oh I mean the raylan art storyline ONLY!!!
Official JUSTIFIED Discussion Thread UPDATE: They BACK new mini series! Justified: City Primeval
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oh I mean the raylan art storyline ONLY!!!
I'm not going to quote your whole paragraph above but I agree wholeheartedly. The acting that goes into the show that is facial expression hand and body movement in placement eyes, the eyes and make you wonder all of emotion that goes into it. Even though it's late, I'm about to watch it again right now. I loved Wood Harris' acting as he watches brother die.
"They jam so hard you can spread them on your breakfast toast"
"ain't nothing a little oil won't make as smooth as a Bill Clinton apology"
also, that melody that was playing when Boyd saw Ava in the prison. it had me for a second. I know I heard it before I could even picture the artist but couldn't put my finger on it. after looking through famous groups of the 70's I found the group and the song Rhiannon from Fleetwood Mac. I love music. Sometimes a melody can just stick in your craw like a fish bone and when there's a melody are no words sometimes it is even harder to identify. But at least I found this on this time and it didn't keep me up
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Spoiler alert!
If you haven’t seen this week’s episode of Justified — “Wrong Roads” written by Dave Andron and Leonard Chang, directed by Michael Dinner, and guest-starring Eric Roberts as a DEA agent/Ghost of Raylan Future — stop reading now. As he’ll do throughout the season, showrunner Graham Yost takes us inside the writers room.
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Let’s start with the big scene toward the end when Roscoe (Steve Harris) and Jay (Wood Harris) ambush Boyd, Wynn, Picker, and Darryl. Boyd suggests a shootout out of frustration, and then Raylan and Miller walk in: “Miller, would you call this a herd, a gaggle, or a flock of a–holes?” “I would call this a United Nations of a–holes.” It was so good, I kept wanting to press pause so it wouldn’t come to an end.
GRAHAM YOST: That’s Andron and Leonard Chang together, and then Dinner, and then a great cast…. It’s funny, the whole genesis of the episode was that initially one of the Harris brothers was gonna die in the desert in Mexico as part of Hot Rod’s crew. I forget if it was Roscoe or Jay. So we were gonna separate them, and then the remaining brother was gonna be on a revenge mission and looking for Boyd. The Harris brothers didn’t want to do that. They wanted to either play together or not play. So we had to reevaluate quickly, and Andron and Tim [Olyphant], actually, came up with this notion of the two brothers going on this adventure together. And it ended up being a much better episode. We adapted, and it turned into something really fun: It was just the basic setup of one brother’s very verbal and the other one says nothing, and then we go for the big twist [with Roscoe's King Lear analogy] — Steve would suddenly start to speak, and speak well, and be very loquacious.
Miller ends up shooting Roscoe and Jay puts down his gun. Is Roscoe dead?
On Justified, unless you see a doctor pronounce death, a character’s not dead. No. After the episode was so much fun and they were so great, we decided to keep them both alive. Or at least have that possibility, and we’ll see how next year unfolds.
So this is the last we see of them this season?
Yes.
Now let’s back up: Before Raylan headed to Memphis to partner with Miller and search for Hot Rod, Raylan was at a bar when a prostitute chatted him up. I love that she offered to do him for half price.
(Laughs) You know, he’s Raylan. He’s really good-looking. So yeah, she’d give him a discount. That was Tim’s idea, just the notion of setting up for the audience that we think Raylan is still headed to Florida, and then the switcheroo happens at the top of Act 1. He’d be making a phone call saying, “Yeah, I’d like to book a flight,” and everything he’s been talking about through episode 8 and at the beginning of this bar scene seems to indicate that he’s headed to Florida, but of course Raylan being Raylan, he’s actually booking a flight to Memphis. In the bar scene, there’s a brief shot of a bartender — that’s Leonard Chang. He was very nervous about doing it.
Anyone’s nervous. Any writer, it’s like, “Really? I’m gonna be on-camera? Uh… okay.”
Tell me about casting Eric Roberts.
Michael Dinner knows Eric, and Eric was a fan of the show. So we’d been looking from early in the season for what would be a good thing to try to get him to do, and just the idea of him being the Ghost of Raylan Future to a degree was something that appealed to us. The fact that he was willing to do it really appealed to us.
After Raylan and Miller left another DEA agent to watch Roscoe and Jay, those two learned about Hot Rod’s crew being killed in Mexico, escaped, and told their guy watching Hot Rod to get Boyd’s location out of him. Hot Rod said he was going to draw a map to Boyd’s bar and instead stabbed the guy with a pencil. Raylan and Miller found Hot Rod right as he was dying from a bullet wound.
It was one of those hard calls: Do we want to exit a character like Hot Rod? We’ve gotten a lot out of him. But what I said to [Mickey Jones] is, “We’ll give you a good exit.” And that’s a promise we try to live up to on Justified. We wanted to have him do something badass before he died. (Laughs) We thought stabbing a guy in the throat with a pencil is pretty badass.
Watching Miller with Hot Rod in his final moments, sharing his flask, you could almost see Raylan and Boyd. You decided Hot Rod had been a CI for 15 years just as you were breaking this episode?
We just thought it’d be interesting if he had a similar kind of relationship, as you nailed. But I think a little warmer thing has developed between Raylan and Boyd over the course of the series. There’s a lot of history there and some sadness about the way it’s ended up.
You teased in last week’s postmortem that Dave Andron had come up with the idea for when Boyd and Darryl would address Darryl having premeditated what went down in Mexico.
We thought, “Okay, Boyd knows what’s going on. Obviously Darryl knows what’s going on. How long do we want to play that out? Do we want that to be this big thing?” And we were kinda leaning in that direction at the end of the previous episode. Then we thought, “Nah, let’s surprise the audience and have it come out now,” and that was Andron’s idea.
Darryl threatened to have Danny and Dewey, whose GPS woes put them well behind Carl’s truck, abscond with their truckload of heroin if Boyd didn’t make him “part of the goddamn family.”
We wanted Darryl to try to leverage his way into the management, as it were, of the whole enterprise, and to try to get a percentage of the haul instead of just being a hired hand.
Wendy told Kendal that they would leave as soon as she got her cut of whatever Darryl was working on, and he’d never have to see his uncles again if he doesn’t want to. She meant it?
That’s her intent. Things will not work out exactly as she intends, as you will see over the upcoming episodes.
Darryl found the money that Raylan had given Kendal, and Kendal lied and said he’d been stealing from Audrey’s customers. Darryl took the money. End of story?
Sometimes it’s, “Well, we could make a bigger thing of it, but we’ve got so much else to do in these next episodes, let’s just have it come out now.” The poor kid thought he was getting out of there. They’re not getting out of there, and now the money’s been taken. So it’s just a bad situation for Kendal.
Darryl told Wendy that he plans on killing three people to take over the heroin distribution in Kentucky — meaning Boyd, Picker, and Wynn.
That will remain his intent. As you see what happened at the end of this episode, now there’s a big left turn.
Yes. On his way out of town, Miller saw Danny and Dewey’s truck and turned around to pull them over. Danny wanted to try out his 21-foot rule.
It felt fun and like something Miller would play into. It is, I won’t lie, setting something up to come. But I’m not gonna tell you when that’s gonna happen. [Ed. note: The promo for next week's episode seemed to.]
Before Miller and Danny could see who’d win — the shooter or the knifer — Dewey slid behind the wheel of the truck and floored it. Miller took a direct hit. Is he dead?
Did you see a doctor pronounce him dead? It’s Justified. Unless you get a bullet in the head, or directly in the center of the chest… and even then, with Boyd Crowder at the end of the pilot, he survived that. He just got hit by a truck, for God’s sakes. Walk it off. We thought about seeing him again at the top of the next episode, and the episode was getting long, so you won’t. Raylan addresses his condition — injured, hospitalized, but fine.
Danny managed to get out of the way. Was Dewey trying to hit him as well?
Oh, he was intending to hit Danny. But he was really just intending to get the hell out of there. I think Damon [Herriman] was initially resistant to doing the scream at the end, that sort of exultant man-on-fire, kind of here-we-go! scream. But he did it, and it ends up being, I think, a really big moment in the series. I remember when I came to the room and they pitched me [Dewey driving off in the truck]. I went, “Ohmygod, that’s fantastic.” I was just in love with it instantly. We didn’t know exactly where it was gonna go, but we knew it gave us someplace to go in the next episode. Dewey has had his goal from the beginning of the season. The dream kinda changes, but it’s Dewey Crowe is owed and Dewey Crowe’s gonna get his, dammit. That’s a big part of what the next episode is about: Now Dewey’s got kilos of heroin. What’s he gonna do with that?
Moving on to Ava: Boyd was finally able to visit her and she was understandably cold. Does he comprehend how upset she is right now?
He understands. Our feeling is that he’s been busy doing things that are, in many ways, in the service of trying to make money so he can figure a way to get her out of jail. But he hasn’t seen her in a while, and a lot has transpired in Ava’s life in episodes 6, 7, and 8. She is in a tough situation, so she’s not really in the mood for chit-chat. We wanted that sense of tension and estrangement.
The prison nurse, Rowena, found Boyd and told him she wanted him to kill the person responsible for murdering her former partner. It turned out to be an old man whose wife had died of an overdose while doing time for check fraud. Boyd told the man he’d send him away, set him up for life. Did he mean it in that moment, or was it always just a play to get him out of the nursing home where it’d be easier to off him?
Yeah.
Anything we haven’t touched on? The brilliance of Wynn Duffy ordering new coffee because his smells like his “a– on Sunday”?
(Laughs) It’s Dave and Leonard, and then Jere Burns, who’s just great. You have seen a certain contentiousness starting to develop between Duffy and Picker. That’s something that will amp up, especially in the next episode.
If you haven’t seen this week’s episode of Justified — “Wrong Roads” written by Dave Andron and Leonard Chang, directed by Michael Dinner, and guest-starring Eric Roberts as a DEA agent/Ghost of Raylan Future — stop reading now. As he’ll do throughout the season, showrunner Graham Yost takes us inside the writers room.
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Let’s start with the big scene toward the end when Roscoe (Steve Harris) and Jay (Wood Harris) ambush Boyd, Wynn, Picker, and Darryl. Boyd suggests a shootout out of frustration, and then Raylan and Miller walk in: “Miller, would you call this a herd, a gaggle, or a flock of a–holes?” “I would call this a United Nations of a–holes.” It was so good, I kept wanting to press pause so it wouldn’t come to an end.
GRAHAM YOST: That’s Andron and Leonard Chang together, and then Dinner, and then a great cast…. It’s funny, the whole genesis of the episode was that initially one of the Harris brothers was gonna die in the desert in Mexico as part of Hot Rod’s crew. I forget if it was Roscoe or Jay. So we were gonna separate them, and then the remaining brother was gonna be on a revenge mission and looking for Boyd. The Harris brothers didn’t want to do that. They wanted to either play together or not play. So we had to reevaluate quickly, and Andron and Tim [Olyphant], actually, came up with this notion of the two brothers going on this adventure together. And it ended up being a much better episode. We adapted, and it turned into something really fun: It was just the basic setup of one brother’s very verbal and the other one says nothing, and then we go for the big twist [with Roscoe's King Lear analogy] — Steve would suddenly start to speak, and speak well, and be very loquacious.
Miller ends up shooting Roscoe and Jay puts down his gun. Is Roscoe dead?
On Justified, unless you see a doctor pronounce death, a character’s not dead. No. After the episode was so much fun and they were so great, we decided to keep them both alive. Or at least have that possibility, and we’ll see how next year unfolds.
So this is the last we see of them this season?
Yes.
Now let’s back up: Before Raylan headed to Memphis to partner with Miller and search for Hot Rod, Raylan was at a bar when a prostitute chatted him up. I love that she offered to do him for half price.
(Laughs) You know, he’s Raylan. He’s really good-looking. So yeah, she’d give him a discount. That was Tim’s idea, just the notion of setting up for the audience that we think Raylan is still headed to Florida, and then the switcheroo happens at the top of Act 1. He’d be making a phone call saying, “Yeah, I’d like to book a flight,” and everything he’s been talking about through episode 8 and at the beginning of this bar scene seems to indicate that he’s headed to Florida, but of course Raylan being Raylan, he’s actually booking a flight to Memphis. In the bar scene, there’s a brief shot of a bartender — that’s Leonard Chang. He was very nervous about doing it.
Anyone’s nervous. Any writer, it’s like, “Really? I’m gonna be on-camera? Uh… okay.”
Tell me about casting Eric Roberts.
Michael Dinner knows Eric, and Eric was a fan of the show. So we’d been looking from early in the season for what would be a good thing to try to get him to do, and just the idea of him being the Ghost of Raylan Future to a degree was something that appealed to us. The fact that he was willing to do it really appealed to us.
After Raylan and Miller left another DEA agent to watch Roscoe and Jay, those two learned about Hot Rod’s crew being killed in Mexico, escaped, and told their guy watching Hot Rod to get Boyd’s location out of him. Hot Rod said he was going to draw a map to Boyd’s bar and instead stabbed the guy with a pencil. Raylan and Miller found Hot Rod right as he was dying from a bullet wound.
It was one of those hard calls: Do we want to exit a character like Hot Rod? We’ve gotten a lot out of him. But what I said to [Mickey Jones] is, “We’ll give you a good exit.” And that’s a promise we try to live up to on Justified. We wanted to have him do something badass before he died. (Laughs) We thought stabbing a guy in the throat with a pencil is pretty badass.
Watching Miller with Hot Rod in his final moments, sharing his flask, you could almost see Raylan and Boyd. You decided Hot Rod had been a CI for 15 years just as you were breaking this episode?
We just thought it’d be interesting if he had a similar kind of relationship, as you nailed. But I think a little warmer thing has developed between Raylan and Boyd over the course of the series. There’s a lot of history there and some sadness about the way it’s ended up.
You teased in last week’s postmortem that Dave Andron had come up with the idea for when Boyd and Darryl would address Darryl having premeditated what went down in Mexico.
We thought, “Okay, Boyd knows what’s going on. Obviously Darryl knows what’s going on. How long do we want to play that out? Do we want that to be this big thing?” And we were kinda leaning in that direction at the end of the previous episode. Then we thought, “Nah, let’s surprise the audience and have it come out now,” and that was Andron’s idea.
Darryl threatened to have Danny and Dewey, whose GPS woes put them well behind Carl’s truck, abscond with their truckload of heroin if Boyd didn’t make him “part of the goddamn family.”
We wanted Darryl to try to leverage his way into the management, as it were, of the whole enterprise, and to try to get a percentage of the haul instead of just being a hired hand.
Wendy told Kendal that they would leave as soon as she got her cut of whatever Darryl was working on, and he’d never have to see his uncles again if he doesn’t want to. She meant it?
That’s her intent. Things will not work out exactly as she intends, as you will see over the upcoming episodes.
Darryl found the money that Raylan had given Kendal, and Kendal lied and said he’d been stealing from Audrey’s customers. Darryl took the money. End of story?
Sometimes it’s, “Well, we could make a bigger thing of it, but we’ve got so much else to do in these next episodes, let’s just have it come out now.” The poor kid thought he was getting out of there. They’re not getting out of there, and now the money’s been taken. So it’s just a bad situation for Kendal.
Darryl told Wendy that he plans on killing three people to take over the heroin distribution in Kentucky — meaning Boyd, Picker, and Wynn.
That will remain his intent. As you see what happened at the end of this episode, now there’s a big left turn.
Yes. On his way out of town, Miller saw Danny and Dewey’s truck and turned around to pull them over. Danny wanted to try out his 21-foot rule.
It felt fun and like something Miller would play into. It is, I won’t lie, setting something up to come. But I’m not gonna tell you when that’s gonna happen. [Ed. note: The promo for next week's episode seemed to.]
Before Miller and Danny could see who’d win — the shooter or the knifer — Dewey slid behind the wheel of the truck and floored it. Miller took a direct hit. Is he dead?
Did you see a doctor pronounce him dead? It’s Justified. Unless you get a bullet in the head, or directly in the center of the chest… and even then, with Boyd Crowder at the end of the pilot, he survived that. He just got hit by a truck, for God’s sakes. Walk it off. We thought about seeing him again at the top of the next episode, and the episode was getting long, so you won’t. Raylan addresses his condition — injured, hospitalized, but fine.
Danny managed to get out of the way. Was Dewey trying to hit him as well?
Oh, he was intending to hit Danny. But he was really just intending to get the hell out of there. I think Damon [Herriman] was initially resistant to doing the scream at the end, that sort of exultant man-on-fire, kind of here-we-go! scream. But he did it, and it ends up being, I think, a really big moment in the series. I remember when I came to the room and they pitched me [Dewey driving off in the truck]. I went, “Ohmygod, that’s fantastic.” I was just in love with it instantly. We didn’t know exactly where it was gonna go, but we knew it gave us someplace to go in the next episode. Dewey has had his goal from the beginning of the season. The dream kinda changes, but it’s Dewey Crowe is owed and Dewey Crowe’s gonna get his, dammit. That’s a big part of what the next episode is about: Now Dewey’s got kilos of heroin. What’s he gonna do with that?
Moving on to Ava: Boyd was finally able to visit her and she was understandably cold. Does he comprehend how upset she is right now?
He understands. Our feeling is that he’s been busy doing things that are, in many ways, in the service of trying to make money so he can figure a way to get her out of jail. But he hasn’t seen her in a while, and a lot has transpired in Ava’s life in episodes 6, 7, and 8. She is in a tough situation, so she’s not really in the mood for chit-chat. We wanted that sense of tension and estrangement.
The prison nurse, Rowena, found Boyd and told him she wanted him to kill the person responsible for murdering her former partner. It turned out to be an old man whose wife had died of an overdose while doing time for check fraud. Boyd told the man he’d send him away, set him up for life. Did he mean it in that moment, or was it always just a play to get him out of the nursing home where it’d be easier to off him?
You know, I will say that story line evolved. It changed a lot. We did have a version where Boyd did let him go free and that wasn’t enough to satisfy Rowena, and so she was very upset. Then Walton [Goggins] was saying, “You know what, I think Boyd would go through with it.” He’s killed so many people, especially this season. But it takes a toll. As Boyd says, killing an old man in a nursing home is not on his bucket list. It’s not something that’s easy for him to do. And, in fact, he gets Jimmy to do it, and that’s not what Jimmy’s signed up for — killing an old man in a truck along the side of the road. So there is a cost. But he does accomplish what Rowena had asked.
And that plays into what you’ve been saying all season: Ava thinks she’s solved one problem and a new, worse one replaces it. Now Rowena is telling her she needs to kill Judith. That’s something Ava begins to deal with next week?
Yeah.
Anything we haven’t touched on? The brilliance of Wynn Duffy ordering new coffee because his smells like his “a– on Sunday”?
(Laughs) It’s Dave and Leonard, and then Jere Burns, who’s just great. You have seen a certain contentiousness starting to develop between Duffy and Picker. That’s something that will amp up, especially in the next episode.
i can't stop laughing. this fool Boyd asked to be excused from the table
The reason. Not the need.
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that was outstanding and completely accurate analysis.The fact that I had friends who knew I studied Shakespeare ask me about it and then Google it shows the power of TV and good writing.
http://www.pbs.org/arts/work/king-lear-full-video/
and got it posted on the other forum
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Dont think Dewey or His 21 foot rule cuz going to make it out this season. Looks like Raylin gonna shoot him this next episode.
I binged watch season 2 this weekend, And Im now like damn Dicky Bennett got 9 lives.
And its also the season where Boyd robbed Hotrod.
Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid? (Part 1)
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weap...ense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.
Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.
The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.
Recently a Force Science News member, a deputy sheriff from Texas, suggested that "it's time for a fresh look" at the underlying principles of edged-weapon defense, to see if they are "upheld by fresh research." He observed that "the knife culture is growing, not shrinking," with many people, including the homeless, "carrying significant blades on the street." He noted that compared to scientific findings, "anecdotal evidence is not good enough when an officer is in court defending against a wrongful death claim because he felt he had to shoot some[body] with a knife at 0-dark:30 a.m."
As a prelude to more extensive studies of edged-weapon-related issues, the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato has responded by reexamining the 21-Foot Rule, arguably the most widely taught and commonly remembered element of edged-weapon defense.
After testing the Rule against FSRC's landmark findings on action-reaction times and conferring with selected members of its National and Technical Advisory Boards, the Center has reached these conclusions, according to Executive Director Dr. Bill Lewinski:
1. Because of a prevalent misinterpretation, the 21-Foot Rule has been dangerously corrupted.
2. When properly understood, the 21-Foot Rule is still valid in certain limited circumstances.
3. For many officers and situations, a 21-foot reactionary gap is not sufficient.
4. The weapon that officers often think they can depend on to defeat knife attacks can't be relied upon to protect them in many cases.
5. Training in edged-weapon defense should by no means be abandoned.
In this installment of our 2-part series, we'll examine the first two points. The others will be explained in Part 2.
1. MISINTERPRETATION
"Unfortunately, some officers and apparently some trainers as well have 'streamlined' the 21-Foot Rule in a way that gravely distorts its meaning and exposes them to highly undesirable legal consequences," Lewinski says. Namely, they have come to believe that the Rule means that a subject brandishing an edged weapon when positioned at any distance less than 21 feet from an officer can justifiably be shot.
Statements like that, Lewinski says, "have led officers to believe that no matter what position they're in, even with their gun on target and their finger on the trigger, they are in extreme danger at 21 feet. They believe they don't have a chance of surviving unless they preempt the suspect by shooting.
"However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision.
Lewinski believes the misconception of the 21-Foot Rule has become so common that some academies and in-service training programs now are reluctant to include the Rule as part of their edged-weapon defense instruction for fear of non-righteous shootings resulting.
"When you talk about the 21-Foot Rule, you have to understand what it really means when fully articulated correctly in order to judge its value as a law enforcement concept," Lewinski says. "And it does not mean 'less than 21 feet automatically equals shoot.'"
2. VALIDITY
In real-world encounters, many variables affect time, which is the key component of the 21-Foot Rule.
What is the training skill and stress level of the officer? How fast and agile is he?
How alert is he to preliminary cues to aggressive movement?
How agile and fast is the suspect?
Is he drunk and stumbling, or a young guy in a ninja outfit ready to rock and roll?
How adept is the officer at drawing his holstered weapon?
What kind of holster does he have? What's the terrain?
If it's outdoors, is the ground bumpy or pocked with holes?
Is the suspect running on concrete, or on grass, or through snow and across ice?
Is the officer uphill and the suspect downhill, or vice versa?
If it's indoors, is the officer at the foot of stairs and the suspect above him, or vice versa?
Are there obstacles between them? And so on.
These factors and others can impact the validity of the 21-Foot Rule because they affect an attacking suspect's speed in reaching the officer, and the officer's speed in reacting to the threatening charge.
The 21-Foot Rule was formulated by timing subjects beginning their headlong run from a dead stop on a flat surface offering good traction and officers standing stationary on the same plane, sidearm holstered and snapped in. The FSRC has extensively measured action and reaction times under these same conditions. Among other things, the Center has documented the time it takes officers to make 20 different actions that are common in deadly force encounters. Here are some of the relevant findings that the FSRC applied in reevaluating the 21-Foot Rule:
Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.
The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.
For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.
Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.
Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.
Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.
But many unpredictable variables that are inevitable in the field prevent a precise, all-encompassing truism from being fashioned from controlled "laboratory" research.
"If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, 'Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why'd you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?'"
Be able to articulate why you felt yourself or other innocent party to be in "imminent or immediate life-threatening jeopardy and why the threat would have been substantially accentuated if you had delayed," Everett advises. You need specifically to mention the first articulable motion that indicated the subject was about to attack and was beyond your ability to influence verbally."
And remember: No single 'rule' can arbitrarily be used to determine when a particular level of force is lawful. The 21-Foot Rule has value as a rough guideline, illustrating the reactionary curve, but it is by no means an absolute.
"The Supreme Court's landmark use-of-force decision, in Graham v. Connor, established a 'reasonableness' standard," Everett reminds. "You'll be judged ultimately according to what a 'reasonable' officer would have done. All of the facts and circumstances that make up the dynamics between you and the subject will be evaluated."
Of course, some important facts may be subtle and now widely known or understood. That's where FSRC's unique findings on lethal-force dynamics fit in. Explains Lewinski: "The FSRC's research will add to your ability to articulate and explain the facts and circumstances and how they influenced your decision to use force."
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weap...ense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.
Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.
The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.
Recently a Force Science News member, a deputy sheriff from Texas, suggested that "it's time for a fresh look" at the underlying principles of edged-weapon defense, to see if they are "upheld by fresh research." He observed that "the knife culture is growing, not shrinking," with many people, including the homeless, "carrying significant blades on the street." He noted that compared to scientific findings, "anecdotal evidence is not good enough when an officer is in court defending against a wrongful death claim because he felt he had to shoot some[body] with a knife at 0-dark:30 a.m."
As a prelude to more extensive studies of edged-weapon-related issues, the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato has responded by reexamining the 21-Foot Rule, arguably the most widely taught and commonly remembered element of edged-weapon defense.
After testing the Rule against FSRC's landmark findings on action-reaction times and conferring with selected members of its National and Technical Advisory Boards, the Center has reached these conclusions, according to Executive Director Dr. Bill Lewinski:
1. Because of a prevalent misinterpretation, the 21-Foot Rule has been dangerously corrupted.
2. When properly understood, the 21-Foot Rule is still valid in certain limited circumstances.
3. For many officers and situations, a 21-foot reactionary gap is not sufficient.
4. The weapon that officers often think they can depend on to defeat knife attacks can't be relied upon to protect them in many cases.
5. Training in edged-weapon defense should by no means be abandoned.
In this installment of our 2-part series, we'll examine the first two points. The others will be explained in Part 2.
1. MISINTERPRETATION
"Unfortunately, some officers and apparently some trainers as well have 'streamlined' the 21-Foot Rule in a way that gravely distorts its meaning and exposes them to highly undesirable legal consequences," Lewinski says. Namely, they have come to believe that the Rule means that a subject brandishing an edged weapon when positioned at any distance less than 21 feet from an officer can justifiably be shot.
For example, an article on the 21-Foot Rule in a highly respected LE magazine states in its opening sentence that "a suspect armed with an edged weapon and within twenty-one feet of a police officer presents a deadly threat." The "common knowledge" that "deadly force against him is justified" has long been "accepted in police and court circles," the article continues.
Statements like that, Lewinski says, "have led officers to believe that no matter what position they're in, even with their gun on target and their finger on the trigger, they are in extreme danger at 21 feet. They believe they don't have a chance of surviving unless they preempt the suspect by shooting.
"However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision.
"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges."
Lewinski believes the misconception of the 21-Foot Rule has become so common that some academies and in-service training programs now are reluctant to include the Rule as part of their edged-weapon defense instruction for fear of non-righteous shootings resulting.
"When you talk about the 21-Foot Rule, you have to understand what it really means when fully articulated correctly in order to judge its value as a law enforcement concept," Lewinski says. "And it does not mean 'less than 21 feet automatically equals shoot.'"
2. VALIDITY
In real-world encounters, many variables affect time, which is the key component of the 21-Foot Rule.
What is the training skill and stress level of the officer? How fast and agile is he?
How alert is he to preliminary cues to aggressive movement?
How agile and fast is the suspect?
Is he drunk and stumbling, or a young guy in a ninja outfit ready to rock and roll?
How adept is the officer at drawing his holstered weapon?
What kind of holster does he have? What's the terrain?
If it's outdoors, is the ground bumpy or pocked with holes?
Is the suspect running on concrete, or on grass, or through snow and across ice?
Is the officer uphill and the suspect downhill, or vice versa?
If it's indoors, is the officer at the foot of stairs and the suspect above him, or vice versa?
Are there obstacles between them? And so on.
These factors and others can impact the validity of the 21-Foot Rule because they affect an attacking suspect's speed in reaching the officer, and the officer's speed in reacting to the threatening charge.
The 21-Foot Rule was formulated by timing subjects beginning their headlong run from a dead stop on a flat surface offering good traction and officers standing stationary on the same plane, sidearm holstered and snapped in. The FSRC has extensively measured action and reaction times under these same conditions. Among other things, the Center has documented the time it takes officers to make 20 different actions that are common in deadly force encounters. Here are some of the relevant findings that the FSRC applied in reevaluating the 21-Foot Rule:
Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.
The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.
For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.
Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.
The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.
Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.
Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.
But many unpredictable variables that are inevitable in the field prevent a precise, all-encompassing truism from being fashioned from controlled "laboratory" research.
"If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, 'Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why'd you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?'"
Be able to articulate why you felt yourself or other innocent party to be in "imminent or immediate life-threatening jeopardy and why the threat would have been substantially accentuated if you had delayed," Everett advises. You need specifically to mention the first articulable motion that indicated the subject was about to attack and was beyond your ability to influence verbally."
And remember: No single 'rule' can arbitrarily be used to determine when a particular level of force is lawful. The 21-Foot Rule has value as a rough guideline, illustrating the reactionary curve, but it is by no means an absolute.
"The Supreme Court's landmark use-of-force decision, in Graham v. Connor, established a 'reasonableness' standard," Everett reminds. "You'll be judged ultimately according to what a 'reasonable' officer would have done. All of the facts and circumstances that make up the dynamics between you and the subject will be evaluated."
Of course, some important facts may be subtle and now widely known or understood. That's where FSRC's unique findings on lethal-force dynamics fit in. Explains Lewinski: "The FSRC's research will add to your ability to articulate and explain the facts and circumstances and how they influenced your decision to use force."
I'm hating that this season is nearing the end. What's worse is that I have to wait weekly like everybody else does. When I got onto the wire the show was already off the air so I could watch it without pause. Now with this show I am already caught up so I have to wait. I look forward to the show every week as soon as 11 30 hits I look online to see if I can find the episode so no commercials
at least they aint doing that mini season garbage like Mad Men
c/s 100%... I be doing the same thing, I wish Netflix had Justified
it wouldn't matter if netflix had justified, they would not show the current season. i download all of my favorite TV series to avoid watching them with commercials. Scandal, Hannibal, Archer, TWD. I don't know why I get annoyed by commercials, but even though I have the channels it's much easier when I do it this way. Plus, if I want to re watch the show I can do it
"You have any idea what I have had to do out here for you? "
She giving up and Boyd has made a body count on the outside for her.
She giving up and Boyd has made a body count on the outside for her.
God dammit we still dont know if the 21 foot rule works!!!! 
no shit, sherlock ...i know how it works
Damn Is Art going to make it?
SN Fargo looks like its going to be good as fuck.
SN Fargo looks like its going to be good as fuck.
Man the 21 foot shit reminds me of the one season when the dude would put the gun in the middle of the table and stab u when u reach for it ...
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aww man, I laughed so hard thinking about that. That was so very clever by Raylan. more than one way to skin a cat
"Aww shit Danny, I would have said something if I would have known. "
"No I didnt shoot him, It was more like an act of God really"
Sad part Crowes dropping like flies, and Detroit dude done put it in Duffy head to go against Boyd.
"No I didnt shoot him, It was more like an act of God really"
Sad part Crowes dropping like flies, and Detroit dude done put it in Duffy head to go against Boyd.
What a great example of self ownage by Danny. Ironically, killed by the hole dug for his dead dog...
what a fucking dumbass
what a fucking dumbass
I'm just getting caught up. Watching Season 5, Episode 3. Michael Rappaport is talking with Dewey Crowder, asking Dewey why he allowed Boyd to rip him off on the Whorehouse... He's asking Dewey why he bought a whorehouse without 'Curb Appeal'... I'm dying right now
"You have any idea what I have had to do out here for you? "
She giving up and Boyd has made a body count on the outside for her.
Ava is the most confusing character but damnit she fascinates me. She got HERSELF arrested then IMMEDIATELY regretted her decision had COMPLETE faith in Boyd and then LOST i, she was gonna kill the mother then changed her mind and ended up killing her anyway.t. She just...damn I don't know.
God dammit we still dont know if the 21 foot rule works!!!!
yup
I knew they had to do something like this to repair the rift between them and contrast with what happened to Raylan's dad earlier...
that was the definition of cool and for ME fully established EVERYTHING about the character.
that was Eastwood Han Solo Indiana Jones all in one.
"Aww shit Danny, I would have said something if I would have known. "
"No I didnt shoot him, It was more like an act of God really"
Sad part Crowes dropping like flies, and Detroit dude done put it in Duffy head to go against Boyd.
I'm just getting caught up. Watching Season 5, Episode 3. Michael Rappaport is talking with Dewey Crowder, asking Dewey why he allowed Boyd to rip him off on the Whorehouse... He's asking Dewey why he bought a whorehouse without 'Curb Appeal'... I'm dying right now
the entire crew of Justified is just styling now...
the ability to be THAT funny and THAT TRAGIC at the same time???
C'mon!!!
When Raylan asks Dewey 'who is your co-pilot?' and he actually turns to right to look at his EMPTY passenger seat just t o check?
And Fargo series looks OUTSTANDING!!! Gotta rewatch that movie before I watch it.
and it was like Kendall's revenge.
I think I will try to do that for all the shows now.
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what the hell is SN Fargo?
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Remember when Ray first met Chelsea, and he said, " She's got a huge set of balls! "
Gotta check that ep again. Sounds like it was more of a running joke about Crowe stupidity. Thanks.
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