain the church.
What if everything that we see from Deloris isn't a different time frame or timeline but active Memories that Deloris is experiencing while retracing her steps to find the William and see the maze. Basically Deloris's memories are layered over each other.
This theory would explain the multiple clothing in the same scenes, the church, and Bernard constantly telling her to remember....
basically everything that we see with Delores is still happening in the present.
This is another wild theory but.... last nights episode made me come up with this one. It's the only way that I can explain the church.
I can't see Ford being a host. That would mean someone would have had to have built him and it seems like Arnold died suddenly.
Besides, I don't believe the suits would be trying so hard to get rid of him if they knew it was a way to simply turn him off.
I do have a theory that every employee in the park is a host except Ford.
In fact, I gotta go back and check, but it can be said that this may not even be on planet Earth.
IMO -its the same as the night she ran away from the farm - her present day story stopped there, until the meeting with Ford and again at the river.
Last night it was her story with Billy that stopped when she ran away - it'll probably continue next week - what we saw then was present day Delores returning to the town Ford restored and the church and offices... this also means that scenes with her and Arnold happened beneath the church and not where Bernard killed Theresa -
30 years ago Dolores' body was mechanical but present day Dolores is fully organic
MIB doesn't know about how Arnold died or the massacre, but he figured out exactly where to go and that Dolores is the key to get him to the maze (unfortunately the maze is for hosts not humans, so I'm guessing he'll need to adjust)
Here is a theory - Ford figured out how to transfer consciousness to host bodies but did not do it with Bernard.
Westworld Is Running Out of Theories to Confirm
Image: Screencap from Westworld, HBO
Westworld has piled mystery upon mystery in its premiere season, and fans have developed several theories to explain what’s happening, which the show keeps proving to be true. But with yet another major revelation revealed in last night’s episode, there is also only one big thing left for Westworld to confirm... or deny.
Pretty much every Westworld theory has revolved around two things: Bernard being a host, and the two timeline theory. Once people started thinking that Bernard was a host, the next question became whether or not he was an android clone of Arnold. Bernard’s host status was confirmed a few weeks ago, while last night’s episode revealed he is indeed a replica of Ford’s former partner Arnold. So now all Westworld has to sort out are its timeline questions (even if that turns out to be the one theory that everyone’s got wrong).
We do finally have some answers, and it turns out that Bernard’s loop is the cruelest one of all. First of all, as guessed oh so long ago, the death of Bernard’s son was based on Arnold’s own tragic backstory. Bernard’s son isn’t real, of course, but Bernard’s whole personality was built around it. The idea mimics the way we all see our lives as being marked by milestones—and the bigger they are, the more we attribute to them. The hosts are given a backstory, with a “cornerstone memory” anchoring their fake lives. Bernard has to get past thinking of his son as being a defining part of his life in order to see who he is.
And he is Arnold. Either Ford is really co-dependent or Arnold made it near-impossible to keep Westworld up and running without him, because Ford clearly believes he needed to build Bernard. He seems to be right, since Ford says that Bernard has been the best jailer for the hosts, figuring out how to keep them in the park better than anyone else. Bernard was wholly built by Ford, and he’s Ford’s greatest creation: a host who upgrades himself.
Bernard: With due respect, sir, you broke into my mind.
Ford: I built your mind, Bernard. I have every right to wander through its rooms, and chambers, and halls and to change it if I choose, even to burn it down. After all this time, I know it almost as intimately as I know my own.
That’s a lie, of course. Bernard also helped build his mind. When Bernard says he looked at his own code and the most elegant bits are Arnold’s, he’s really saying that he, Bernard, wrote the best parts of his own code. His mind is actually his own, in a small way.
At least we’ve been given the whole of one picture. (Image: Screencap from Westworld, HBO)
It’s not even Bernard finding out that he is Arnold that was the major shock of the episode. It was Ford revealing that Bernard always discovers this. That he’s done it many, many times. And that, each time, Ford just hits the host equivalent of system restore (or Time Machine, if the androids are Macs) to put Bernard back to when he didn’t know he was Arnold. All the other hosts we’ve seen recover memories are on some sort of new journey. Not Bernard—he can remember all he wants, but Ford is always a step ahead of him.
Which begs the question if Maeve, Dolores, and everyone else’s plans are just as doomed—if the hosts are on a cycle of discovery, rebellion, and being put down and it’s just a thing Ford has to do every so often. If Maeve’s army and Dolores’ maze journey are all doomed from the start.
Image: John P. Johnson/HBO
Speaking of Maeve and Dolores, Maeve’s plan for setting the hosts free (so similar to what Bernard wants to do before Ford shuts him down, oh god) has the first step of getting host outlaw Hector on her side. Well, first she has to get out of Behavior and back into the park, which she does by getting Bernard to let her go and telling him to go get answers. Poor Bernard.
But once she’s back in the park, she meets with Hector and asks for him to join her on a quest. She tells him exactly how his story is programmed to play out—his crew kills each other and reveals that the safe he keeps trying to steal is empty—and then explains about her quest. She continually refers to the park administration as “hell,” and that they have to die so they can go there and then break out. (Her method of death is to set them both on fire, just in case the hell thing wasn’t clear.)
Also, having sex with Hector while there’s a knife between them triggers Hector’s memory of the last time that happened. Incidentally, that time also ended in her death and re-emergence in maintenance, starting her on the journey of self-discovery that got her to this point. Loops again. Everything in this show is a loop.
Maeve has the power of the programmers, but insists on convincing people to her side rather than commanding them makes her the perfect foil to Ford. Ford lets Bernard go through all his memories, even though he has a backdoor that he can use to make Bernard kill himself, because he wants Bernard on his side. Maeve actively campaigns for people and you even get the sense that she wouldn’t order anyone to kill themselves if they refused.
Image: John P. Johnson/HBO
On the flip side of Maeve are Billy and Dolores, both of whom seem determined to conform to Ford’s view of the world. Dolores says, “If it’s such a wonderful place out there, why are you all clamoring to get in here?” and “There is beauty in this world, Arnold created it this way. But people like you keep spreading over it like a stain.”
That’s pretty similar to Ford saying that the hosts were meant to be better than humans, more perfect. Ford also says of humans, “When we eventually ran out of creatures to dominate, we built this beautiful place.” That’s reallysimilar to Dolores’ words.
Ford later says, “Humans are alone in this world for a reason. We murdered and butchered anything that challenged our primacy. Do you know what happened to the Neanderthals, Bernard? We ate them.” That echoes the scene with Billy, who we last saw standing in among a pile of dead bodies with only Logan left alive. The dead hosts looked taken apart and eaten—so nothing good can come from that.
By the end of the episode, the version of Bernard we’ve spent the season with has shot himself (I was holding out hope that he’d fake it, but we hear the gun go off and see his body fall.) Dolores has remembered Arnold and remembered that she killed him. More importantly, it’s revealed all those conversations that Dolores had with Bernard this season? They’re actually ones she had with the real Arnold.
The center of the maze is revealed to be the church steeple, which is in the town where Teddy and Dolores killed people, and which we’ve seen buried all through this season and assumed Ford is excavating for his new narrative. The Man in Black figures out that’s the center after receiving a final clue from the host that captured him and Teddy (a reference to a city swallowed by sand), but as he enters the church, Dolores is there, walking out of the confessional which took her down to the underground lab where she used to talk with Arnold.
The fact that Dolores is wearing her pants get-up—and that she had previously in the episode run away from Billy after Logan stabbed her—hints that the Billy and the Man in Black storylines are taking place in the same time. But Billy and Dolores had recently seen the steeple when it was buried, and the Dolores who walks out of the confessional doesn’t appear to have that stab wound. But Dolores has been fading in and out of her memories constantly. There’s no telling what’s real with her, or when it’s happening. Although it’s sort of telling that when the Man in Black enters the church, Dolores, before she sees who it is, asks, “Billy?”
Given that Dolores is losing her mind, that’s not quite enough to confirm the two timeline theory. But it’s a start.
I like Billy like this. (Image: Screencap from Westworld, HBO)
Assorted Musings
Image: Screencap from Westworld, HBO
Westworld has piled mystery upon mystery in its premiere season, and fans have developed several theories to explain what’s happening, which the show keeps proving to be true. But with yet another major revelation revealed in last night’s episode, there is also only one big thing left for Westworld to confirm... or deny.
Pretty much every Westworld theory has revolved around two things: Bernard being a host, and the two timeline theory. Once people started thinking that Bernard was a host, the next question became whether or not he was an android clone of Arnold. Bernard’s host status was confirmed a few weeks ago, while last night’s episode revealed he is indeed a replica of Ford’s former partner Arnold. So now all Westworld has to sort out are its timeline questions (even if that turns out to be the one theory that everyone’s got wrong).
We do finally have some answers, and it turns out that Bernard’s loop is the cruelest one of all. First of all, as guessed oh so long ago, the death of Bernard’s son was based on Arnold’s own tragic backstory. Bernard’s son isn’t real, of course, but Bernard’s whole personality was built around it. The idea mimics the way we all see our lives as being marked by milestones—and the bigger they are, the more we attribute to them. The hosts are given a backstory, with a “cornerstone memory” anchoring their fake lives. Bernard has to get past thinking of his son as being a defining part of his life in order to see who he is.
And he is Arnold. Either Ford is really co-dependent or Arnold made it near-impossible to keep Westworld up and running without him, because Ford clearly believes he needed to build Bernard. He seems to be right, since Ford says that Bernard has been the best jailer for the hosts, figuring out how to keep them in the park better than anyone else. Bernard was wholly built by Ford, and he’s Ford’s greatest creation: a host who upgrades himself.
Bernard: With due respect, sir, you broke into my mind.
Ford: I built your mind, Bernard. I have every right to wander through its rooms, and chambers, and halls and to change it if I choose, even to burn it down. After all this time, I know it almost as intimately as I know my own.
That’s a lie, of course. Bernard also helped build his mind. When Bernard says he looked at his own code and the most elegant bits are Arnold’s, he’s really saying that he, Bernard, wrote the best parts of his own code. His mind is actually his own, in a small way.
At least we’ve been given the whole of one picture. (Image: Screencap from Westworld, HBO)
It’s not even Bernard finding out that he is Arnold that was the major shock of the episode. It was Ford revealing that Bernard always discovers this. That he’s done it many, many times. And that, each time, Ford just hits the host equivalent of system restore (or Time Machine, if the androids are Macs) to put Bernard back to when he didn’t know he was Arnold. All the other hosts we’ve seen recover memories are on some sort of new journey. Not Bernard—he can remember all he wants, but Ford is always a step ahead of him.
Which begs the question if Maeve, Dolores, and everyone else’s plans are just as doomed—if the hosts are on a cycle of discovery, rebellion, and being put down and it’s just a thing Ford has to do every so often. If Maeve’s army and Dolores’ maze journey are all doomed from the start.
Image: John P. Johnson/HBO
Speaking of Maeve and Dolores, Maeve’s plan for setting the hosts free (so similar to what Bernard wants to do before Ford shuts him down, oh god) has the first step of getting host outlaw Hector on her side. Well, first she has to get out of Behavior and back into the park, which she does by getting Bernard to let her go and telling him to go get answers. Poor Bernard.
But once she’s back in the park, she meets with Hector and asks for him to join her on a quest. She tells him exactly how his story is programmed to play out—his crew kills each other and reveals that the safe he keeps trying to steal is empty—and then explains about her quest. She continually refers to the park administration as “hell,” and that they have to die so they can go there and then break out. (Her method of death is to set them both on fire, just in case the hell thing wasn’t clear.)
Also, having sex with Hector while there’s a knife between them triggers Hector’s memory of the last time that happened. Incidentally, that time also ended in her death and re-emergence in maintenance, starting her on the journey of self-discovery that got her to this point. Loops again. Everything in this show is a loop.
Maeve has the power of the programmers, but insists on convincing people to her side rather than commanding them makes her the perfect foil to Ford. Ford lets Bernard go through all his memories, even though he has a backdoor that he can use to make Bernard kill himself, because he wants Bernard on his side. Maeve actively campaigns for people and you even get the sense that she wouldn’t order anyone to kill themselves if they refused.
Image: John P. Johnson/HBO
On the flip side of Maeve are Billy and Dolores, both of whom seem determined to conform to Ford’s view of the world. Dolores says, “If it’s such a wonderful place out there, why are you all clamoring to get in here?” and “There is beauty in this world, Arnold created it this way. But people like you keep spreading over it like a stain.”
That’s pretty similar to Ford saying that the hosts were meant to be better than humans, more perfect. Ford also says of humans, “When we eventually ran out of creatures to dominate, we built this beautiful place.” That’s reallysimilar to Dolores’ words.
Ford later says, “Humans are alone in this world for a reason. We murdered and butchered anything that challenged our primacy. Do you know what happened to the Neanderthals, Bernard? We ate them.” That echoes the scene with Billy, who we last saw standing in among a pile of dead bodies with only Logan left alive. The dead hosts looked taken apart and eaten—so nothing good can come from that.
By the end of the episode, the version of Bernard we’ve spent the season with has shot himself (I was holding out hope that he’d fake it, but we hear the gun go off and see his body fall.) Dolores has remembered Arnold and remembered that she killed him. More importantly, it’s revealed all those conversations that Dolores had with Bernard this season? They’re actually ones she had with the real Arnold.
The center of the maze is revealed to be the church steeple, which is in the town where Teddy and Dolores killed people, and which we’ve seen buried all through this season and assumed Ford is excavating for his new narrative. The Man in Black figures out that’s the center after receiving a final clue from the host that captured him and Teddy (a reference to a city swallowed by sand), but as he enters the church, Dolores is there, walking out of the confessional which took her down to the underground lab where she used to talk with Arnold.
The fact that Dolores is wearing her pants get-up—and that she had previously in the episode run away from Billy after Logan stabbed her—hints that the Billy and the Man in Black storylines are taking place in the same time. But Billy and Dolores had recently seen the steeple when it was buried, and the Dolores who walks out of the confessional doesn’t appear to have that stab wound. But Dolores has been fading in and out of her memories constantly. There’s no telling what’s real with her, or when it’s happening. Although it’s sort of telling that when the Man in Black enters the church, Dolores, before she sees who it is, asks, “Billy?”
Given that Dolores is losing her mind, that’s not quite enough to confirm the two timeline theory. But it’s a start.
I like Billy like this. (Image: Screencap from Westworld, HBO)
Assorted Musings
- The title of this episode is “The Well-Tempered Clavier,” a Bach composition for keyboard. We’ve seen music used by Arnold in the base code of the hosts before, remember? It was used to subdue Maeve after her daughter died. And there was a close-up on a hand-cranked phonograph during Teddy’s massacre flashback, where Teddy says he had no control over his actions. Plus, you know, the whole “player-piano” metaphor this whole show’s had going.
- I’m betting the host Ford was building two episodes back was a new Bernard. If Bernard keeps figuring all this out and needing to be retired, Ford’s got to keep a new Bernard body around.
- Which leads me to think that the next time we see Bernard, he’s going to be Arnold as Wyatt in the park.
- Wyatt has a posse of fully-aware hosts, apparently. Also, Teddy was the sheriff in that sand-swallowed town before he went nuts and killed a bunch of people, just like Dolores remembers doing.
- Nothing Ford has done has made me as angry and sad as what he does to Bernard. I think Bernard being stuck in the “human” world and tricked into keeping his own people enslaved is just an extra level of cruel, beyond what the hosts are usually subject to. And, again, there’s how good Jeffery Wright is at getting us on his side.
- Incidentally, Bernard seeing his ex-wife as not Gina Torres but Anthony Hopkins is also a tragedy.
- We know that the Man in Black is on the Delos board and that he kept the park going years ago. Remember that Logan said to Billy they were looking into buying the place, so who knows if that means anything. It’d be interesting if Billy was a giant red herring and Logan is really the Man in Black.
- Ford has a nasty habit of saying “we” when he means “I.” See: “We’ve had to make some uncomfortable decisions, Bernard.”
- Also, the “young Anthony Hopkins” effect is super-creepy.
- What on Earth is going on with Elsie’s phone and the abduction of the security guy?
- Billy is engaged to Logan’s sister, whose photo they show. It looks like it might be the photo that sent Dolores’ father around the bend in the premiere. Since anything in this show can be a clue, here it is to study:
Yeah I can agree with you that the scenes with Arnold and Delores happened beneath the church.
I also agree with the new model Deloris being organic... that opens up some amazing things.
My theory is that after the massacre... Ford didn't know how Arnold was able to create such lifelike mechanical brains... so he took the previous OS from them and used as a foundation for the new versions. Basically two operating systems... that would explain the constant references by the hosts of two different voices in their head. It would also explain why some hosts have this issue and some don't. I think all the old hosts in that basement error.. are hosts based on Arnold's original concept.
I definitely think that this isn't happening on earth.
As for the Board and Ford not being a host... you have to remember that they didn't even know Bernard was a host. So it would pretty easy for Ford to be the very first Host and that Arnold actually was the true creator of all of this.
imagine if the entire park is on a loop
that Ford resets every time.
Delos' board is always around the corner, just about ready to get rid of Ford...
the hosts always rebel and kill the staff and some guests, destroying data etc
and Ford just resets
Dear Westworld Guest,
At long last, Dr. Ford’s new narrative is ready. To celebrate the long-awaited project, the Delos Board of Directors will be visiting the park. As a preferred guest and expert park goer, we invite you to join in the celebration as well, should you be up for the journey. I'll be here to address any questions you have in the meantime.
Best regards,
Aeden
GUEST SERVICES HOST
At long last, Dr. Ford’s new narrative is ready. To celebrate the long-awaited project, the Delos Board of Directors will be visiting the park. As a preferred guest and expert park goer, we invite you to join in the celebration as well, should you be up for the journey. I'll be here to address any questions you have in the meantime.
Best regards,
Aeden
GUEST SERVICES HOST
Another bit of musings that I wanted to add... I truly wonder if there is going to be some significance to Ford showing his and telling Bernard about the backdoor that Arnold built into his creations.
I think we can agree that Bernard didn't shoot himself in the head. There is too much of Bernard's story there for this to be it. So here are my 2 theories of what happened after Ford mentioned the backdoor in Bernard's programming.
1. Bernard realizes that there is a back door and hacked his own programming. He then made it appear that he shot himself in the head to comply with the original programming but to also get off Fords radar so he can finish seeking the truth.
2. My big wild theory..... that Bernard uses the backdoor hack to get into Ford (since he is a host under one of my theories) and gets him to see what he needs to see. Bernard shooting himself.
This is theory that I've been running with since episode 8... that this has all happened before and will happen again.. but that's not that entertaining for a season 2.
My hope for season 2 is that Delos wins..... but decides to continue the park.
A part of me doesn't want to see the host's walking around free in the real world because that would be too much like HUMANS.
I think we can agree that Bernard didn't shoot himself in the head. There is too much of Bernard's story there for this to be it. So here are my 2 theories of what happened after Ford mentioned the backdoor in Bernard's programming.
1. Bernard realizes that there is a back door and hacked his own programming. He then made it appear that he shot himself in the head to comply with the original programming but to also get off Fords radar so he can finish seeking the truth.
2. My big wild theory..... that Bernard uses the backdoor hack to get into Ford (since he is a host under one of my theories) and gets him to see what he needs to see. Bernard shooting himself.
This is theory that I've been running with since episode 8... that this has all happened before and will happen again.. but that's not that entertaining for a season 2.
My hope for season 2 is that Delos wins..... but decides to continue the park.
A part of me doesn't want to see the host's walking around free in the real world because that would be too much like HUMANS.
Last edited:
my guess is the reset happens but with a few things wrong - Ford gets killed and Bernard has to move forward keeping the park running and keeping Delos at bay
Bernard as a sympathetic villain, enslaver of his own people
how?
what do you mean by "how"?
So nobody in here thinks Benard shot himself right?
it doesn't matter if he shot himself or not... Bernard is a host
So why did Ford have him shoot himself?
ford made him put himself down. why would he fix him?
Maeve gonna bring him back.
Dude if you pause at the :13 second mark. You can clearly see Delores's name on the grave.
So it looks like we both may be right about this organic Delores being a completely different version of the Delores that we see in her memories and that Delores likely caused the massacre.
But......... Who is the one that dug the grave? Was it MIB or William...
Also... Why can't we make out the last name in the preview? I don't recall anyone ever actually using a first and last name for a host.
since when does she have the ability to repair/create hosts?
She got the technician/ Felix with her. And she knows some of the code at this point.
edit: are u postulating that maybe she will make some other hosts repair him?
Lmao I missed damn near all the show because I kept asking my wife, what he say? who's that? wait he's Arnold? the white bitch killed him? wait this is a memory? I was all fucked upI'm so lost that I don't even know if I want to be found......like I might need to re-watch this shit or something because that shit went all the fuck over my head. I'm gonna have to find a read up online or some shit.
because Ford has repaired him before and will do it again
watch the episode again-
Bernard always finds out he is a host - always confronts Ford - always gets the memories - and Ford keeps hoping Bernard will choose to work with him instead of killing him..
Ford was always in control of the situation last night because it has happened many times before
I suspect the sentient hosts are all patterned on or drawn from the consciences of dead people in someway...Dude if you pause at the :13 second mark. You can clearly see Delores's name on the grave.
So it looks like we both may be right about this organic Delores being a completely different version of the Delores that we see in her memories and that Delores likely caused the massacre.
But......... Who is the one that dug the grave? Was it MIB or William...
Also... Why can't we make out the last name in the preview? I don't recall anyone ever actually using a first and last name for a host.
i totally missed the "this has happened before" angle in that particular interaction. where was that hint?
Yeah.. it doesn't really matter because as a host anyone can bring him back.
My hope though is that Bernard manipulated the situation. Having him shoot himself would make him... inferior to Maeve and I think we have seen to much of Arnold and Bernard... to just assume that he wouldn't take advantage of the situation.
For example.... I think that Elise is still alive. That even though... Ford ordered him to kill her that Bernard "maybe with some influence from Arnold"... was able to show just enough in his memory to make Ford see just what he needed to see, because he subconsciously knew Ford would be able to see his thoughts.
Seeing what the person... NEEDS TO SEE... is the theme for everything in this show.
I'm done. Fuck this gottdamn show and trying to figure it out. I'm just looking at it for the pretty pictures right now. Every damn week coming here to see if somebody figured this shit out. Everybody got a different fuckin theory. I done watched several episodes several times.
Fuck this shit.
Mothafuckas playing wit my gottdamn mind. Starting to think I'm a fucking host.
Fuck this shit.
Mothafuckas playing wit my gottdamn mind. Starting to think I'm a fucking host.
Similar threads
