The Nine, Nine, Nine
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HERMAN CAIN: Repeatedly touted his 9-9-9 tax plan as a "bold" overhaul of the tax code that would get the economy back on track, and be embraced by the nation.
THE FACTS: Cain's plan is bold, and some economists think it includes features that would help the economy. But it is unlikely that the millions of low- and middle-income families who would face significant tax increases will embrace it. The wealthy, however, would probably love it because they would get big tax cuts.
Cain would eliminate the payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and replace the progressive federal income tax with a flat 9 percent tax on income. He would lower the corporate income tax from 35 percent to 9 percent, and impose a new 9 percent national sales tax.
Cain argued Tuesday night that low-income workers would pay less because he would eliminate payroll taxes, which total 15.3 percent of wages, when employer and employee shares are included. But his analysis omits the fact that most low-income households make a profit from the federal income tax because they qualify for so many credits, deductions and exemptions. The result is that most low-income families currently pay less than 9 percent of their income in federal taxes. Nearly half of all U.S. households — mostly low-and middle-income families — pay no federal income taxes at all, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, the official scorekeeper for Congress.
Additionally, all households would face a new 9 percent national sales tax, again disproportionately impacting those with lower incomes who spend all or most of their money.
High-income households would get a tax cut from the lower income tax rate. Also, Cain's proposal would eliminate taxes on capital gains.
Excerpted from the Atlanta Journal Constitution October 12, 2011
You also have to factor in globalization, with a low corporate tax rate, you might entice companies to move back to the U.S. Plus it is simple reduces the need of an IRS or going to prison for not paying taxes.
His social security idea needs some tweaking, I think you can reduce benefits paid by turning social security into a welfare system.
Hopefully there is no deficit spending where China, Japan, and other countries can buy up treasuries instead of exchanging dollars into their currency, eventually affecting the exchange rates, a definite job killer. China already has the advantage of being low regulation, legal system that doesn't have class action lawsuits.
His social security idea needs some tweaking, I think you can reduce benefits paid by turning social security into a welfare system.
Hopefully there is no deficit spending where China, Japan, and other countries can buy up treasuries instead of exchanging dollars into their currency, eventually affecting the exchange rates, a definite job killer. China already has the advantage of being low regulation, legal system that doesn't have class action lawsuits.
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That's funny.
On the plus side, it MIGHT get companies to move back to the US, though there's no proof of that.
On the negative side, it WILL be a huge tax increase on poor and working class families, who can least afford it and that's spelled out in black and white in the proposal.
Amazing how Republicans hate taxes unless they're on poor/working class people. They love tax breaks unles they favor poor/working class people. Strange people.
If companies are taxed less, than companies can pay more in wages. You can give employees board seats like other countries to ensure this.
Is there any data to suggest this ??? - instead of paying higher dividends to shareholders/investors/owners ? ? ?
Any Examples ? ? ?
"Can". I'm talkig about "will". No hypothetical. I'm talking about reality while you give out fantasy.
Here is website that discusses what various countries do in Europe regarding employees having seats on the board
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/1998/09/study/tn9809201s.htm
Whole bunch of countries allow it, its about time we have it here. What are you going to do if a company decides to move a unionized plant to China? Strike or Picket? Good Luck with that...Unions can only do so much and can only help out blue collar workers in most cases.
The problem with rich people isn't that they are not paying a fair share of taxes, its that they are paying paltry wages to their workers or moving production overseas allowing them to become super wealthy. Handing the government more money to hire more police, build more prisons, or expand the military is wrong. The U.S already has 25% of the prison population in the world.
If Corporate taxes are lowered for all companies, one of them will reduce prices on products making things cheaper because of the cost structure being lowered, negating the sales tax paid by the poor. Competition and lower taxes will force prices down significantly.
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/1998/09/study/tn9809201s.htm
Whole bunch of countries allow it, its about time we have it here. What are you going to do if a company decides to move a unionized plant to China? Strike or Picket? Good Luck with that...Unions can only do so much and can only help out blue collar workers in most cases.
The problem with rich people isn't that they are not paying a fair share of taxes, its that they are paying paltry wages to their workers or moving production overseas allowing them to become super wealthy. Handing the government more money to hire more police, build more prisons, or expand the military is wrong. The U.S already has 25% of the prison population in the world.
If Corporate taxes are lowered for all companies, one of them will reduce prices on products making things cheaper because of the cost structure being lowered, negating the sales tax paid by the poor. Competition and lower taxes will force prices down significantly.
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Again, you're countering what could happen to what will happen and I don't think that's a good tradeoff. Every opportunity corporations have to show that this is even kind of possible, they show that they won't do it, by example look at how they didn't hire anyone after the last tax holiday they got from Congress.
Yep, sounds like a step towards equality, everyone paying the same. Just like if everyone is required to pay a flat 50K annually in federal taxes. Equal.
No. We don't all benefit equally, why should we all pay equally (not that it is but for the sake of argument)?
Man if this "999" plan goes as plan, my taxes will be low as hell.
Call me cold, but I really don't care about anyone else on this matter.
However, this is not a permanent plan if congress refuse to cut spending overall.
Call me cold, but I really don't care about anyone else on this matter.
However, this is not a permanent plan if congress refuse to cut spending overall.
To entertain us.
Thought didn't even waste an apostrophe on this one. "You ignorant" LOL!
actinanass said:
A flat tax is regressive. It punishes and penalizes the poor, the working poor and the middle class and rewards the affluent and really lowers taxes dramatically for the rich & the super-rich. Herman Cain's plan is regressive, cruel and punitive. The income of a United States household considered to be at the statistical middle is $49,445 in 2010. Cain's plan would destroy that families financial equilibrium.
Let’s use real examples. An elementary school teachers assistant earning $24,000 a year. She is a single mom with a daughter. She’s going to community college at night to advance her education. She is “the working poor”. Under current IRS code she will be part of the 47% of Americans who earn so little and qualifies for child credit and EIC deductions that she pays NO federal income tax. Do you despise her because she is a poor working class woman trying to move up the economic ladder? The 47% of Americans who pay no federal income taxes, pay no federal income taxes because they earn so-little money. Herman Cains 9% tax for this lady would make her poorer, Cain was asked on CNN about whether food and clothing would be exempt from his 9% sales tax, and he said NO that his 9% would apply to food and clothing. Also she would now be paying 9% income tax on her $24,000. Also there is no longer any Social Security or Medicare deduction under Cain's plan. He doesn't believe in either program. What percentage of the $24,000 yearly income does this woman spend on food and clothing for her household? The answer is a huge percentage; but according to Cain "she can save money by buying used goods". Her savings are minimal because she earns so-little. Cain says that if she makes it to age sixty-five, and for whatever reason hasn't become affluent by then, and she needs medical care, Cain says she can go to a local church or charity and beg them to help her. She’s totally screwed under cain’s plan.
Next lets use the New York City fireman, he earns $99,104. He’s middle class, he sure is not rich. His current federal tax rate is 17%, plus state and local taxes that he can deduct from his federal tax return if he itemizes which he does since he is a homeowner and gets to deduct his mortgage interest. Cain’s plan would lower his federal tax rate but, Cain’s 9% national sales tax WHICH TAXES FOOD and CLOTHING on top of the current New York City 8.875% sales tax which DOES NOT tax food, would actually wind up increasing his taxes. Fortunately for the fireman he has a strong union which has negotiated his ability to retire with a pension after 20 years on the job and maintain medical insurance until his death. Since cain's plan includes no medicare or social security, without the firemans union negotiated benefit package he would be just as screwed as the teachers assistant.
So in our first two examples both people lose under Cain’s plan.
Net lets use an airline pilot captain for American Airlines, a 777 captain. He earns $200 an hour, he can earn as much as $400,000 per year. At $400,000 his federal tax rate is 27%. Cain’s plan would clearly benefit him by at least 10%+. Add a zero to that $400,000, you get $4,000,000 ($4 Million) which one of the executives at American Airline easily makes and you can quickly figure out that the $4 Million dollar executive, benefits even more $$$$$$$$$$ from Cain’s plan than the $400,000 pilot.
To entertain us.
Thought didn't even waste an apostrophe on this one. "You ignorant" LOL!
If people here focused on geting paid instead of arguing this could be a golden op. Gotta organize, see opportunity and grab it.
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Cold Pizza from Herm Cain
by Timothy Egan
October 13, 2011
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/cold-pizza-from-herm-cain/
By almost any measure — social, political, economic, logical — Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan is nuts, nuts, nuts. Go ahead and jack up the price of nearly everything that moves in the United States with a 9 percent national sales tax on all new purchases and services. Talk about instant branding: every time you buy something, you’ll be hit with the Herm Cain tax at the checkout line.
And this is just the start. The nearly 50 million filers whose main federal tax is now a payroll deduction and not an income tax would see their overall bill from the government increase by nearly 100 percent. This conclusion comes from the economists and fact-checkers who have actually looked at the napkin sketch of a plan Cain got from some accountant friend of his in Cleveland.
<SPAN STYLE="background-color:YELLOW"><b>In essence, Cain is proposing the largest shift in tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and middle class in the nation’s history. Oh, and he apparently would scrap the two great government programs that keep millions clinging to fragile middle-class status — Social Security and Medicare — because he wants to eliminate the payroll taxes that now pay for those insurers of dignity.</b></span>
We are forced to seriously consider this bizarro-world, reverse-Robin-Hood scheme, one that would junk the entire federal tax code for a 9 percent flat rate on corporate earnings, personal income and retail sales, because of the astonishing news that Republicans have elevated Cain to the top of their field in three polls released over the last 48 hours.
Related
Room for Debate: What’s So Bad About a Flat Tax?
Not to worry: fruit flies on a bad apple have a longer life than does a front-runner among Republican presidential candidates. Cain’s reign will be short because his central plan is pure craziness, even for Republicans.
Let’s say you buy a new car or a week’s worth of groceries, or pay $2,000 for your kid’s dental work. Cain would add 9 percent to the price of those transactions — on top of the 9 percent in sales taxes people already pay in some states, like Washington, where I live. And if you’re lower middle class, there would be no income tax offset — but an increase!
That’s the Cain platform: raise the price of everything in the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression.
So how did Cain float to the top, at least for a week? He’s a motivational speaker, and a good one. He’s glib, optimistic, likeable, and has a great personal story. But he has zero governing experience. And his business forte was running a national food chain, Godfather’s, when they made truly awful-tasting pizzas. (I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt on their post-Cain pizzas.)
Cain tops the polls because almost three-quarters of Republican primary voters cannot come around to their likely nominee, Mitt Romney. And the rest of the field lose voters every time they open their mouths.
In Tuesday’s debate, Newt Gingrich showed why he is a prevaricator with preternatural talent, finding new and creative ways to revive old and discredited lies. He trotted out the 2009 “lie of the year” winner by Politifact.com — that death panels would decide who gets to live under the new health care law.
He also called for jailing the congressional architects of a new law to curb the kind of uncontrolled manipulations by bankers and Wall Street traders that brought down the global economy. You heard that right: he doesn’t want the people who dreamed up all those explosive credit default swaps and derivative trades to go to jail; he wants to incarcerate the reformers.
Cain’s ideas are actually worse: he would give Wall Street speculators more money. Under his plan, a billionaire now paying only 15 percent federal taxes on investment income — a lower rate, as Warren Buffett notes, than his secretary pays — would get a 40 percent reduction.
Last month’s frontrunner, Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, offered up fresh material for the all-hat-no-cattle label he seems determined to wear. To his prior proclamations that evolution is “a theory that’s out there,” and global warming is a hoax, this dream candidate of Rush Limbaugh put the American Revolution in the 16th century. Amazing, the things Thomas Jefferson could do in his 235th year.
Oh, but there were some critics of Cain-o-nomics. Michele Bachmann noted that the 9-9-9 design, turned upside down, was a Satanic 6-6-6.
The power of his plan, Cain replies to all criticism, is its simplicity. “I can explain it in a minute!” he says. But someone who has taken more than a minute with 9-9-9 — Bruce Bartlett, the former economic adviser to Presidents Reagan and George H. W. Bush — has called it “insane.” Read his examination in his Times blog here.
Cain is unelectable, and his plan is toxic. This gets Republicans back to the one person they cannot yet get their arms around: Willard Mitt Romney, an unflappable technocrat with a Harvard M.B.A. who passed a bold socialist health care plan that is a model for the nation, and once professed that he would be stronger on gay rights than Teddy Kennedy. Bring on the general election.
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Cold Pizza from Herm Cain
by Timothy Egan
October 13, 2011
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/cold-pizza-from-herm-cain/
By almost any measure — social, political, economic, logical — Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan is nuts, nuts, nuts. Go ahead and jack up the price of nearly everything that moves in the United States with a 9 percent national sales tax on all new purchases and services. Talk about instant branding: every time you buy something, you’ll be hit with the Herm Cain tax at the checkout line.
And this is just the start. The nearly 50 million filers whose main federal tax is now a payroll deduction and not an income tax would see their overall bill from the government increase by nearly 100 percent. This conclusion comes from the economists and fact-checkers who have actually looked at the napkin sketch of a plan Cain got from some accountant friend of his in Cleveland.
<SPAN STYLE="background-color:YELLOW"><b>In essence, Cain is proposing the largest shift in tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and middle class in the nation’s history. Oh, and he apparently would scrap the two great government programs that keep millions clinging to fragile middle-class status — Social Security and Medicare — because he wants to eliminate the payroll taxes that now pay for those insurers of dignity.</b></span>
We are forced to seriously consider this bizarro-world, reverse-Robin-Hood scheme, one that would junk the entire federal tax code for a 9 percent flat rate on corporate earnings, personal income and retail sales, because of the astonishing news that Republicans have elevated Cain to the top of their field in three polls released over the last 48 hours.
Related
Room for Debate: What’s So Bad About a Flat Tax?
Not to worry: fruit flies on a bad apple have a longer life than does a front-runner among Republican presidential candidates. Cain’s reign will be short because his central plan is pure craziness, even for Republicans.
Let’s say you buy a new car or a week’s worth of groceries, or pay $2,000 for your kid’s dental work. Cain would add 9 percent to the price of those transactions — on top of the 9 percent in sales taxes people already pay in some states, like Washington, where I live. And if you’re lower middle class, there would be no income tax offset — but an increase!
That’s the Cain platform: raise the price of everything in the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression.
So how did Cain float to the top, at least for a week? He’s a motivational speaker, and a good one. He’s glib, optimistic, likeable, and has a great personal story. But he has zero governing experience. And his business forte was running a national food chain, Godfather’s, when they made truly awful-tasting pizzas. (I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt on their post-Cain pizzas.)
Cain tops the polls because almost three-quarters of Republican primary voters cannot come around to their likely nominee, Mitt Romney. And the rest of the field lose voters every time they open their mouths.
In Tuesday’s debate, Newt Gingrich showed why he is a prevaricator with preternatural talent, finding new and creative ways to revive old and discredited lies. He trotted out the 2009 “lie of the year” winner by Politifact.com — that death panels would decide who gets to live under the new health care law.
He also called for jailing the congressional architects of a new law to curb the kind of uncontrolled manipulations by bankers and Wall Street traders that brought down the global economy. You heard that right: he doesn’t want the people who dreamed up all those explosive credit default swaps and derivative trades to go to jail; he wants to incarcerate the reformers.
Cain’s ideas are actually worse: he would give Wall Street speculators more money. Under his plan, a billionaire now paying only 15 percent federal taxes on investment income — a lower rate, as Warren Buffett notes, than his secretary pays — would get a 40 percent reduction.
Last month’s frontrunner, Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, offered up fresh material for the all-hat-no-cattle label he seems determined to wear. To his prior proclamations that evolution is “a theory that’s out there,” and global warming is a hoax, this dream candidate of Rush Limbaugh put the American Revolution in the 16th century. Amazing, the things Thomas Jefferson could do in his 235th year.
Oh, but there were some critics of Cain-o-nomics. Michele Bachmann noted that the 9-9-9 design, turned upside down, was a Satanic 6-6-6.
The power of his plan, Cain replies to all criticism, is its simplicity. “I can explain it in a minute!” he says. But someone who has taken more than a minute with 9-9-9 — Bruce Bartlett, the former economic adviser to Presidents Reagan and George H. W. Bush — has called it “insane.” Read his examination in his Times blog here.
Cain is unelectable, and his plan is toxic. This gets Republicans back to the one person they cannot yet get their arms around: Willard Mitt Romney, an unflappable technocrat with a Harvard M.B.A. who passed a bold socialist health care plan that is a model for the nation, and once professed that he would be stronger on gay rights than Teddy Kennedy. Bring on the general election.
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A flat tax is regressive. It punishes and penalizes the poor, the working poor and the middle class and rewards the affluent and really lowers taxes dramatically for the rich & the super-rich. Herman Cain's plan is regressive, cruel and punitive. The income of a United States household considered to be at the statistical middle is $49,445 in 2010. Cain's plan would destroy that families financial equilibrium.
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Warren Buffett Would Pay Almost No Income
Tax Under Herman Cain's '999' Tax Plan
....If implemented, Cain's "999" tax plan would eliminate taxes on capital gains, significantly reducing Buffett's tax rate because his ordinary income, outside of capital gains, comes to about $4.9 million. Cain's plan would cap corporate, income and sales tax at 9 percent. According to an analysis prepared for Yahoo's Lookout by the American Institute of Certified Public accountants,
<blockquote>
<span style="background-color:yellow">the 999 plan would leave Buffett paying around $440,000 in income tax, or 1.1 percent of his approximate $40,000,000 ($40 Million) in currently taxable income.....</span>
</blockquote>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/warren-buffett-no-income-tax-999_n_1016141.html
he is getting rid of home real estate deductions
standard deductions
most itemized deductions
child care credits
so how does he feel MOST will pay less.
they say that over 47 % pay no taxes now because of deductions. So all of them will pay more.
Those who are at the higher end of the middle class will also lose their deductions so while they pay something now they will pay more.
That is just on income tax.
Now add in his national sales tax which will make goods and services 9% more expensive than they are now and in some states that will mean almost 20% of the price will be federal state and local taxes.
The only people that will come out better are the rich.
His 9% replaces their 35% income and 15% capital gains so without anything else they have a tremendous cut.
He also say that charitable;e contributions will still have a deduction so their 9% will be less or nothing for giving to the Heritage Foundation for example.
Also when the federal income tax was first introduced it was never to surpass 10% as the top rate.
As someone said eventually this 999 will go to 30 30 30 with the poor and middle class being modern day sharecroppers.
standard deductions
most itemized deductions
child care credits
so how does he feel MOST will pay less.
they say that over 47 % pay no taxes now because of deductions. So all of them will pay more.
Those who are at the higher end of the middle class will also lose their deductions so while they pay something now they will pay more.
That is just on income tax.
Now add in his national sales tax which will make goods and services 9% more expensive than they are now and in some states that will mean almost 20% of the price will be federal state and local taxes.
The only people that will come out better are the rich.
His 9% replaces their 35% income and 15% capital gains so without anything else they have a tremendous cut.
He also say that charitable;e contributions will still have a deduction so their 9% will be less or nothing for giving to the Heritage Foundation for example.
Also when the federal income tax was first introduced it was never to surpass 10% as the top rate.
As someone said eventually this 999 will go to 30 30 30 with the poor and middle class being modern day sharecroppers.
On top of all that, Cain, a year ago, was against a VAT but in his only policy proposal, he's got one.
This dude.
This dude.
Not true because then you will tax rich, poor and middle class neither party will have the backbone to raise taxes on everyone.
When I read how it will unfairly place a tax burden on the poor I think that if they were already paying taxes then I would feel sorry for them but right now you have @47% not paying taxes.
All this tax reform is great but we also need to find a way to stop the federal govt from spending more than it takes in.
It's because they're too poor to pay federal income taxes. How does that need reforming?
exactly, you want them to pay taxes then pay them more income.
they have taxes withheld but their wages are so low that even with the standard deduction and childcare they get a small return.
it's just easier to focus on the poor and that is the MO.
first it was target those on welfare because they have no lobbyist
then it was target the illegals
now its target the poor because they don't pay income tax but they do pay social security, they do pay sales taxes, they pay into medicare.
and those who they are crying for what they pay in taxes is a lesser percentage of their income.
they pass their wealth on and want to do away with inheritance and estate tax.
they don't work for wealth but get their income by investments and the capital gains is already half of what the working classes income rate is.
they change the topic from they are not jobs creators to the poor don't pay taxes,.
a total fucking shell game.
