It is simple for me when I look at fighters. It is all about who you fought and how you fought in those fights. It isn't just about wins for me when I measure a fighters greatness.
Roy Jones Jr. and the Legacy Debate
- Thread starter Jordan Diddy Buk
- Start date
Gotta disagree. Evander said he figured out how to beat Tyson from watching the Douglas fight, the very definition of being "exposed". Without that fight, Tyson beats Holyfield.
Yep. I'm thinking he beats Holyfield and Tyson at that point when he was still very strong and they were on a hard decline. But Lewis or the Klitschkos would have been suicide.
I forgot Ike got missing but according to the logic of some on this board, Oscar should have made that fight anyway.
Then what are you talking about in this thread? He was a strong middleweight champion and dominated the light heavyweight division, moved up and knocked off a top heavyweight and a reigning heavyweight champion.
Yes. Did they fight? Winky was all but begging and at the time was winning and had the HBO machine behind him. They were even co-promoting together. Dude even called out Oscar in his face and Oscar went, to borrow a phrase, Forrest Gump on him.
Going by your metric, doesn't Roy get credit for giving Tarver a rematch after beating him the first time? He didn't have to since he won 7-9 rounds of their first fight but he did.
Roy's mistake was ever coming back down to light heavy. He should have stayed a heavyweight and made those Tyson/Holyfield fights and retired a very, very rich man.
Oh man, a prime Holmes would have eaten Mike up to the point of crippling his career like Ali did Foreman.
Then Roy's greatness shouldn't be in question.
He was a strong middleweight champ. I give him that. He was a dominate LHW champ. But that was filled with 99% of junk fights. Not one challenging fight happened until he came back after ruiz. I give him props for the ruiz fight.
He gets credit for that fight. But to me that fight exposed him as a fighter that if you challenge him you have a chance. Roy probably wishes he kept fighting hbo supplied LHW bums after tarver. but he was going downhill and was exposed after their first fight.
That's your opinion. I am willing to say he was a great talent. I am willing to say him moving up from middleweight to beating a HW champ was incredible. But I didn't see him in enough challenging fights to know where I would rate him all time wise as a fighter.
Agreed on all accounts. And we know RJJ doesnt deal well with overhand rights....Lewis could have put dude in a coma...
No one is claiming the division was deep but he did dominate it and he beat nearly everybody. It's not like there were these great light heavys he wasn't fighting and choosing to fight gas station attendants instead.
While it looks like the beginning of the end for Roy, the first fight just looked like him having a hard time adjusting to cutting so much muscle to make weight (and he still won 7-9 rounds) and the ko in the second was just one of those things. If anything, Tarver became terribly overrated because of those two fights. If Roy had never gone up to heavy, Tarver would just be another guy nobody can remember that got beat by Roy Jones.
Of course it's my opinion but the idea of Roy's legacy being debated is in a very, very small minority, like Southerners who think they were right in the Civil War.
There weren't enough challenging fights for him because he was an incredible fighter. But he's got at least two HoF guys on his resume and a historic feat. This isn't debatable.
I like how you guys always try to cut down people's opinion with personal attacks. Because I think Roy's resume is pretty paded as legends go. I am like a southern who thinks the civil.... Why I even bother?
I dont know. When roy was barking about those guys. He was looking impressive. But against who? I wish we could have seen him fight those guys. I really do.
I missed the personal attack in that quote. I'm not above a good personal dig but you're being overly sensitive on that one.
Holyfield and Tyson? Me too. But I have/had no desire to see him fight Lewis or the Klitschkos. There's a challenge and then there's just wanting to see someone get hurt for my own bloodlust.
You're better than that Dave.
But I'm not.
I can (and have) have made exceptions. I wanted Manny to retire Margarito and give him what he was trying to give to Cotto (and probably others). But I wouldn't want to see those guys, giants among the heavyweight division, fight guys like Jones and Toney, blown up (one with muscle, the other with fat) light heavys.
I hope Cotto permanently damages his other eye on Dec. 3rd.
I was jk anyway. I'm not a dude who likes to see violence just for the sake of violence but on the other hand if a dude knows he's getting into some serious shit and does it for the paycheck, I find it hard to feel sorry for them. Like you though, Margarito was a definite exception. I wouldn't be mad at all if he got a Davey Moore-like beating
I hope Cotto permanently damages his other eye on Dec. 3rd.
I was jk anyway. I'm not a dude who likes to see violence just for the sake of violence but on the other hand if a dude knows he's getting into some serious shit and does it for the paycheck, I find it hard to feel sorry for them. Like you though, Margarito was a definite exception. I wouldn't be mad at all if he got a Davey Moore-like beating
Agreed.
Cotto-Margarito II.
With jr middle as deep as it is, this is who Cotto fights? If he loses, he should just quit.
Agreed.
Cotto-Margarito II.
Another Bob Arum in-house production.
I wanted to see him fight Pawel Wolak. Dude is a beast.Another Bob Arum in-house production.
Wolak? Gotta check him out.
Dude fights all 3 minutes of every round, phone booth type dude. Pretty good power, he's also a relentless combo puncher and he digs to the body at every opportunity. He's not a technical guy but his fights are very exciting, I think his style would give Cotto a lot of problems. He's like a smaller, faster, Margarito. I thought that was the logical match up being that they beat Foreman back to back and they're both Top Rank guys. But Bob Arum
Did I say john ruiz was great? No matter what you think of ruiz he was still a two time champ. And roy beating him was impressive.
I raised this same point to my friends when the subject of Tyson vs. the Klitschko brothers came up and I said that Tyson could beat one, but I was unsure about both...I think Vitali could beat him and they completely wrote off that notion and they were like
Dude fights all 3 minutes of every round, phone booth type dude. Pretty good power, he's also a relentless combo puncher and he digs to the body at every opportunity. He's not a technical guy but his fights are very exciting, I think his style would give Cotto a lot of problems. He's like a smaller, faster, Margarito. I thought that was the logical match up being that they beat Foreman back to back and they're both Top Rank guys. But Bob Arum
You know he's cashing out (did we invent that phrase?) Margarito while some Mexicans will still pay to see him fight. First Pac and now a Puerto Rico vs Mexico revenge fight. Arum's like Vince McMahon with this shit.
I raised this same point to my friends when the subject of Tyson vs. the Klitschko brothers came up and I said that Tyson could beat one, but I was unsure about both...I think Vitali could beat him and they completely wrote off that notion and they were like
The legend is always bigger and better than reality.