Those Damn Guns Again

bigmally26

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Bad argument, car manufacturers do not make cars with the intent to kill or injure. And right now we do hold businesses accountable when they serve excessive alcohol to individuals and allow them to drive drunk if something happens. My company recently got sued for this.

What no one wants to say is this. When you are responsible for making something that can be used for such deadly actions, IT SHOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THE PROPER PEOPLE ARE PURCHASING AND ADMINISTERING YOUR PRODUCT. We have created a culture in this country of "It's not my fault, I had no control of the end result." How can we effectively ask individuals to take ownership to their fuck ups when we are so eager to defend corporations who should have the moral obligation to do the same. "Those who have the ability to do, HAVE THE MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO SO." When sales projections and profits come before that, you have this end result.

Gun companies mass produce these weapons not out of necessity, but out of consumer greed. We always want the latest toy, i.e. Iphone.

Marine I understand what you want to say and I understand the mind of a marine. My best friend is a marine and he has almost 20 guns. FOR WHAT???? You only have 2 hands. He has extended clips, which are illegal.

Marine what you also do not mention is, you have gone through a series of test with your training to allow you to purchase such firearms. As it stands now, any joe blow on the street without a criminal background can purchase any amounts of weapons with a very short wait time.
 

bigmally26

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That has to do more with the make-up of the population than the actual gun laws. Higher poverty = Higher crime. Stop trying to tie gun laws and higher crime rate together because your are leaving out a significant reason for the crime initially. Across the river crime is lower because of the make-up of the population. People stop using this argument because it is false and highly SKEWED.
 

Ruff Ryder

Robotix
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That has to do more with the make-up of the population than the actual gun laws. Higher poverty = Higher crime. Stop trying to tie gun laws and higher crime rate together because your are leaving out a significant reason for the crime initially. Across the river crime is lower because of the make-up of the population. People stop using this argument because it is false and highly SKEWED.

That is a cop out.

Socio-economics does not cancel out self discipline and common sense.
 

bigmally26

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Of course they do and anyone who doesn't see that has never driven into a poverty stricken area. They live by a different set of rules because they have no one around to teach them better. It's not a cop out IT'S THE TRUTH.

Sense is not common it has to be taught.
 

Greed

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Mental illness is being used as an excuse to deflect the gun issue. Black folk are my priority. There was at least one black girl killed. If you are killed by a "sane" or an "insane" person, you are still dead. Was Zimmerman insane? Talk about your concern for Black lives. You seem to care less about Trayvon's life and more about Zimmerman's gun rights.

Sometimes you sicken me with your idiotic agreements.
The face of this is white and blond and thats the only reason there is national attention on gun control.

Ae you stupid enough to think Zimmerman/Martin is about anything other than Stand your Ground laws?
 

bigmally26

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Bad argument, car manufacturers do not make cars with the intent to kill or injure. And right now we do hold businesses accountable when they serve excessive alcohol to individuals and allow them to drive drunk if something happens. My company recently got sued for this.

What no one wants to say is this. When you are responsible for making something that can be used for such deadly actions, IT SHOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THE PROPER PEOPLE ARE PURCHASING AND ADMINISTERING YOUR PRODUCT. We have created a culture in this country of "It's not my fault, I had no control of the end result." How can we effectively ask individuals to take ownership to their fuck ups when we are so eager to defend corporations who should have the moral obligation to do the same. "Those who have the ability to do, HAVE THE MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO SO." When sales projections and profits come before that, you have this end result.

Gun companies mass produce these weapons not out of necessity, but out of consumer greed. We always want the latest toy, i.e. Iphone.

Marine I understand what you want to say and I understand the mind of a marine. My best friend is a marine and he has almost 20 guns. FOR WHAT???? You only have 2 hands. He has extended clips, which are illegal.

Marine what you also do not mention is, you have gone through a series of test with your training to allow you to purchase such firearms. As it stands now, any joe blow on the street without a criminal background can purchase any amounts of weapons with a very short wait time.
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I'm all for keeping guns out of a criminals hands, you won't get a argument from me on that issue.

I frequent gun shows in Michigan but when I purchase a firearm I have to produce my driver's license and my CPL (Concealed Pistol License) if buying a handgun.

Your coming around slowly.

So you are for eliminating the gun show loophole?
 

Ruff Ryder

Robotix
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Of course they do and anyone who doesn't see that has never driven into a poverty stricken area. They live by a different set of rules because they have no one around to teach them better. It's not a cop out IT'S THE TRUTH.

I live in Detroit.
 

bigmally26

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Then you should know better than to say something dumb like that. Everyone isn't taught sense so it is not common.
 

Greed

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Bad argument, car manufacturers do not make cars with the intent to kill or injure. And right now we do hold businesses accountable when they serve excessive alcohol to individuals and allow them to drive drunk if something happens. My company recently got sued for this.
With the logic you laid out before, Greygoose and the server should be liable. A random bar or gun shop has no relationship with the consumer other than that particular transaction. A job's Christmas party or something is different. The relationship is not casual.

What no one wants to say is this. When you are responsible for making something that can be used for such deadly actions, IT SHOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THE PROPER PEOPLE ARE PURCHASING AND ADMINISTERING YOUR PRODUCT. We have created a culture in this country of "It's not my fault, I had no control of the end result." How can we effectively ask individuals to take ownership to their fuck ups when we are so eager to defend corporations who should have the moral obligation to do the same. "Those who have the ability to do, HAVE THE MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO SO." When sales projections and profits come before that, you have this end result.
So the makers of Readi-Wip should face prosecution for people sniff the gas in the can instead of making banana splits?

Gun companies mass produce these weapons not out of necessity, but out of consumer greed. We always want the latest toy, i.e. Iphone.
To me, self-defense is a necessity. Who are you say what level of security I should be comfortable with?

Of course they do and anyone who doesn't see that has never driven into a poverty stricken area. They live by a different set of rules because they have no one around to teach them better. It's not a cop out IT'S THE TRUTH.
And anyone who thinks poverty equals no values have never actually lived in a poverty stricken area. There is nothing inherent in poverty that makes you want to kill someone.

Having a perception of hopelessness that things will never get better leads to bad decisions like violence.

You're basically saying poor people are savages.
 

Ruff Ryder

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Everyone isn't taught sense so it is not common.

Every human being has a brain between their ears.

People know that killing is wrong, they also know that they will face prosecution but in the heat of conflict be it as stupid as it may be some one will catch a bullet or a brutal beating.

I'm not making a excuse for some clown who commits black on black crime because of his environment, I was raised in the same place.

We recently had 2 fools kill a 69 year old black woman in Detroit who did nothing but go outside to retrieve her trash can from the curb.
 

bigmally26

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With the logic you laid out before, Greygoose and the server should be liable. A random bar or gun shop has no relationship with the consumer other than that particular transaction. A job's Christmas party or something is different. The relationship is not casual.

Other than that particular transaction? That's exactly what I'm talking about. The server and the bar are held accountable.

Here is what most of you don't want to admit. People in general cannot and will not police themselves. There is a reason we have laws, and just because you have enough self-discipline to control yourself. You don't live in the United States of YOURSELF. This is the reason we have so much obesity and poverty. In general people do not always do what's best for them and take a lot of unnecessary risk.

So the makers of Readi-Wip should face prosecution for people sniff the gas in the can instead of making banana splits?

In a sense, instead of being concerned with just profits, if they know this is a problem, they need to rectify it.

To me, self-defense is a necessity. Who are you say what level of security I should be comfortable with?


And anyone who thinks poverty equals no values have never actually lived in a poverty stricken area. There is nothing inherent in poverty that makes you want to kill someone.

Having a perception of hopelessness that things will never get better leads to bad decisions like violence.

You're basically saying poor people are savages.

No you are saying poor people are savages, I am saying that many of them are UNTAUGHT the proper decorum for society rules and how to be an effective citizen. I volunteer as a high school baseball coach at a poverty stricken high school and I also volunteer coach at a middle income park and the difference is unbelievable. I do more life counseling at the poverty stricken high school. If kids are never taught the proper way to go about doing things, they will assume the things they view in the street are normal. Take a young boy witnessing his dad beat him mom. Seeing that he will grow up to think it is okay to beat women. This has nothing to do with calling someone less than human or a savage. You can't fault someone who doesn't know any better. It is our job as a society to police and uplift everyone even if we have to give up some of our rights.
Those who can do have the moral obligation to do. And until we start living by that this B.S. will continue.
 

Greed

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Other than that particular transaction? That's exactly what I'm talking about. The server and the bar are held accountable.
That leads to higher political cost associated with doing business when you have to take responsibility for any random person you come across in life. That means less economic activity in general. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say Greygoose or any liquor maker has to be accountable for you.

Here is what most of you don't want to admit. People in general cannot and will not police themselves. There is a reason we have laws, and just because you have enough self-discipline to control yourself. You don't live in the United States of YOURSELF. This is the reason we have so much obesity and poverty. In general people do not always do what's best for them and take a lot of unnecessary risk.
Once again, who are you to determine what's necessary for any random stranger in the world?

People do generally police themselves. America isn't a cesspool of crime. Its a large country and the small percentage of people who commits crime still equals a lot of people.

You can look at illegal drugs as an example. The people I know that don't do drugs aren't taking the law into account. If they aren't smoking weed, its because they have shit to get done. The high last too long and they don't have time to be high. Its not because they don't know how to get it or that it's against the aw. They are policing themselves and not doing something to their detriment.

You have a negative opinion of people in general if you think laws are what keeps them in place.

So the makers of Readi-Wip should face prosecution for people sniff the gas in the can instead of making banana splits?

In a sense, instead of being concerned with just profits, if they know this is a problem, they need to rectify it.
Everyone already knows it's a long-time problem. In my city there is a high profile case of a girl driving under the influence of Reddi-wip gas and she killed someone. No rational person, in any circumstance, is calling for a whip cream maker's head. Even irrational people aren't calling for it. Except you.

No you are saying poor people are savages, I am saying that many of them are UNTAUGHT the proper decorum for society rules and how to be an effective citizen. I volunteer as a high school baseball coach at a poverty stricken high school and I also volunteer coach at a middle income park and the difference is unbelievable. I do more life counseling at the poverty stricken high school. If kids are never taught the proper way to go about doing things, they will assume the things they view in the street are normal. Take a young boy witnessing his dad beat him mom. Seeing that he will grow up to think it is okay to beat women. This has nothing to do with calling someone less than human or a savage. You can't fault someone who doesn't know any better. It is our job as a society to police and uplift everyone even if we have to give up some of our rights.
Those who can do have the moral obligation to do. And until we start living by that this B.S. will continue.
Once again, no matter how ignorant you want to assert that any random poor kid is, that doesn't make them prone to murder.

You are actively ruining those kids perception of themselves if you're treating them as potential murderers that have to be taught not to hurt someone.

Just like I said with America in general, there is a small percentage of poor people committing violence. It's not inherent to them being poor, it's inherent to them thinking violence is their best option.

People with a perception of hopelessness of ever leaving poverty commits crime, not the person trying their best under the assumption things will work out. Human nature tends towards hope so the hopeless is a minority of poor people.
 

bigmally26

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With the logic you laid out before, Greygoose and the server should be liable. A random bar or gun shop has no relationship with the consumer other than that particular transaction. A job's Christmas party or something is different. The relationship is not casual.


So the makers of Readi-Wip should face prosecution for people sniff the gas in the can instead of making banana splits?


To me, self-defense is a necessity. Who are you say what level of security I should be comfortable with?


And anyone who thinks poverty equals no values have never actually lived in a poverty stricken area. There is nothing inherent in poverty that makes you want to kill someone.

Having a perception of hopelessness that things will never get better leads to bad decisions like violence.

You're basically saying poor people are savages.

That leads to higher political cost associated with doing business when you have to take responsibility for any random person you come across in life. That means less economic activity in general. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say Greygoose or any liquor maker has to be accountable for you.


Once again, who are you to determine what's necessary for any random stranger in the world?

People do generally police themselves. America isn't a cesspool of crime. Its a large country and the small percentage of people who commits crime still equals a lot of people.

You can look at illegal drugs as an example. The people I know that don't do drugs aren't taking the law into account. If they aren't smoking weed, its because they have shit to get done. The high last too long and they don't have time to be high. Its not because they don't know how to get it or that it's against the aw. They are policing themselves and not doing something to their detriment.

You have a negative opinion of people in general if you think laws are what keeps them in place.


Everyone already knows it's a long-time problem. In my city there is a high profile case of a girl driving under the influence of Reddi-wip gas and she killed someone. No rational person, in any circumstance, is calling for a whip cream maker's head. Even irrational people aren't calling for it. Except you.


Once again, no matter how ignorant you want to assert that any random poor kid is, that doesn't make them prone to murder.

You are actively ruining those kids perception of themselves if you're treating them as potential murderers that have to be taught not to hurt someone.

Just like I said with America in general, there is a small percentage of poor people committing violence. It's not inherent to them being poor, it's inherent to them thinking violence is their best option.

People with a perception of hopelessness of ever leaving poverty commits crime, not the person trying their best under the assumption things will work out. Human nature tends towards hope so the hopeless is a minority of poor people.

You are making my points for me. Poverty and crime have a direct correlation, stop disputing that. A large number of minority youth that live in poverty DO have a sense of hopelessness, which is why they commit acts of violence at such alarming rates. And as for what I do with kids, at least I'm out there showing them how to be productive citizens and not just blogging about it. I have helped 20 young men go to college as a volunteer high school coach, who also has my own IT company and another job, so let's stay away from that argument.
Stick with the topic!

So according to you and society, no one should be held to a higher standard. This is a major part of the problem, NO ACCOUNTABILITY.
My argument isn't just with gun makers or redi whip, when you have the RIGHT to do something, YOU also have the right to be held to a higher standard when doing whatever you do.

The argument you are making is it's no one's responsibility to hold anyone to a higher standard so let everything just be.


News flash, LAWS are what keep the majority of the population in place. DO you have car insurance? Do you rob and steal? Do you drive intoxicated? Do you have more than one wife? Exactly, the majority of the population follow the laws even if you don't think they do. You take the one law that shouldn't even be a law and base your whole argument on it. Weed shouldn't be illegal period.

I never said the alcohol maker should be responsible, just the bar and the server. This is a bad comparison to guns. Alcohol is not made with the intentions of killing whatever is in it's cross hairs. Bad argument on your part.
 
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thoughtone

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BGOL Investor
Well ban all guns, and see what happens then..

I mean things have to change right?

:rolleyes:

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QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
That would require addressing what one of the articles you posted above mentioned. A basic revamp of medical privacy for mental illness to address public safety. We can agree it needs to be addressed, but probably disagree on whether it will be addressed well even if bipartisanship consensus is achieved.

I think gun violence and gun control have several aspects that are rarely analyzed separately. As I see it, the "Mentally Disturbed" gun user is ONE problem and gun violence in inner-city black hoods is another, and not causally related to the former.

I would like to the see both problems addressed, though I can see how a solution (solution = at least a meaningful reduction) to either will require a monetary investment. Whether they will be addressed "well" -- probably depends, at least in part, upon whether the shield of the protective lobby (NRA) can be sufficiently pierced. It has done such a good job of camouflaging and confusing the issues that gun enthusiasts fight and argue against their own best interest.


Like in Chicago, until last year it was basically against the law for a resident to own a gun. That didn't affect gun violence. Gun control people have already had their way in multiple areas in this country. Gun violence was still rampant. So when they offer up something new and promote they have the solution, they have no credibility.

I think this is a good example of the camouflage. As you know, inner-city gun violence is not just the proliferation of guns, there are socio-economic basis for the violence as well. Yet, gun enthusiasts tend to argue the former ("removing the guns won't solve the problem") -- in an attempt to win the argument against gun control. The argument, however, is logically flawed (cause and effect) and the winning argument ignores the mounting carnage. Sometimes the right treatment involves surgery as well as radiation whereas alone, neither are sufficient to save the patient's life.



Solutions should be connected with the problem. If not, then its just rampant emotional rhetoric. Addressing mental health of individuals, accountability of guardians of those individuals, and school security were the problems identified so far. Shouldn't the credible solutions address those issues?

Yes. Mental health and guns as well as individual accountability needs addressing. Availability of guns and ammo needs addressing as well as the kinds of weapons available to the public needs examination.

The NRA appears adamantly opposed to any examination as if it fears that any change might utterly ruin gun ownership as IT sees it.


The problem wasn't that the guns were bought legally, the issue was someone who the family, and maybe a professional, identified as mentally unstable had access to those guns.

I agree. the problem in Connecticut appears to be as you say. Besides addressing mental health issues directly, I think we have to address mental health & guns indirectly as well, i.e., those who know or should know that there are people within their confines with mental issues should have a duty to keep their firearms out of the hands of the unstable -- or suffer the consequences, civilly and criminally, for the harm the unstable causes with those firearms.
 

QueEx

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Super Moderator
Every human being has a brain between their ears.

People know that killing is wrong, they also know that they will face prosecution but in the heat of conflict be it as stupid as it may be some one will catch a bullet or a brutal beating.

I'm not making a excuse for some clown who commits black on black crime because of his environment, I was raised in the same place.

We recently had 2 fools kill a 69 year old black woman in Detroit who did nothing but go outside to retrieve her trash can from the curb.

Theirs ought to be Capital cases.
 

Lamarr

Star
Registered
of course, the NRA is silent......

Gun Owners of America Issues A Response

A gunman whose name we do not need to memorialize took advantage of our gun control laws to slaughter some 20 children and seven adults in a Newton, Connecticut elementary school.

In addition to the gunman, blood is on the hands of members of Congress and the Connecticut legislators who voted to ban guns from all schools in Connecticut (and most other states). They are the ones who made it illegal to defend oneself with a gun in a school when that is the only effective way of resisting a gunman.

What a lethal, false security are the Gun Free Zone laws. All of our mass murders in the last 20 years have occurred in Gun Free Zones. The two people murdered a couple of days earlier in the shopping center in Oregon were also in a Gun Free Zone.

Hopefully the Connecticut tragedy will be the tipping point after which a rising chorus of Americans will demand elimination of the Gun Free Zone laws that are in fact, Criminal Safe Zones.

One measure of insanity is repeating the same failure time after time hoping that the next time the failure will turn out to be a success. Gun Free Zones are a lethal insanity.

We must tell our elected officials that they are acting as the criminals’ friends as long as they continue to support legislation that only protects criminals, not decent people.

Oh, and we must also insist that these criminal friendly elected officials not even try to blame gun owners and our “gun culture” for what a criminal did. Had a few of us been available with guns at the Newton school, most of the victims might still be alive
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor

*sigh* Obama might have to fire Holder.

I'm going to give props to the president. He is one loyal person for this move.

I really hope there's nothing Nixon-like going on here.

Even when I'm serious, people think I'm being sarcastic...

I thought I was the only who notice how he was acting.

Seriously, I don't want Obama to be in the same category with Nixon. He is still the first black president. That's why I haven't went in on him like I really should be. The reality is, if Obama looks like he has damaged the presidency with scandal, the left would only become worse than they are right now. Obama really should consider getting rid of Holder, but sadly, I think its too late.

When you're side doesn't have shit to defend their argument, result to so-called personal attacks.

Another typical temper tantrum from our great friends who supports the left. They can't deal with being on the losing side of the issues.

Another sign that we are dealing with mental midgets *oh im sorry, Little People*.

Who said I was angry?



He's not interested in any facts that contradicts the overall narrative. Remember, if it contradicts his line of thinking then it has no credibility. :lol:
The why the EP?

I say get rid of Holder because he isn't doing his job. This is just a cherry on top IMO.

Well, for one, some people on this board *including yourself* tend to always side with the president on nearly every issue. Thus, why I've been fairly quiet for roughly three months. Last week was the first time, in a long time, I've debated about anything political. I've stated what I believe President Obama has to do to win reelection. He does basically the opposite. Therefore, IMO the writing is on the wall. Anyone who thinks otherwise are either delusional, or uninformed about how politics work.

Reality, the political playbook Obama is running has only worked when the economy is in good shape. Romney stay focus, and do not fall into the social issues trap liberals set out, he should win big. All this stuff President Obama is pulling right now will end up looking very desperate.

source: NBC News

Investigation finds no evidence Holder knew of 'Fast and Furious' gun-running sting

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QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Voices of Reason, Rising ??? :please:



Pro-gun senator says it's time to talk gun regulations
Manchin is the most prominent pro-gun member of Congress to address the shooting.




ap-manchin-2012-4_3_r560.jpg

West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin is a longtime gun rights advocate.(Photo: Dave Martin, AP)



His comments come a day after President Obama's impassioned speech in Newtown in which he said lawmakers had failed their children, saying, "We can't accept events like this as routine. ... Are we prepared to say such violence visited on our children year after year after year is somehow the price of our freedom?"

Manchin, a lifelong hunter who once used the climate change bill for target practice in one of his political ads, mentioned the new assault weapons bill currently being crafted by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., as one of the proposals that merited discussion.

"I've been a hunter all my life, the culture in West Virginia
is hunting and sporting and we love it," I've never been
hunting with anyone with an assault weapon. I've never
been hunting with anyone with multiple clips of 10, 20 or
30 rounds in it. In deer hunting we maybe have three shells
and that's the sport of what we do."​

The NRA has yet to comment on the incident in Newtown and at some point this weekend appeared to have pulled down its Facebook page.

Machinin said he had spoken to the NRA and that he wanted the group "engaged in this dialogue" and "need to be at the table" to help craft a "reasonable" solution.

"They are going to be strong participant, and they should be at the table and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure they are," he said.



SOURCE: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/17/manchin-gun-regulations-momentum/1774613/



 

footloose

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
gun laws is in full effect in nyc. stop and frisk and all that shit. i understand the innocent bystander thing with these youth goin bananas, but a fuking full assault on a kindergarden class. folks need to stop the bullshit and put these things where needed and not wanted.:cool:
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Voices of Reason, Rising ??? :please:



Pro-gun senator says it's time to talk gun regulations

Manchin is the most prominent pro-gun member of Congress to address the shooting.


Manchin is actually a Democrat. A Blue Dog, but a Democrat.

This fool, from, you guest it Texass is more typical of the Republican thinking.


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QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator

Yep, we've got crazies all over -- including both sides of the aisle in Congress, in State Legislatures, and on the bench across America. My hope is that the voices of reason begin to emerge from among them to open meaningful gun-control dialogue.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator

A Civil Libertarian's Case for Giving Gun Control a Chance​


It may be wrong to use current events to curtail a Constitutional
right. But it's certainly wrong to let it stand untouched because
of events that took place hundreds of years ago.




clgcban.jpg



The Atlantic
By Wendy Kaminer
December 17, 2012


Should facts about gun violence matter to federal courts when they consider the constitutionality of gun control laws? That is not a rhetorical question. The Supreme Court paid scant attention to the facts when it affirmed a constitutional right to bear arms in District of Columbia v. Heller, a 5-4, 2008 decision authored by Justice Scalia. Relying almost exclusively on history, Heller struck down the D.C. ban on handguns in the home.

It was followed just last week by a 7th Circuit Court of Appeals decision striking down an Illinois ban on carrying guns outside the home. (Garrett Epps critiques the decision here.) Writing for the majority, Judge Richard Posner considered empirical evidence about the effects of carrying firearms in public, but found it inconclusive. "Anyway," Posner added, "the Supreme Court made clear in Heller that it wasn't going to make the right to bear arms depend on casualty counts."

What if the casualty counts include six- and seven-year-old children? The Newtown massacre will provoke more grief, more demands for gun control, and more of the protests of political paralysis than usually follow the horrible news of mass shootings. But so far fundamental gun rights have not been influenced much by news. They've been shaped much more by history, or rather, by a divided Supreme Court's understanding of the historical basis for the Second Amendment.

History has rarely seemed less relevant. Of course the Bill of Rights should not be construed in reaction to the news of the day, however horrific, but neither should it be governed by analyses of yesterday's news, especially when "yesterday" dates back hundreds of years. The Court has rarely seemed so remote.

Read the majority opinion in Heller alongside stories about the children killed in Newtown. It's like a letter from a judicial twilight zone: "Between the Restoration and the Glorious Revolution, the Stuart Kings Charles II and James II succeeded in using select militias loyal to them to suppress political dissidents, in part by disarming their opponents," Justice Scalia explains. "And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists."
Of course. That's why the District of Columbia may not ban handgun possession today. After all, "a New York article of April 1769 said that 't is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.'"

I'm not mocking the recognition of Second Amendment rights, to which I have long been sympathetic. (I once tried persuading the ACLU to regard the Second Amendment as a grant of individual, not collective rights.) I'm not defending the very restrictive D.C. licensing scheme. But I would have evaluated it in light of 21st century facts as well as 17th century history. I'm objecting to the court's absurdly blinkered reliance on history and its refusal to balance individual gun rights today against legislative findings regarding gun violence.

The majority did acknowledge, in passing, "the problem of handgun violence," noting that Second Amendment rights are not absolute, while neglecting to indicate how they might be limited. The court provided little if any guidance to legislatures or lower courts grappling with gun rights and regulations, as the dissent in Heller lamented. Recognizing a right of self-defense "is the beginning rather than the end of any constitutional inquiry," Justice Breyer stressed.

First, "what kind of constitutional standard should the court use?" Breyer asked. The majority didn't say. Courts generally defer to legislatures when reviewing laws that don't implicate fundamental rights, requiring only that they bear some rational relationship to a legitimate purpose. They strictly scrutinize laws limiting fundamental rights, essentially asking if the laws are necessary to serve compelling state interests. (As Breyer notes, in the first case, laws are presumed constitutional; in the second case they're presumed unconstitutional.)

He proposes evaluating gun regulations using an intermediate standard, balancing public interests and individual rights. Courts use standards like this in "time, place, and manner" speech regulations and in sex discrimination cases. The Second Circuit adopted a similar standard when it upheld New York State's strict gun laws requiring people to show particular needs for self-defense in order to obtain concealed carry permits.

In balancing interests and rights in the Heller case, Breyer stresses, the court should have "consider[ed] the facts as the legislature saw them when it adopted the District statute," in 1976. The Council conducted hearings and cited extensive evidence regarding handgun violence. Next, he adds, "consider the facts as a court must consider them looking at the matter as of today" -- referring to facts about gun violence over the past 30 years.

Perhaps the District's gun ban would have or should have been struck down had the court adopted Breyer's approach. Again, I'm not defending the D.C. law. I'm attacking the majority's backward-looking, fact-free analysis of it. Scalia's notion of originalism -- the interpretation of constitutional provisions according to common understandings of them at the time of their enactment -- has rarely seemed so irrational.

Imagine how much of an ass the law would seem if the Supreme Court had adopted a similar approach to sexual equality under the 14th Amendment. It was ratified in 1868, when women were commonly understood to be intellectually and professionally inferior to men. In 1873, the Court rejected a 14th Amendment challenge to an Illinois law barring women from the practice of law. "The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life," a concurring opinion famously explained.

Things change (sometimes slowly), and 100 years later, in Reed v. Reed, the court unanimously held that the 14th Amendment did ensure some measure of sexual equality after all. The amendment was unchanged. Still, the justices (all male) did not investigate and defer to 19th century beliefs that legal discrimination was natural, even divinely ordained. They ruled in accordance with 20th culture and declared that an "arbitrary preference established in favor of males ... cannot stand in the face of the Fourteenth Amendment's command that no State deny the equal protection of the laws to any person within its jurisdiction."

The 14th Amendment no longer means what it was understood to mean at the time of its enactment. Does Justice Scalia object? Does he believe the court should have based its new interpretation of Equal Protection on some new findings about original 19th century understandings of equality? Considering his approach to interpreting and applying the Second Amendment, you might expect him to insist on a historical justification for expanding the 14th.

"[W]hy would the majority require a precise colonial regulatory analogue in order to save a modern gun regulation from constitutional challenge?" Breyer asks rhetorically in Heller. "Given the purposes for which the Framers enacted the Second Amendment, how should it be applied to modern-day circumstances that they could not have anticipated?"

How should it be applied to circumstances that even we don't understand? Gun violence is over-determined by cultural, legal, and technological factors that defy confident analysis by 21st-century criminologists, sociologists, and mental health experts, among others. Regulation of gun ownership and use might or might not help alleviate the violence; so might a less celebratory approach to militarism and less post-9/11 paranoia. Who knows? I don't, and neither do the ghosts of centuries past.






SOURCE: http://www.theatlantic.com/national...case-for-giving-gun-control-a-chance/266336/#


 
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