NBA Debate: Jordan is the best player ever except Bird was a better passer, shooter and rebounder

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace,

I know you were trying to be witty by hinting that Jordan has more championships. Winners are judged by chips but also by game winning plays. Jordan won more but didn't have near the competition Bird had. They changed the hard foul and hand checking rules specifically for Jordan to win. I'm not saying that Jordan wasn't a great winner, I'm saying that more goes into it than just championships. Plus a lot of guys have championships and were horrible winners. (Glen Robinson)

This is a series of terrible arguments.

So what are you trying to say, that Bird had as many "winning plays" as J, but, somehow, not as many championships? That makes sense to you?

And as far as the hand checking rules go, those rules didn't go into effect until well after Jordan began torching defenses (including Boston's). Please don't be a revisionist because you want your earlier statement to somehow be logical (it isn't).

Whether Bird faced stiffer competition than Jordan is open for debate. What's not, however, is that Bird played with 3 hall of famers and somehow, despite the fact that he's just as much of a winner as Jordan, still won only half as many championships.

Please stop making asinine statements to support your original, poorly-thought-out assertion.

 

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace,

dude jordan won 3 rings b4 the handchecking rule even went into effect..why do people always act like jordan won his first ring when rodman came to the bulls..handchecking was alive and well until like 94..i remember how people use to call that the dereck harper rule cause he was the master of catching steals off of handchecking people..they talked about it a lot once he came to the knicks..that's well into jordan getting his first few rings

Exactly. These cats say the dumbest shit in these kinds of threads.

 

[KingTaharqa]

jordan also had defensive player of the yr award something u seem to always not mention..he also led the league in steals a few times.. see he can say he can play defense and actually show a stat of him leading the league in that category unlike some other players who claim to be great defenders but never lead the league in any defensive stat

Stockton is the all time steals leader doesnt mean he's a great defender. Jordan did win a defensive player of the year but as far as rebouding, shooting and passing Bird WAS better.

 

[Big Philly]

dude jordan won 3 rings b4 the handchecking rule even went into effect..why do people always act like jordan won his first ring when rodman came to the bulls..handchecking was alive and well until like 94..i remember how people use to call that the dereck harper rule cause he was the master of catching steals off of handchecking people..they talked about it a lot once he came to the knicks..that's well into jordan getting his first few rings

No! The rule was added after the Pistons won their second title. It was changed to the forearm then was totally eliminated well into Jordan's reign. The Knicks nor the Heat had the type of talent that the Celtics, Sixers, Pistons, Lakers or Bucks had when Bird was playing. Again, I'm not saying that Jordan wasn't a winner. I'm saying that Bird was just as great a winner as he did as many individual winnings plays (diving for loose balls, making the extra pass, taking a charge, making the clutch shot) as Jordan. I'm not hating or Jordan.

 

[KingTaharqa]

No! The rule was added after the Pistons won their second title. It was changed to the forearm then was totally eliminated well into Jordan's reign. The Knicks nor the Heat had the type of talent that the Celtics, Sixers, Pistons, Lakers or Bucks had when Bird was playing. Again, I'm not saying that Jordan wasn't a winner. I'm saying that Bird was just as great a winner as he did as many individual winnings plays (diving for loose balls, making the extra pass, taking a charge, making the clutch shot) as Jordan. I'm not hating or Jordan.

What you mean is the NBA created the "Flagrant Foul" rule in 1990 prior to the Bulls winning chips and began officiating physicality a lot tougher. In the 80s there was no such thing as a flagrant foul. Bird won chips over a Moses Malone Rockets team, Magic & Kareem Lakers, & Hakeem & Ralph Sampson Rockets. All 3 are arguably better than any team MJ beat in a Finals.

 

[Big Philly]

What you mean is the NBA created the "Flagrant Foul" rule in 1990 prior to the Bulls winning chips and began officiating physicality a lot tougher. In the 80s there was no such thing as a flagrant foul. Bird won chips over a Moses Malone Rockets team, Magic & Kareem Lakers, & Hakeem & Ralph Sampson Rockets. All 3 are arguably better than any team MJ beat in a Finals.

Correct! David Stern saw that the NBA was hard for the average fan to watch and he wanted to capitalize on players like Jordan, Pippen and Drexler. He didn't want them going down the lane and getting hammered as opposed to making highlight plays. It helped Jordan most.

 

[tallblacknyc]

What you mean is the NBA created the "Flagrant Foul" rule in 1990 prior to the Bulls winning chips and began officiating physicality a lot tougher. In the 80s there was no such thing as a flagrant foul. Bird won chips over a Moses Malone Rockets team, Magic & Kareem Lakers, & Hakeem & Ralph Sampson Rockets. All 3 are arguably better than any team MJ beat in a Finals.

also all those teams were better than the dallas maverick squad that lebron lost to as well as all the bulls teams that jordan faced in the finals were all better than that mavericks squad

 

[Big Philly]

Stockton is the all time steals leader doesnt mean he's a great defender. Jordan did win a defensive player of the year but as far as rebouding, shooting and passing Bird WAS better.

Correct again!

 

[tallblacknyc]

Correct! David Stern saw that the NBA was hard for the average fan to watch and he wanted to capitalize on players like Jordan, Pippen and Drexler. He didn't want them going down the lane and getting hammered as opposed to making highlight plays. It helped Jordan most.

i'm pretty sure every player has benefitted from not getting dropped kicked in the chest goin down the lane since jordan also.. hell lebron creates fake fouls imagine if laimbeer really hit him with an elbow

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

also all those teams were better than the dallas maverick squad that lebron caused the lost to as well as all the bulls teams that jordan faced in the finals were all better than that mavericks squad

Fixed

 

[Big Philly]

i'm pretty sure every player has benefitted from not getting dropped kicked in the chest goin down the lane since jordan also.. hell lebron creates fake fouls imagine if laimbeer really hit him with an elbow

This rule has hurt the bigger, stronger, slower players that played through the contact. It, along with the three point line, have all but eliminated the back to the basket post player. Valenchunis is the best post player left in the playoffs and he is hardly a great low post scorer. So not every player benefitted from that rule change.

 

[gene cisco]

Let's put it this way. Bird is lucky that Dirk wasn't born in America, played without the help Bird had against some incredible competition, and stayed loyal to the fucking Mavs(even after they let Nash go ).

 

[tallblacknyc]

Let's put it this way. Bird is lucky that Dirk wasn't born in America, played without the help Bird had against some incredible competition, and stayed loyal to the fucking Mavs(even after they let Nash go ).

nash wasn't really doin shit on the mavs..he didn't have a double digit assist yr he didn't score more than 20 a game he was juss a decent guard..than thanks to amare, marion, and johnson + dantontio system his assist jumped and he scored a whopping 15-18 points a game..than got mvp for having less than stockton numbers... 15 points 11 assist-really really- these stats got him an mvp(john stockton sitting home somewhere like i should have 10 mvp's in that case)

 

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace,

I'm convinced that some biased, shit-for-brains cracker could make the argument that Detlef Schrempf was better than Jordan and some of you ignorant muhfuckas would support it.

 

[gene cisco]

nash wasn't really doin shit on the mavs..he didn't have a double digit assist yr he didn't score more than 20 a game he was juss a decent guard..than thanks to amare, marion, and johnson + dantontio system his assist jumped and he scored a whopping 15-18 points a game..than got mvp for having less than stockton numbers... 15 points 11 assist-really really- these stats got him an mvp(john stockton sitting home somewhere like i should have 10 mvp's in that case)

It's just the point that Dirk had a shitty organization to put up with. Nash definitely could have stated and helped. Dirk basically took 2 different teams to the finals. That's some Lebron shit. He came out the fucking west too. He's a very underrated player who did himself a disservice by remaining so loyal to Cuban. Without Dirk, Cuban sells that team years ago.

 

[BrownTurd]

0-6. 2 sweeps. Celtics fans still brag about it to this day.

Ain't no shame to losing to Boston. That was one of the most dominant teams

 

[BrownTurd]

What you mean is the NBA created the "Flagrant Foul" rule in 1990 prior to the Bulls winning chips and began officiating physicality a lot tougher. In the 80s there was no such thing as a flagrant foul. Bird won chips over a Moses Malone Rockets team, Magic & Kareem Lakers, & Hakeem & Ralph Sampson Rockets. All 3 are arguably better than any team MJ beat in a Finals.

The years that MJ and the Bulls won titles, every one in the league had just as much opportunity to win as Jordan did.

You can only play who is in front of you.

 

[playahaitian]

The years that MJ and the Bulls won titles, every one in the league had just as much opportunity to win as Jordan did.

You can only play who is in front of you.

^^^^

 

[Big Philly]

Let's put it this way. Bird is lucky that Dirk wasn't born in America, played without the help Bird had against some incredible competition, and stayed loyal to the fucking Mavs(even after they let Nash go ).

Are you saying you think Dirk was better than Bird?

 

[BrownTurd]

Are you saying you think Dirk was better than Bird?

Switch them out and you get the same results

 

[Spectrum]

Are you saying you think Dirk was better than Bird?

Naw. I don't think that's what he's saying. He's just saying that Dirk is underappreciated as a player and I agree. He's an NBA champion that is also going to end his career as probably the 3rd highest scorer of all time.

If he was American-born, he would be getting A LOT more media attention.

 

[KingTaharqa]

Ain't no shame to losing to Boston. That was one of the most dominant teams

Losing is one thing, getting swept in back to back seasons is another.

 

[KingTaharqa]

It's just the point that Dirk had a shitty organization to put up with. Nash definitely could have stated and helped. Dirk basically took 2 different teams to the finals. That's some Lebron shit. He came out the fucking west too. He's a very underrated player who did himself a disservice by remaining so loyal to Cuban. Without Dirk, Cuban sells that team years ago.

According to tallblacknyc Dirk is the worst NBA champ of all time. And 26 year old LeBron losing to him (as well as defending champ Kobe, and Westbrook, Durant) in 2011 is the biggest letdown in sports history. His hero MJ at age 26 wasnt even good enough to make a Finals, let alone win one.

 

[gene cisco]

Are you saying you think Dirk was better than Bird?

An argument could be made...If we are comparing Jordan to Bird, come on now. Dirk vs Bird argument is a much better one.

 

[BrownTurd]

Losing is one thing, getting swept in back to back seasons is another.

There is no shame in getting swept early in your career especially from a great team who won multiple titles. It helps young teams learn what it takes to build a championship pedigree and culture.

Just like there should be no shame in losing to the MJ Bulls because they were one of the most dominant teams of all time.

 

[Big Philly]

An argument could be made...If we are comparing Jordan to Bird, come on now. Dirk vs Bird argument is a much better one.

NO! Bird is closer to Jordan than Dirk is to Bird. Bird is arguably the greatest small forward ever. Dirk is listed as a power forward but he's more like a tall small forward. Either way he's not in the top 5 at either position.

 

[KingTaharqa]

There is no shame in getting swept early in your career especially from a great team who won multiple titles. It helps young teams learn what it takes to build a championship pedigree and culture.

Just like there should be no shame in losing to the MJ Bulls because they were one of the most dominant teams of all time.

That same Celtics team that swept MJ needed 7 games to get by Sidney Moncrief in 87. Even Dominique won a game over them in 86. It speaks to Jordan's inability to lead a team without Pippen by his side, just score alot of points and do a bunch of flashy dunks.

As for the original point Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder than MJ.

 

[BrownTurd]

That same Celtics team that swept MJ needed 7 games to get by Sidney Moncrief in 87. Even Dominique won a game over them in 86. It speaks to Jordan's inability to lead a team without Pippen by his side, just score alot of points and do a bunch of flashy dunks.

As for the original point Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder than MJ.

That Celtics team in 87 was the defending champions and played in the NBA finals that same year. So your logic does not hold up. A young Bulls team getting swept by the world champion Celtics was to be expected.

Without Pippen Jordan does not win a title but you act like that is something unsual. It takes a great player and supporting cast to win NBA titles. No one has ever one a title without a great supporting cast.

 

[durham]

Jordan was my favorite players, just like everyone else...but Kareem was the better overall more complete player imo.

 

[tallblacknyc]

According to tallblacknyc Dirk is the worst NBA champ of all time. And 26 year old LeBron losing to him (as well as defending champ Kobe, and Westbrook, Durant) in 2011 is the biggest letdown in sports history. His hero MJ at age 26 wasnt even good enough to make a Finals, let alone win one.

i never said dirk was garbage.. i said his squad wasn't good as the teams the celtics played or the bulls.. i forget only lebron gets built in excuses with u.. u tried to shit on the bulls only to have ur responses backfire everytime.. ur still hurt that i said jordan is better than lebron..think about it ur rants are because i think jordan is better than lebron lol.. i never said jordan was my hero hell i never had another male in my avatar or i never had a male poster on my wall in my life male worship is gay where i come from especially if the dude has nothing to do with ur creation, ur support, ur progress.. u've had several males in ur avatar and ur known as the lebron sta-fan..when it's all said and done ur mad cause i said jordan better than ur boy

 

[tallblacknyc]

That same Celtics team that swept MJ needed 7 games to get by Sidney Moncrief in 87. Even Dominique won a game over them in 86. It speaks to Jordan's inability to lead a team without Pippen by his side, just score alot of points and do a bunch of flashy dunks.

As for the original point Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder than MJ.

he also was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder than lebron

 

[KingTaharqa]

i never said dirk was garbage.. i said his squad wasn't good as the teams the celtics played or the bulls.. i forget only lebron gets built in excuses with u.. u tried to shit on the bulls only to have ur responses backfire everytime..

You reference one FINALS to slight Bron in a thread comparing Bird and Jordan. I reference two FIRST ROUND series of Jordan bitching up and getting swept by Bird. He never beat him a single time. And your excuse was "the Bulls lost not MJ"

ur still hurt that i said jordan is better than lebron..think about it ur rants are because i think jordan is better than lebron lol..

Ur still hurt that LeBron has rendered Jordans legacy as old and played out. And he's solidified his place as a better all around player and better businessman. The Warriors are on the cusp of erasing the Bulls from memory if they cap off their 73 win season with a chip. And yet your Jumpman dickriding ass will pull for them over Bron simply because each title he wins makes MJ less and less important. And thats more threatening.

i never said jordan was my hero hell i never had another male in my avatar or i never had a male poster on my wall in my life male worship is gay where i come from especially if the dude has nothing to do with ur creation, ur support, ur progress.. u've had several males in ur avatar and ur known as the lebron sta-fan..when it's all said and done ur mad cause i said jordan better than ur boy

You never hesitate to get tender about MJs legacy and bitch up when any criticism is leveled towards him. As if he is your man and you are his womans coming to his defense. So it doesnt have to be said. MJ then Kobe, thats who you worship and cry the most for. The thread is about Bird but you brought Bron into the convo because thats who makes you insecure about J and youre upset I mentioned Mikes embarassing series against the Cs. If Mike had won just 1 game, 1 game against his rival I wouldntve been able to state one of his contemporaries swept him TWICE. Sorry that hurt your feelings, blame Hoe Jordan not me.

he also was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder than lebron

He was a better shooter and rebounder. Bron is a better scorer, passer, and defender. See unlike you Jordan stan I can take a realistic look at his game and it doesnt shake my world and make me tender that another legend was better at some things than him. The fact you cant is why folks clown you Jordan dickriders so hard. Youre delusional and always try to downplay how obsessed you are with his brand. When we can see thru it plainly like a glass of sprite.

 

[KingTaharqa]

Jordan dickriders like tallblack are driven by nostalgia and their lust for their man. They dont care about reality, because reality would show that their man wasnt perfect and isnt flawless contrary to the work the Nike marketing team put in. REAL NBA fans and history buffs are driven by FACTS, stats, and reality. For example...

MJ played Bird 28 times in the regular season. He was 11-17 vs. Bird in those contests. Their #'s in those games...

MJ 33.5 ppg (25.3 FGA), 6.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 50.6 FG%, 30.6 3PT%
Bird 26.9 ppg (22.1 FGA), 8.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, 49.8 FG%, 46.9 3PT%

So we can conclude head to head in the regular season Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder

In the playoffs MJ played Bird 6 times. He lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Their #'s in those games...

MJ 39.7 ppg (29.8 FGA), 6.7 rpg, 5.8 apg, 46.4 FG%, 50.0 3PT% (6 attempts)
Bird 27.2 ppg (16.3 FGA), 9.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, 53.1 FG%, 46.2 3PT% (13 attempts)

So we can conclude head to head in the postseason averaging a near triple double, Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder

We also can conclude that head to head "The GOAT" was 11-23 (.324) vs. Bird

 

[BrownTurd]

Jordan dickriders like tallblack are driven by nostalgia and their lust for their man. They dont care about reality, because reality would show that their man wasnt perfect and isnt flawless contrary to the work the Nike marketing team put in. REAL NBA fans and history buffs are driven by FACTS, stats, and reality. For example...

MJ played Bird 28 times in the regular season. He was 11-17 vs. Bird in those contests. Their #'s in those games...

MJ 33.5 ppg (25.3 FGA), 6.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 50.6 FG%, 30.6 3PT%
Bird 26.9 ppg (22.1 FGA), 8.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, 49.8 FG%, 46.9 3PT%

So we can conclude head to head in the regular season Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder

In the playoffs MJ played Bird 6 times. He lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Their #'s in those games...

MJ 39.7 ppg (29.8 FGA), 6.7 rpg, 5.8 apg, 46.4 FG%, 50.0 3PT% (6 attempts)
Bird 27.2 ppg (16.3 FGA), 9.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, 53.1 FG%, 46.2 3PT% (13 attempts)

So we can conclude head to head in the postseason averaging a near triple double, Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder

We also can conclude that head to head "The GOAT" was 11-23 (.324) vs. Bird

Larry Bird played forward so he was supposed to grab more rebounds than Jordan. Averaging 6 rebounds per game as a shooting guard is putting in some major work. Did you really just compare a forward to a shooting guard in rebounding?

MJ losing to Bird was to be expected. Larry Bird and Boston were world champions who won multiple titles vs a young Bulls team who were developing.

Also assist numbers don't mean "great passer". A great passer is one who can routinely make difficult passes.

 

[hayesc0]

Jordan dickriders like tallblack are driven by nostalgia and their lust for their man. They dont care about reality, because reality would show that their man wasnt perfect and isnt flawless contrary to the work the Nike marketing team put in. REAL NBA fans and history buffs are driven by FACTS, stats, and reality. For example...

MJ played Bird 28 times in the regular season. He was 11-17 vs. Bird in those contests. Their #'s in those games...

MJ 33.5 ppg (25.3 FGA), 6.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 50.6 FG%, 30.6 3PT%
Bird 26.9 ppg (22.1 FGA), 8.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, 49.8 FG%, 46.9 3PT%

So we can conclude head to head in the regular season Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder

In the playoffs MJ played Bird 6 times. He lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Their #'s in those games...

MJ 39.7 ppg (29.8 FGA), 6.7 rpg, 5.8 apg, 46.4 FG%, 50.0 3PT% (6 attempts)
Bird 27.2 ppg (16.3 FGA), 9.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, 53.1 FG%, 46.2 3PT% (13 attempts)

So we can conclude head to head in the postseason averaging a near triple double, Bird was a better passer, shooter, and rebounder

We also can conclude that head to head "The GOAT" was 11-23 (.324) vs. Bird

Larry Bird was a better shooter but beyond that they had very different responsibilities just because you have a higher average in a statistical category doesnt make you better. Jordan likely could have averaged 10 assist per game if he wanted to but most of his career he played with specialist pippen was the second scorer most of his career and he was highly skilled but didnt shoot much really because he had a pg mentality. The other scorer most of his career was Toni Kukoc. As for Bird its been said here he had superior teammates which made the game much easier for him from a passing standpoint.