NBA Point Guard Mt. Rushmore
- Thread starter Art Vandelay
- Start date
Hard to argue this list. I would give Jason Kidd honorable mention, but he can't beat out those four.
It's funny how comments and the actual polls can be different. 23 people have voted so far and there are multiple votes for Payton (8!), Kidd (6), Frazier (4) and Cousy (3).
statistically speaking, Chris Paul is the best PG in NBA History yet isn't even an option.
The OP has made it clear from the other thread the type of agenda he has with these posts.
What agenda could I possibly have?
Most people do not put Chris Paul in the conversation of the very greatest PGs ever.
Maybe I undervalue him.
Make that case.
Vote other.
Chris Paul can be a part of the conversation. That option is there.
statistically speaking, Chris Paul is the best PG in NBA History yet isn't even an option.
The OP has made it clear from the other thread the type of agenda he has with these posts.
O rly? Stats please...
Gary Payton got three more votes in the past 12 minutes! Why don't any Payton people make the case for him?
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Kidd over Robertson? Why?
2 guys get on because they played against superior competition and were better than them - Big O and Clyde
one is just freaky - Magic
one is so versatile and disruptive, he's almost impossible to stop - Zeke
there ya go - Big O
Clyde
Magic
Zeke
passing, defense, shooting, rebounding, and the most important and hard to quantify - making your teammates better.
one is just freaky - Magic
one is so versatile and disruptive, he's almost impossible to stop - Zeke
there ya go - Big O
Clyde
Magic
Zeke
passing, defense, shooting, rebounding, and the most important and hard to quantify - making your teammates better.
statistically speaking, Chris Paul is the best PG in NBA History yet isn't even an option.
The OP has made it clear from the other thread the type of agenda he has with these posts.
xfactor Online!
Superstar ****
Care to explain???
...
Fun Facts:
Jason Kidd lead a team full of "Ehhh" Players to Back to Back NBA Finals Appearances.
Oscar Robertson spent most of his career on Losing teams
Oscar Robertson missed the playoffs entirely 3 years in a row in his Prime (from age 29 to age 31) and was swept out of playoffs the years before he missed the entire playoffs 3 years in a row.
Oscar Robertson is a Career Loser.
If Jason Kidd came into league the same time as Oscar Robertson, Jason Kidd would have averaged a Triple Double for his Entire Career. (in a league w/ much faster pace and much more rebounds to grab)
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I know it isn't popular opinion because of the arcade numbers back then, but I feel the same. Plus his size of 6'5" and athletic ability gave him more of an advantage back then when compared to a 6'4" Kidd in the modern era.
Payton at 6'4" would have went crazy in the 60s(especially 62 arcade numbers). What about Anfernee when he ran point?
statistically speaking, Chris Paul is the best PG in NBA History yet isn't even an option.
The OP has made it clear from the other thread the type of agenda he has with these posts.
He's not the only one missing. What about Earl "The Pearl" Monroe?
And I believe Kidd should be there but you can not take Oscar, a man who averaged a triple double for a SEASON off because we like Jason Kidd
With 1 NBA Finals win to show for it in 9 contests.
But actually LED his team to a ring as a star player, unlike Kidd who got 1 as a role player behind Dirk. And let's not act like Oscar played on loaded teams like MJ (Pippen,Rodman), Bird (McHale, Parrish), or Magic (Kareem, Worthy). You cant name 1 of his Cincinnati Royals teammates without google. When he finally got a quality support, he won a title.
No talent around him.
So is Jordan without Pippen, and you ride his balls religiously. You cant tell me 1 great thing Jordan accomplished or won without Scottie by his side. Thats why when he leaves this earth and the shoes aint selling no mo, history wont remember him as GOAT over guys like Wilt, Kareem, LeBron, Russ, etc. Part of the greatest duo, but greatest individual talent? FOH!
So now we're projecting on what we think guys could do, versus what they actually DID do. ROFL. Lets you know how these guys just dont compare. If Jason Kidd came into the league the same time as Big O, he would be considered a poorly conditioned athlete. Playing at a superfast pace where teams regularly scored 120 a night (with no 3 point line!!!), Oscar averaged 42.2 minutes for a career and played over 40 minutes a night in 10 different seasons. 10!!! Playing at a snails pace, with TV timeouts every 4 minutes, and "walk the ball up" offenses Jason Kidd averaged 36 minutes per game for a career. He went over 40 minutes per game just ONCE, and never led the league in minutes, unlike Big O in '65. He would not be considered a "tough" athlete in that era playing so few minutes. And I question how he would fare at that high speed pace.
If Jason Kidd came into the league the same time as Big O, he would have 15,541 points instead of 17,529 because there was no 3 point line. Bringing his 12.6 points per game average down EVEN LOWER! Big O averaged over 30 points per game 7 times with no 3 point line and has 1 scoring title in the era of Wilt. Jason Kidd's 40% shooting from the field is much worse than Big O's 48.5% in an era where typically FG%'s were much lower than today's modern era. Jason Kidd never averaged 30 PPG on any level, high school, college, or pro. It would be ASININE to imply he could in any NBA era. If Jason Kidd came into the league the same time as Big O, he wouldn't have his 5 assist titles as he'd be coming into 2nd or 3rd most years with his totals. Big O has 7, and did it in an era that was much tougher on giving players assist than they do today.
You guys need to stop tryna discredit HOF legends you know very little about, just say I didnt see the guy play so Ima give player X the nod over him instead of trying to act like dudes who were better than your 80s and 90s era heroes (whom you overrate because thats all you know) couldnt ball. You look and sound foolish. Without Oscar Robertson, guys like Magic Johnson & Jason Kidd wouldnt've existed as PGs. He paved the way for them as the first "big PG".
As for my 4 PGs:
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, John Stockton
The Fact of the Matter is that I Posted Facts. Not Opinions and False Facts, as you did.With 1 NBA Finals win to show for it in 9 contests.
But actually LED his team to a ring as a star player, unlike Kidd who got 1 as a role player behind Dirk. And let's not act like Oscar played on loaded teams like MJ (Pippen,Rodman), Bird (McHale, Parrish), or Magic (Kareem, Worthy). You cant name 1 of his Cincinnati Royals teammates without google. When he finally got a quality support, he won a title.
No talent around him.
So is Jordan without Pippen, and you ride his balls religiously. You cant tell me 1 great thing Jordan accomplished or won without Scottie by his side. Thats why when he leaves this earth and the shoes aint selling no mo, history wont remember him as GOAT over guys like Wilt, Kareem, LeBron, Russ, etc. Part of the greatest duo, but greatest individual talent? FOH!
So now we're projecting on what we think guys could do, versus what they actually DID do. ROFL. Lets you know how these guys just dont compare. If Jason Kidd came into the league the same time as Big O, he would be considered a poorly conditioned athlete. Playing at a superfast pace where teams regularly scored 120 a night (with no 3 point line!!!), Oscar averaged 42.2 minutes for a career and played over 40 minutes a night in 10 different seasons. 10!!! Playing at a snails pace, with TV timeouts every 4 minutes, and "walk the ball up" offenses Jason Kidd averaged 36 minutes per game for a career. He went over 40 minutes per game just ONCE, and never led the league in minutes, unlike Big O in '65. He would not be considered a "tough" athlete in that era playing so few minutes. And I question how he would fare at that high speed pace.
If Jason Kidd came into the league the same time as Big O, he would have 15,541 points instead of 17,529 because there was no 3 point line. Bringing his 12.6 points per game average down EVEN LOWER! Big O averaged over 30 points per game 7 times with no 3 point line and has 1 scoring title in the era of Wilt. Jason Kidd's 40% shooting from the field is much worse than Big O's 48.5% in an era where typically FG%'s were much lower than today's modern era. Jason Kidd never averaged 30 PPG on any level, high school, college, or pro. It would be ASININE to imply he could in any NBA era. If Jason Kidd came into the league the same time as Big O, he wouldn't have his 5 assist titles as he'd be coming into 2nd or 3rd most years with his totals. Big O has 7, and did it in an era that was much tougher on giving players assist than they do today.
You guys need to stop tryna discredit HOF legends you know very little about, just say I didnt see the guy play so Ima give player X the nod over him instead of trying to act like dudes who were better than your 80s and 90s era heroes (whom you overrate because thats all you know) couldnt ball. You look and sound foolish. Without Oscar Robertson, guys like Magic Johnson & Jason Kidd wouldnt've existed as PGs. He paved the way for them as the first "big PG".
As for my 4 PGs:
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, John Stockton
Jordan won a NCAA championship All because of him...Truth.
Jordan won a Olympic Gold Medal in 84 w/ college players when Gold was Not Guaranteed to Win all because of his play....Truth.
Thats all He could have Possibly won w/o Pippen being that he got Drafted to a Scrub team and Pip was drafted after Jordans 2nd Full season as a Pro.
U Posted Lies.. Kidd has more than 1 Win in the NBA Finals...Lie
Oscar Robertson did NOT Lead "his team" to the NBA Finals... Lie
Truth: Lew Alcindor Lead HIS team to a Championship while Oscar Road his coat tail.
Your Whole Argument is Based on Lies.
This is Why u Never "Win".
I Post Facts and 1 educated opinion, You post uneducated opinions and a Bunch of Lies to back it up..
Oscar was in the Prime of his career and he cant make the playoffs 3 years in a Row.. If u are supposed to Best of the Best, you are supposed to be able to make your team better, ESPECIALLY a PG.
Dude was the Shareef Abdur-Rahim of his Generation in terms of Losing.
If Kidd came into the League when Oscar did, Kidd would have averaged a Triple double for his Career. based on having 70 to 80 more possessions a game, the extraordinary low shooting percentages and rebounds available...
Peace.
The Fact of the Matter is that I Posted Facts. Not Opinions and False Facts, as you did.
Jordan won a NCAA championship All because of him...Truth.
Jordan won a Olympic Gold Medal in 84 w/ college players when Gold was Not Guaranteed to Win all because of his play....Truth.
Thats all He could have Possibly won w/o Pippen being that he got Drafted to a Scrub team and Pip was drafted after Jordans 2nd Full season as a Pro.
U Posted Lies.. Kidd has more than 1 Win in the NBA Finals...Lie
Oscar Robertson did NOT Lead "his team" to the NBA Finals... Lie
Truth: Lew Alcindor Lead HIS team to a Championship while Oscar Road his coat tail.
Your Whole Argument is Based on Lies.
This is Why u Never "Win".
I Post Facts and 1 educated opinion, You post uneducated opinions and a Bunch of Lies to back it up..
Oscar was in the Prime of his career and he cant make the playoffs 3 years in a Row.. If u are supposed to Best of the Best, you are supposed to be able to make your team better, ESPECIALLY a PG.
Dude was the Shareef Abdur-Rahim of his Generation in terms of Losing.
If Kidd came into the League when Oscar did, Kidd would have averaged a Triple double for his Career. based on having 70 to 80 more possessions a game, the extraordinary low shooting percentages and rebounds available.
Peace.
Jordan won a NCAA championship All because of him...Truth.
Jordan won a Olympic Gold Medal in 84 w/ college players when Gold was Not Guaranteed to Win all because of his play....Truth.
Thats all He could have Possibly won w/o Pippen being that he got Drafted to a Scrub team and Pip was drafted after Jordans 2nd Full season as a Pro.
U Posted Lies.. Kidd has more than 1 Win in the NBA Finals...Lie
Oscar Robertson did NOT Lead "his team" to the NBA Finals... Lie
Truth: Lew Alcindor Lead HIS team to a Championship while Oscar Road his coat tail.
Your Whole Argument is Based on Lies.
This is Why u Never "Win".
I Post Facts and 1 educated opinion, You post uneducated opinions and a Bunch of Lies to back it up..
Oscar was in the Prime of his career and he cant make the playoffs 3 years in a Row.. If u are supposed to Best of the Best, you are supposed to be able to make your team better, ESPECIALLY a PG.
Dude was the Shareef Abdur-Rahim of his Generation in terms of Losing.
If Kidd came into the League when Oscar did, Kidd would have averaged a Triple double for his Career. based on having 70 to 80 more possessions a game, the extraordinary low shooting percentages and rebounds available.
Peace.
Chris Paul stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
CP3 9 year Pro stats are Similar to Isiah Thomas' 1st 9 years in stats.
Only difference is CP3 didnt Have to deal w/ that "Nigga Shit" in the Paint as Isiah Did.
Dude was the third leading scorer on his squad. The team was LED by James Worthy & Sam Perkins. Worthy went on to be the #1 overall pick that year. MJ hit the game winner and everyone acts like he did something.
He had 16 points that game, Big Game James had 28 and was named Tourney MVP. The next 2 years, MJ was the clear cut leader of the squad averaging 20 points and 19.6 points per game the next 2 seasons. In his sophomore season the Heels were a #2 seed going into the tourney and couldnt make it back to the Final 4. The following year, they went 27-2 going into the tourney with a #1 seed. MJ was the collegiate player of the year, so they were guaranteed an NCAA title right? NOPE. MJ choked with only 13 points against Indiana (white boys) in his last game and the Heels were bounced before the Sweet 16.He won that gold medal against some of the weakest comp ever. Tell me some of the foreign NBA players that Olympic team faced? And yall got the gall to question Big Wiltie's and Big O's competition.
Speaking of which, MJ's team featured 4 of the top 5 collegiate all americans at that time. Jordan, Pat Ewing, Wayman Tisdale, & Sam Perkins. Pat Ewing & Chris Mullin (who was also on the squad) went on to become HOFers. So let's not act like MJ carried a bunch of bums to a Gold medal against stiff comp. That's the problem with MJ's shit, you gotta overexagerrate and tell half truths to make his shit seem more than ordinary and not so underwhelming. Thats the main flaw with his brand.Pippen was drafted after Mike's 3rd season in the league. It's no one's fault but his own that he got hurt in year 2. And he managed to come back in time for the playoffs just to get swept.
Without Pip, MJ never led the Bulls to a .500 record or more than 1 win in a playoff series. Without Pip, MJ never led the Wizards to a .500 record or a playoff appearance in the weak East of the early 2000's. Scottie taught Mike how to win, PERIOD.U Posted Lies.. Kidd has more than 1 Win in the NBA Finals...Lie
Not as a NJ Net. He got swept in his first Finals appearance in 2002, then managed to win 1 game against the Spurs in 2003.
Oscar Robertson did NOT Lead "his team" to the NBA Finals... Lie
As an all star in '71 and in the top 5 in assist per game amongst PGs he most certainly did. Was J Kidd an all star in 2011 when he got his only ring as a Maverick? Was he top 5 in the league in assist at that point?
Lew Alcindor was dependent on Oscar to get him the ball. Might be why the Bucks finished sub .500 and missed the playoffs the year after Oscar retired and Kareem was still there. Its interesting how you credit Magic Johnson with all of Kareem's success as a Laker, but don't do the same for the PG Magic emulated and chased his whole career. Who had already won a title with Kareem 9 years before he did.
[/b]Your Whole Argument is Based on Lies.
This is Why u Never "Win".
I Post Facts and 1 educated opinion, You post uneducated opinions and a Bunch of Lies to back it up..[/b]
I post far more factual info about 60s and 70s players than you. You use "unofficial" CAC Hollinger stats to try and quantify guys numbers because they make Mike's and his contemporaries look so underwhelming. If dude was truly the GOAT, you would not have to do that.
Kidd like most players of his generation would not have had the stamina or endurance to run up and down the court in 120 point games and play over 40 minutes a game like Oscar. He wasnt that kind of specimen, and Kidd was never a threat to win any scoring titles unlike Oscar. Dude barely shot 40% from the field FOR HIS CAREER!
I love J Kidd, he's a HOFer and one of the best PGs of all time, but he absolutely is not fucking with Big O. And I think the poll will reflect that. 
Cousey... Magic... Zeke... Kidd.
Walt Frazier should be on that list.
@King....they just ran around and jacked up shots. The pace was crazy with no defense. What energy was spent on defense?
Kidd would be just fine back then. Kidd played in an era where Jimmer is too slow for the league. Think about that shit. Jimmer would easily drop 25-30 per game in the 60s, but he can't see the court today because he is a liability. When you tone those 60s arcade numbers down, you see what you really have.
All this Mt. Rushmore shit should be done by eras to make it fair.
Kidd would be just fine back then. Kidd played in an era where Jimmer is too slow for the league. Think about that shit. Jimmer would easily drop 25-30 per game in the 60s, but he can't see the court today because he is a liability. When you tone those 60s arcade numbers down, you see what you really have.
All this Mt. Rushmore shit should be done by eras to make it fair.
Imma Do it like This, Remix Style.Dude was the third leading scorer on his squad. The team was LED by James Worthy & Sam Perkins. Worthy went on to be the #1 overall pick that year. MJ hit the game winner and everyone acts like he did something.
He won that gold medal against some of the weakest comp ever. Tell me some of the foreign NBA players that Olympic team faced? And yall got the gall to question Big Wiltie's and Big O's competition.
Pippen was drafted after Mike's 3rd season in the league. It's no one's fault but his own that he got hurt in year 2. And he managed to come back in time for the playoffs just to get swept.
Not as a NJ Net. He got swept in his first Finals appearance in 2002, then managed to win 1 game against the Spurs in 2003.
As an all star in '71 and in the top 5 in assist per game amongst PGs he most certainly did. Was J Kidd an all star in 2011 when he got his only ring as a Maverick? Was he top 5 in the league in assist at that point?
Lew Alcindor was dependent on Oscar to get him the ball. Might be why the Bucks finished sub .500 and missed the playoffs the year after Oscar retired and Kareem was still there. Its interesting how you credit Magic Johnson with all of Kareem's success as a Laker, but don't do the same for the PG Magic emulated and chased his whole career. Who had already won a title with Kareem 9 years before he did.
I post far more factual info about 60s and 70s players than you. You use "unofficial" CAC Hollinger stats to try and quantify guys numbers because they make Mike's and his contemporaries look so underwhelming. If dude was truly the GOAT, you would not have to do that.
Kidd like most players of his generation would not have had the stamina or endurance to run up and down the court in 120 point games and play over 40 minutes a game like Oscar. He wasnt that kind of specimen, and Kidd was never a threat to win any scoring titles unlike Oscar. Dude barely shot 40% from the field FOR HIS CAREER!
The Fact of the Matter is that I Posted Facts. Not Opinions and False Facts, as you did.
Jordan won a NCAA championship All because of him...Truth. If Jordan didnt Take and Make the Game Winner in the NCAA Natonal championship Game, North Carolina wouldnt have Won Shit and James and Perkins wouldnt have Shit. Fact.
Jordan won a Olympic Gold Medal in 84 w/ college players when Gold was Not Guaranteed to Win all because of his play....Truth. After the Olympics, Coach Bobby Knight Called Michael Jordan the greatest player he has ever Seen, a man who hasnt even stepped on the NBA Hardwood yet.
Thats all He could have Possibly won w/o Pippen being that he got Drafted to a Scrub team and Pip was drafted after Jordans 2nd Full season as a Pro.
In all Actuality (what it really boils down to):
Jordan Won shit w/o Pippen. (National Championship, Olympic Gold Medal on a non-guaranteed victory w/ Collegiate Squad) Fact.
Pippen Never won shit w/o Jordan.
Jordan Carried Pippen in the NBA Playoffs and Especially in the Last 3 Finals were Pippen (and Rodman) was almost Nonexistent.
U Posted Lies.. Kidd has more than 1 Win in the NBA Finals...Stop Lyin'
Oscar Robertson did NOT Lead "his team" to the NBA Finals... Stop Lyin'
Truth: Lew Alcindor Lead HIS team to a Championship while Oscar Road his coat tail.
Your Whole Argument is Based on Lies.
This is Why u Never "Win".
I Post Facts and 1 educated opinion, You post uneducated opinions and a Bunch of Lies to back it up..
Oscar was in the Prime of his career and he cant make the playoffs 3 years in a Row.. If u are supposed to Best of the Best, you are supposed to be able to make your team better, ESPECIALLY a PG.
Missing the Playoffs your Entire Prime is Unacceptable.
Dude was the Shareef Abdur-Rahim of his Generation in terms of Losing.
If Kidd came into the League when Oscar did, Kidd would have averaged a Triple double for his Career. based on having 70 to 80 more possessions a game, the extraordinary low shooting percentages and rebounds available.
Peace.
Total Comparison: Chris Paul v. Top 4 PGs listed in poll through 8th season
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=paulch01&y1=2013&p2=johnsma02&y2=1987&p3=roberos01&y3=1968&p4=thomais01&y4=1989&p5=stockjo01&y5=1992
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