2008 Presidential Polls

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="4">
Electoral Vote Count According to

Polls through September 1, 2008;

(Without Toss Ups):</font size><font size="4">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 273

McCain: 265:



_________________________
Electoral Vote Count According to

Polls through September 17, 2008;

(Without Toss Ups):

Needed to win: 270

Obama-Biden: 273

McCain-Palin: 265


</font size>​

 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5"><center>Why Ohio is still up for grabs</font size></center>


Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
By James O'Toole
Sunday, September 21, 2008


VIENNA, Ohio -- Election night, 1960. The Buckeye State is slipping into the column of Richard M. Nixon. John F. Kennedy, watching the returns in his Hyannis Port home, displayed a hand and forearm scratched and swollen from countless handshakes.

"Ohio did this to me,'' he said.

The episode, recounted in Theodore H. White seminal campaign chronicle, "The Making of the President 1960," would not be the last time that Ohio's voters frustrated a Democratic candidate.

Four years ago, Sen. John F. Kerry rolled up big early margins in Cuyahoga County and Franklin County, the counties that surround Cleveland and Columbus, and down through the Mahoning Valley, the product of one of the most effective turnout operations in the state's history.

"If you had told me the day before the election the kind of margins Kerry would get [in Democratic areas], I'd have been celebrating," said Jim Ruvalo, a veteran Democratic consultant and former chairman of the state Democratic Party.

But President Bush benefited from an even more potent get-out-the-vote drive elsewhere in the state. After a long night of counting, the Republican ticket was ahead, 51 percent to 49 percent, enough to deliver the state, the nation and a delayed concession speech from Mr. Kerry.

A state that has been part of the electoral vote majority for every successful Republican presidential candidate would seem ripe for a Democratic candidate this year. Its unemployment rate is 7.2 percent, well ahead of the national rate of 5.5 percent after years of losses of manufacturing jobs. The faltering economy has forced the new Democratic governor, Ted Strickland, to cut nearly $1.3 billion from the state's budget this year. Mr. Strickland led a political resurgence for his party in 2006, as Democrats captured the governor's mansion, a Senate seat and a U.S. House seat.

But Ohio is again a bellwether for the nation as the site of an extraordinarily close battle between Sens. Barack Obama and John McCain, one that has the potential to again determine the next occupant of the White House. Reflecting that status, both sides have poured money and candidate time into the state.

And in their no-stone-unturned competition, both hope to prevail in part by poaching votes from regions within the state that normally favor the other party.

The Mahoning Valley is one of them. With his running mate, Gov. Sarah Palin, Mr. McCain appeared here again this week, lavishing his attention on a working class corner of the state that's normally a reliable cache of Democratic votes.

"He's been here as many times as he's been any place in Ohio,'' former Sen. Mike DeWine, Mr. McCain's Ohio chairman, said over the din of workmen clearing away the debris from his candidate's rally Tuesday. "John McCain believes he is competitive in the Mahoning Valley. I don't think there's any place else he's been three times.''

Counting this week's appearance, Mr. McCain has spent all or part of 18 campaign days in Ohio since securing his nomination. According to his campaign, Sen. Barack Obama has visited the state eight times since he locked up the Democratic spot.

The imbalance is a little deceptive, however, since Mr. Obama campaigned in the state extensively before its March 3 primary. But it's clear that few states have had so much collective attention from the campaigns. On Thursday, hot on the heels of the opposing ticket, Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. was in Youngstown, at the end of a cross-state bus tour.


<font size="4">Edge in polls to McCain</font size>

In the weeks since their nominating conventions wrapped up, the two campaigns have spent roughly $800,000 each on Ohio television, according to the nonpartisan Wisconsin Advertising Project. For the McCain campaign, that spending trailed only Pennsylvania and Florida. In the same period, Mr. Obama spent more only in Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan and Virginia.

The result, according to a variety of polls, is a state very much up for grabs less than seven weeks before the election. Here, as nationally, the McCain-Palin team bounced up in the days following the Republican National Convention. But in recent days, the numbers moved back to near even.

Just last week, a CNN/Time survey put Mr. Obama ahead, 49 percent to 47 percent. A Fox/Rasmussen survey had it the other way, 48 percent for Mr. McCain and 45 percent for the Democrat. The common denominator in almost every one of the slew of surveys this past week was that the difference between the candidates was within the polls' margins of error.

Aggregating the results, the web site Pollster.com saw a McCain lead of 47 percent to 44.6 percent. Realclearpolitics.com sees a similarly close race, with Mr. McCain up in its polling average by 1.2 percent.

Mr. Strickland, who represented a congressional district that covers part of the Mahoning Valley and the state's traditional manufacturing communities has expressed incredulity that Mr. McCain would even seek votes in the area. These communities, he argues, were battered by the trade policies of the Bush administration.

Four years ago, Mr. Kerry carried Trumbull and Mahoning counties, the sites of the unusual attention from the McCain campaign, with more than 60 percent of the vote.


<font size="4">The race issue</font size>

But the governor is also among a handful of Ohio Democrats who have spoken out in recent weeks expressing concern that some traditional Democrats in these and other Ohio comminutes will balk at voting for Mr. Obama because of his race.

In an interview with the Cleveland Plain Dealer earlier this summer, the governor referred to the racial issue as "the elephant in the room,'' that many voters and commentators would rather ignore.

"There are good people, who won't vote for Obama, because he's a black man,'' Mr. Strickland said at another point.

"Anyone who doesn't think race is an issue has their head in the sand," said Mr. Ruvalo. "Is it an issue that will be determinative? I don't know."

Mr. DeWine eagerly anticipates McCain making inroads with working-class white voters, but he dismisses the suggestion that race is the motivator.

"I think people are mistaking the race issue for other things,'' he said. "Obama is too much like John Kerry. People have a hard time relating to him. And like Kerry, he has a hard time relating to the average person, the average guy."

Of his own candidate, the former Republican senator said, "I think on some gut issues, he's much closer to where people are in the Mahoning Valley, someone along the Ohio River, someone in Parma. I think on some gut issues, he's much closer to where people are ... guns, abortion, marriage, the things commonly referred to as the social issues. I think you'll find that's true for much of the state."

Every Ohio survey, however, finds the economy as the prime issue in the race. David Leland, another former state Democratic chairman, sees that as the key to an Obama victory.

"Ohio is ground zero in terms of what's been happening to the national economy," he said. "[Mr. Obama] needs to connect with the Mahoning Valley, with southern Ohio ... on an economic message. But you do have people who have never voted for an African-American. ... That's a challenge not just for Barack but for every Ohio Democrat.''

Mr. Obama has one key asset that neither Mr. Kerry nor former Vice President Al Gore enjoyed in their close but unsuccessful attempts to capture the state's 20 electoral votes. That's the support of an incumbent governor.

Pennsylvania shares more than a border with Ohio. Among their demographic similarities are their ethnic mix, with German the most common ancestry followed by Irish. African-Americans represent about 11 percent of Ohio, just about 10 percent of Pennsylvanians. Their urban-rural proportions are an almost identical -- 77 percent to 23 percent. But their political characters are different. Republicans have traditionally been stronger in Ohio compared to the more seesaw relationship of the parties in Pennsylvania.


<font size="4">Democratic surge</font size>

The recent past has been tough on Ohio Republicans. The economy, opposition to the Iraq War and financial scandals battered the GOP prior to the 2006 elections, which brought major gains to the state's Democrats, Mr. Strickland's landslide victory for governor chief among them.

Mr. Strickland was firmly in the camp of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton during the primary that she won handily over Mr. Obama. By then, Mr. McCain had already wrapped up the GOP race.

Now, Mr. Strickland is lined up behind Mr. Obama. His former campaign manager, Aaron Pickrell, directs the Obama effort in the state, one that Democrats describe as potentially the most robust ground game in the state's history. Mr. Pickrell was also the political director of former Sen. John Edwards's Iowa organization, an effort that produced a strong second-place showing against Mr. Obama.

Throughout the primaries, the Obama campaign cultivated a reputation for their grass-roots prowess in states across the country. In Ohio, that's melded to the homegrown apparatus that produced for Mr. Strickland.

"I think it has an impact that we finally have a Democratic governor,'' Mr. Ruvalo said. "He has an organization; he knows how to win. We haven't had that in 16 years.''

The operation includes a network of offices across the state.

Pointing to the unprecedented turnout that the Bush campaign produced in the state's rural and exurban communities, Mr. Ruvalo said, "Democrats have learned that we can't concentrate on the same eight or 12 counties. The Obama campaign has opened offices everywhere, not that you are going to win everywhere, but you can get votes everywhere; you can hold down the margins."

Mr. DeWine dismisses the suggestion that the GOP will be out-organized in the state.

"What is true is that they have a more extensive paid organization,'' he said. "I think we have the better organization, and we've done it before. We're building on what we did four years ago and eight years ago."

The Republican campaign, in Ohio and Pennsylvania, is quarterbacked by Jon Seaton. A veteran of the White House office of political affairs, Mr. Seaton was national field director of the McCain campaign last year before the financial implosion that nearly ended the senator's White House bid. He went on to head Mr. McCain's Iowa operation before signing on as regional campaign manager for Ohio and Pennsylvania.

"We had a late start," Mr. DeWine acknowledged, "but it's kicked in hard in the last month. ... I can tell you we're ahead in phone calls from where we were four years ago. They may have more paid people but we have more Ohioans on the ground."

Post-Gazette politics editor James O'Toole can be reached at jotoole@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1562.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08265/913867-470.stm
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">

General Election: McCain vs. Obama</font size><font size="4">
Sepember 9, 2008 through September 21, 2008</font size>





CNN/Opinion Research
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 697 Likely Voters
Obama: 51
McCain: 47
Spread: Obama +4


Gallup Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +4



Rasmussen Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 47
Spread: Obama +1




Hotline/FD Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 922 Likely Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 42
Spread: Obama +5




Battleground Tracking
Date: [/b]09/14 - 09/21
Sample: 800 Likely Voters
McCain: 48
Obama: 47
Spread: McCain +1




CBS News/NY Times
Date:
09/12 - 09/16
Sample: Likely Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +5



Quinnipiac
Date:
09/11 - 09/16
Sample: 987 Likely Voters
McCain: 45
Obama: 49
Spread: Obama +4




Pew Research
Date:
09/09 - 09/14
Sample: 2,307 Likely Voters
Obama: 46
McCain: 46
Spread: Tie





<font size="4">The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>

Date: 09/09 - 09/21
Obama: 48.1
McCain: 45.4
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 2.7</font size>


 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
Battleground States
McCain v. Obama
Through, September 21, 2008
</font size>




<font size=”4">Colorado (9 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/07 - 09/10
Obama: 48.3
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +2.3



Date: 09/07 - 09/17
Obama: 47.3
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +2.5




<font size=”4">Ohio (20 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
Obama: 45.6
McCain: 47.8
Spread: McCain +2.2


Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 45.0
McCain: 46.8
Spread: McCain +1.8




<font size=”4">Florida (27 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
McCain: 49.5
Obama: 44.5
Spread: McCain +5.0


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
McCain: 48.6
Obama: 45.8
Spread: McCain +2.8




<font size=”4">Michigan (17 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date:09/05 - 09/09
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 45.0
Spread: Obama +2.0


Date:09/07 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 43.8
Spread: Obama +4.0




<font size="4">Virginia (13 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/09
McCain: 49.3
Obama: 46.7
Spread: McCain +2.6


Date: 09/10 - 09/21
McCain: 47.3
Obama: 46.0
Spread: McCain +1.3




<font size="4">Nevada (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 45.8
McCain: 48.6
Spread: McCain +1.0


Date: 09/1- - 09/21
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 47.0
Spread: McCain +1.7




<font size="4">Wisconsin (10 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 40.8
Spread: Obama +7.2



Date: 09/13 - 09/17
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 45.7
Spread: Obama +2.0




<font size="4">New Hampshire (4 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 07/11 - 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +3.3



Date: 09/18 - 09/21
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +1.7




<font size=”4">New Mexico (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/08
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +2.3


Date: 09/08 - 09/019
Obama: 50.3
McCain: 44.3
Spread: Obama +6.0





<font size=”4">Missouri (11 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/11
Obama: 43.7
McCain: 50.3
Spread: McCain +6.6

Date: 09/07 - 09/18
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 50.0
Spread: McCain +4.7
 
Last edited:

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
Battleground States
McCain v. Obama
Through, September 21, 2008
</font size>




<font size=”4">Colorado (9 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/07 - 09/10
Obama: 48.3
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +2.3



Date: 09/07 - 09/17
Obama: 47.3
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +2.5 [/indent


Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 44.5
Spread: Obama +3.3
For All Polls Considered in Average: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/co/colorado_mccain_vs_obama-546.html



<font size=”4">Ohio (20 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
Obama: 45.6
McCain: 47.8
Spread: McCain +2.2


Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 45.0
McCain: 46.8
Spread: McCain +1.8



<font size=”4">Florida (27 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
McCain: 49.5
Obama: 44.5
Spread: McCain +5.0


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
McCain: 48.6
Obama: 45.8
Spread: McCain +2.8


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
Obama: 46.0
McCain: 48.0
Spread: McCain +2.0




<font size=”4">Michigan (17 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date:09/05 - 09/09
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 45.0
Spread: Obama +2.0


Date:09/07 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 43.8
Spread: Obama +4.0


Date:09/14 - 09/21
Obama: 48.4
McCain: 43.4
Spread: Obama +5.0
For All Polls Considered in Average: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/mi/michigan_mccain_vs_obama-553.html




<font size="4">Virginia (13 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/09
McCain: 49.3
Obama: 46.7
Spread: McCain +2.6


Date: 09/10 - 09/21
McCain: 47.3
Obama: 46.0
Spread: McCain +1.3




<font size="4">Nevada (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 45.8
McCain: 48.6
Spread: McCain +1.0


Date: 09/1- - 09/21
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 47.0
Spread: McCain +1.7




<font size="4">Wisconsin (10 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 40.8
Spread: Obama +7.2



Date: 09/13 - 09/17
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 45.7
Spread: Obama +2.0




<font size="4">New Hampshire (4 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 07/11 - 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +3.3



Date: 09/18 - 09/21
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +1.7




<font size=”4">New Mexico (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/08
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +2.3


Date: 09/08 - 09/019
Obama: 50.3
McCain: 44.3
Spread: Obama +6.0





<font size=”4">Missouri (11 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/11
Obama: 43.7
McCain: 50.3
Spread: McCain +6.6

Date: 09/07 - 09/18
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 50.0
Spread: McCain +4.7



<font size="4">Pennsylvania (21 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.5
Spread: Obama +2.5
For All Polls Considered in Average: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_mccain_vs_obama-244.html



`
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5"><center>New poll finds Obama leading
in four battleground states</font size></center>



McClatchy Newspapers
By Steven Thomma
Tuesday, September 23, 2008

WASHINGTON — Hunger for change is helping Barack Obama hold a small lead in four battleground states, a new poll indicates today.

The numbers:
  • In Colorado, Obama leads John McCain 49-45. He had trailed in the last
    survey there before the conventions;

  • In Michigan, Obama leads 48-44. He also led by 4 points before;

  • In Minnesota, Obama leads 47-45. He also led by 2 points before;

  • In Wisconsin, Obama leads 49-42. He had led by a wider margin before.
(Moderators Note: See the Real Clear Politics Poll numbers above; some of the leads are slightly larger than the surveys in this article. QueEx)​
The key reason for Obama's edge appears to be that voters wants change, and by wide margins see Obama as the more likely agent of change than McCain. They preferred Obama to change things by margins ranging from 19 to 24 points.

"With a lousy economy, an unpopular war and an even less popular Republican president, it's difficult to find voters who don't want change," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Polling Institute at Quinnipiac University, which conducted the polls in conjunction with the Wall Street Journal and washingtonpost.com.

"Sen. Obama...has made himself the candidate of change with a dual track strategy: joining Sen. McCain at the hip with President George Bush, who symbolizes the status quo, while sharply defining himself and his policies as the antithesis of the president.

"The Wall Street meltdown while these polls were in the field probably fed the public desire for change and seemed to benefit Sen. Obama."

The polls each has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.6 or 2.7 percentage points.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/100/story/52943.html
 

VegasGuy

Star
OG Investor
Breaking: ABC/Post Poll- Obama 52% ~ McCain 43% w/ Likely Voters!
by Hope Reborn
Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:10:00 PM PDT

I just saw this across the screen on Nightline... Incredible, the lead is GROWING

Obama: 52% (47%)
McCain: 43% (49%)

Among likely voters!

ABC here

McCain’s bounce – on individual issues and attributes as well as in overall preference – is gone.

In a head-to-head-match-up he’s now supported by 52 percent of likely
voters vs. McCain’s 43 percent, the first significant advantage for either candidate among likely voters in ABC/Post polls. Add third-party candidates Ralph Nader and Bob Barr
and it’s essentially the same, 51-43 percent.

Barack Obama has seized the reins of economic discontent, vaulting over John McCain's convention gains by persuading voters he both better understands their economic troubles and can better address them.

* Hope Reborn's diary :: ::
*

PDF of poll here

He's recovered to a 14-point lead over McCain in trust to handle the economy, and leads by 13 points specifically in trust to deal with the meltdown of major financial institutions.

Obama leads by more, 24 points, 57-33 percent, in better understanding the public's economic problems.

Tellingly, after trailing by 17 points, he's pulled even with McCain in trust to handle a major crisis. And Obama holds wide margins in vote preference among likely voters most concerned about the economy.

This is a blockbuster poll... a cascade moment... this is HUGE and will drive the news tomorrow...

Do More to Bring Change:
Obama 58%
McCain 33%

More Honest and Trustworthy:
Obama: 47%
McCain: 36%

Stronger Leader:
Obama: 47%
McCain: 46%

Understands Economic Problems:
Obama: 57%
McCain: 33%

Palin Favorability has slipped to 52% from 58%, falling notably with white Catholics and white College Graduates. Additionally, McCain's enthusiasm which was at 46% has slid to 34%, while Obama is rock solid with Very Enthusiastic at 62%.

Age is the new Race, with 48% saying its a significant issue; Obama leading 63-32% among them... only 16% see race as an issue (note to AP and Yahoo polls, find a new fucking question...)

And in what may give Cokie Roberts pause in her punditry, look at white women:
Obama: 49% (43%)
McCain: 47% (54%)

More swing groups!!!

White Catholics:
Obama 47% (38%)
McCain 46% (57%)

Independents:
Obama: 53% (42%)
McCain: 39% (52%)

Married Women:
Obama: 51% (42%)
McCain: 46% (53%)

Big Question for Media: IS OBAMA NOW RUNNING AWAY WITH THE ELECTION?

and in case you missed it, McCain has officially LOST HIS BASE

from the DailyKos

-VG
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
Battleground States
McCain v. Obama
Through, September 22, 2008
</font size>




<font size=”4">Colorado (9 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/07 - 09/10
Obama: 48.3
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +2.3



Date: 09/07 - 09/17
Obama: 47.3
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +2.5



Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 44.5
Spread: Obama +3.3


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/11 - 09/22
Obama: 48.4
McCain: 44.4
Spread: Obama +4.0




<font size=”4">Ohio (20 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
Obama: 45.6
McCain: 47.8
Spread: McCain +2.2


Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 45.0
McCain: 46.8
Spread: McCain +1.8


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/11 - 09/22
Obama: 45.1
McCain: 46.7
Spread: McCain +1.6



<font size=”4">Florida (27 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
McCain: 49.5
Obama: 44.5
Spread: McCain +5.0


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
McCain: 48.6
Obama: 45.8
Spread: McCain +2.8


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
Obama: 46.0
McCain: 48.0
Spread: McCain +2.0




<font size=”4">Michigan (17 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date:09/05 - 09/09
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 45.0
Spread: Obama +2.0


Date:09/07 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 43.8
Spread: Obama +4.0


Date:09/14 - 09/21
Obama: 48.4
McCain: 43.4
Spread: Obama +5.0
For All Polls Considered in Average: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/mi/michigan_mccain_vs_obama-553.html




<font size="4">Virginia (13 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/09
McCain: 49.3
Obama: 46.7
Spread: McCain +2.6


Date: 09/10 - 09/21
McCain: 47.3
Obama: 46.0
Spread: McCain +1.3


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/11 - 09/22
McCain: 47.3
Obama: 46.5
Spread: McCain +0.8



<font size="4">Nevada (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 45.8
McCain: 48.6
Spread: McCain +1.0


Date: 09/1- - 09/21
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 47.0
Spread: McCain +1.7




<font size="4">Wisconsin (10 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 40.8
Spread: Obama +7.2



Date: 09/13 - 09/17
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 45.7
Spread: Obama +2.0


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/13 - 09/21
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +3.2




<font size="4">New Hampshire (4 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 07/11 - 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +3.3



Date: 09/18 - 09/21
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +1.7




<font size=”4">New Mexico (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/08
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +2.3


Date: 09/08 - 09/019
Obama: 50.3
McCain: 44.3
Spread: Obama +6.0





<font size=”4">Missouri (11 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/11
Obama: 43.7
McCain: 50.3
Spread: McCain +6.6

Date: 09/07 - 09/18
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 50.0
Spread: McCain +4.7



<font size="4">Pennsylvania (21 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.5
Spread: Obama +2.5
For All Polls Considered in Average: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_mccain_vs_obama-244.html



`
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">

General Election: McCain vs. Obama</font size><font size="4">
Sepember 19, 2008 through September 24, 2008</font size>





CNN/Opinion Research
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 697 Likely Voters
Obama: 51
McCain: 47
Spread: Obama +4


Gallup Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +4

*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/21 - 09/23
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +3



Rasmussen Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 47
Spread: Obama +1


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/22 - 09/24
Sample: 2,300 Likely Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 46
Spread: Obama +3



Hotline/FD Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 922 Likely Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 42
Spread: Obama +5


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/22 - 09/24
Sample: 912 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +4



Battleground Tracking
Date: [/b]09/14 - 09/21
Sample: 800 Likely Voters
McCain: 48
Obama: 47
Spread: McCain +1

*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/18 - 09/24
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 48
Spread: McCain +1




FOX News
Date:
09/22 - 09/23
Sample: 900 Registered Voters
Obama: 45
McCain: 39
Spread: Obama +6 [/indent]




NBC News/Wall Street Journal
Date:
09/19 - 09/22
Sample: 1085 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 46
Spread: Obama +2 [/indent]




ABC News/Washington Post
Date:
09/19 - 09/22
Sample: 780 Likely Voters
Obama: 52
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +9 [/indent]




L. A. Times/Bloomberg
Date:
09/19 - 09/22
Sample: 838 Registered Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 45
Spread: Obama +4 [/indent]




Ipsos-McClatchy
Date:
09/18 - 09/22
Sample: 923 Registered Voters
Obama: 44
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +1 [/indent]




<font size="4">The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>

Date: 09/22 - 09/24
Obama: 47.9
McCain: 44.4
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 3.5</font size>


 

VegasGuy

Star
OG Investor
I hope Obama shows up at the debate anyway. Get these poll numbers up higher. But my sneaky suspicion is, McCain will show up and make a grand entrance. Like he went out of his way to comply for Obama's sake.

-VG
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
I hope Obama shows up at the debate anyway. Get these poll numbers up higher. But my sneaky suspicion is, McCain will show up and make a grand entrance. Like he went out of his way to comply for Obama's sake.

-VG
Oh, he "showed up" well, in my estimation. The numbers are up, even before the debate last night, I haven't had a chance to organize and post them. I'll get to them later today, hopefully, before I "suit up" LOL to watch my favorite college football teams today.

QueEx
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">

General Election: McCain vs. Obama</font size><font size="4">
Sepember 21, 2008 through September 26, 2008</font size>





Gallup Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +4



Date: 09/21 - 09/23
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +3


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/24 - 09/26
Sample: 2,759 Registered Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +5



Rasmussen Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 47
Spread: Obama +1


Date:[/b] 09/22 - 09/24
Sample: 2,300 Likely Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 46
Spread: Obama +3


*** NEW ***

Date: 09/24 - 09/26
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 45
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +6



Hotline/FD Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 922 Likely Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 42
Spread: Obama +5


Date: 09/22 - 09/24
Sample: 912 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +4


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/24 - 09/26
Sample: 914 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +5



Battleground Tracking
Date:
09/14 - 09/21
Sample: 800 Likely Voters
McCain: 48
Obama: 47
Spread: McCain +1

Date:[/b] 09/18 - 09/24
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 48
Spread: McCain +1


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/21 - 09/25
Sample: 1,000 Registered Voters
Obama: 46
McCain: 48
Spread: McCain +2



FOX News
Date:
09/22 - 09/23
Sample: 900 Registered Voters
Obama: 45
McCain: 39
Spread: Obama +6 [/indent]



Marist
Date:
09/22 - 09/23
Sample:['/b] 689 Likely Voters
Obama: 49
McCain:[ 44
Spread: Obama +5 [/indent]





<font size="4">The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>

Date: 09/22 - 09/24
Obama: 47.9
McCain: 44.4
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 3.5</font size>



<font size="4">* * * NEW * * *
The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>

Date:
09/21 - 09/26
Obama: 47.9
McCain: 43.6
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 4.3</font size>


 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
Battleground States
McCain v. Obama
Through, September 25, 2008
</font size>




<font size=”4">Colorado (9 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/07 - 09/10
Obama: 48.3
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +2.3



Date: 09/07 - 09/17
Obama: 47.3
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +2.5



Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 44.5
Spread: Obama +3.3



Date:​
09/11 - 09/22
Obama: 48.4
McCain: 44.4
Spread: Obama +4.0


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/11 - 09/23
Obama: 50.2
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +5.4




<font size=”4">Ohio (20 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
Obama: 45.6
McCain: 47.8
Spread: McCain +2.2


Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 45.0
McCain: 46.8
Spread: McCain +1.8


Date: 09/11 - 09/22
Obama: 45.1
McCain: 46.7
Spread: McCain +1.6


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/11 - 09/24
Obama: 45.1
McCain: 46.3
Spread: McCain +1.2




<font size=”4">Florida (27 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/10
McCain: 49.5
Obama: 44.5
Spread: McCain +5.0


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
McCain: 48.6
Obama: 45.8
Spread: McCain +2.8


Date: 09/14 - 09/21
Obama: 46.0
McCain: 48.0
Spread: McCain +2.0


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/14 - 09/24
Obama: 46.0
McCain: 47.6
Spread: McCain +1.6




<font size=”4">Michigan (17 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date:09/05 - 09/09
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 45.0
Spread: Obama +2.0


Date:09/07 - 09/21
Obama: 47.8
McCain: 43.8
Spread: Obama +4.0


Date:09/14 - 09/21
Obama: 48.4
McCain: 43.4
Spread: Obama +5.0



*** NEW ***

Date:09/18 - 09/24
Obama: 48.9
McCain: 42.3
Spread: Obama +6.6





<font size="4">Virginia (13 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/05 - 09/09
McCain: 49.3
Obama: 46.7
Spread: McCain +2.6


Date: 09/10 - 09/21
McCain: 47.3
Obama: 46.0
Spread: McCain +1.3


Date:​
09/11 - 09/22
McCain: 47.3
Obama: 46.5
Spread: McCain +0.8


<font size="3">*** NEW ***</font size>

Date:
09/17 - 09/25
McCain: 46.2
Obama: 48.0
Spread: <font size="3">Obama +1.8 </font size>



<font size="4">Nevada (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 45.8
McCain: 48.6
Spread: McCain +1.0


Date: 09/1- - 09/21
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 47.0
Spread: McCain +1.7




<font size="4">Wisconsin (10 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 40.8
Spread: Obama +7.2



Date: 09/13 - 09/17
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 45.7
Spread: Obama +2.0


Date:​
09/13 - 09/21
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 44.8
Spread: Obama +3.2


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/13 - 09/23
Obama: 48.2
McCain: 44.4
Spread: Obama +3.8




<font size="4">New Hampshire (4 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 07/11 - 09/09
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +3.3



Date: 09/18 - 09/21
Obama: 47.7
McCain: 46.0
Spread: Obama +1.7




<font size=”4">New Mexico (5 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/08
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.7
Spread: Obama +2.3


Date: 09/08 - 09/019
Obama: 50.3
McCain: 44.3
Spread: Obama +6.0





<font size=”4">Missouri (11 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 08/13 - 09/11
Obama: 43.7
McCain: 50.3
Spread: McCain +6.6

Date: 09/07 - 09/18
Obama: 45.3
McCain: 50.0
Spread: McCain +4.7


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/07 - 09/24
Obama: 45.8
McCain: 49.0
Spread: McCain +3.2



<font size="4">Pennsylvania (21 Electoral Votes)</font size>

Date: 09/11 - 09/21
Obama: 47.0
McCain: 44.5
Spread: Obama +2.5


*** NEW ***

Date:
09/18 - 09/25
Obama: 48.2
McCain: 43.8
Spread: Obama +4.4





`
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
Battleground States - Change of Status
Through September 26, 2008:
</font size>

<font size="4">Oregon</font size>

Date: 09/26
was: Leaning Obama
Now: Solid Obama


<font size="4">Missouri</font size>

Date: 09/26
was: Leaning McCain
Now: Toss Up


<font size="4">Michigan</font size>

Date: 09/25
was: Toss Up
Now: Leaning Obama


<font size="4">West Virginia</font size>

Date: 09/25
was: Solid McCain
Now: Leaning McCain


<font size="4">North Carolina</font size>

Date: 09/26
was: Leaning McCain
Now: Toss Up


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/#data
 

VegasGuy

Star
OG Investor
2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

A pair of one-night polls gave Barack Obama a clear edge over John McCain in their first presidential debate.

Fifty-one percent said Obama, the Democrat, did a better job in Friday night's faceoff while 38 percent preferred the Republican McCain, according to a CNN-Opinion Research Corp. survey of adults.

Obama was widely considered more intelligent, likable and in touch with peoples' problems, and by modest margins was seen as the stronger leader and more sincere. Most said it was McCain who spent more time attacking his opponent.

About six in 10 said each did a better job than expected. Seven in 10 said each seemed capable of being president.

In a CBS News poll of people not committed to a candidate, 39 percent said Obama won the debate, 24 percent said McCain and 37 percent called it a tie. Twice as many said Obama understands their needs than said so about McCain.

Seventy-eight percent said McCain is prepared to be president, about the same proportion of uncommitted voters as said so before the debate. Sixty percent said Obama is ready — a lower score than McCain, but a solid 16-percentage-point improvement from before the debate.

In another Obama advantage in the CBS poll, far more said their image of him had improved as a result of the debate than said it had worsened. More also said their view of McCain had gotten better rather than worse, but by a modest margin.

The CNN poll involved telephone interviews with 524 adults who watched the debate and had a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points. The CBS survey involved online interviews with 483 uncommitted voters who saw the debate and had an error margin of plus or minus 4 points. It was conducted by Knowledge Networks, which initially selected the respondents by telephone.

Both polls were conducted Friday night.

Polls conducted on one night can be less reliable than surveys conducted over several nights because they only include the views of people available that particular evening.

from Yahoo

-VG
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

<font size="3">
Thanks VG. Looks like Barack made a pretty good showing among the undecided:</font size>
Yahoo said:
. . . according to a CNN-Opinion Research Corp. survey of adults.

Seven in 10 said [Obama] seemed capable of being president

Yahoo said:
In a CBS News poll of people not committed to a candidate . . .

Seventy-eight percent said McCain is prepared to be president, about the same proportion of uncommitted voters as said so before the debate. Sixty percent said Obama is ready — a lower score than McCain, but a solid 16-percentage-point improvement from before the debate.

<font size="3">With this result coming out of the first Presidential debates, look for McCain & Co., to look to Sarah Palin to attack Barack hard. She has to drop the pretense on the Bridge to nowhere; she's going to look silly trying to build a foreign policy profile based on a piece of barren Russian coast being visible from Alaska; therefore, they must be planning to use her as an attack dog.

QueEx

</font size>
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

<font size="3">
Some of the Editorial Comment, that followed the debate:

</font size>

<IFRAME SRC="http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/09/editorial_round_up_on_the_deba.html" WIDTH=780 HEIGHT=1500>
<A HREF="http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/09/editorial_round_up_on_the_deba.html">link</A>

</IFRAME>
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
<center>Estimated Electoral Vote Count
(With Toss Ups)
</font size><font size="4">

</center>

<u>As of September 1, 2008</u>:</font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 228

McCain: 185:

Toss Up: 125







<u>As of September 17, 2008</u>:</font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 212

McCain: 216:

Toss Up: 110




<font size="4">

_____________________
As of September 28, 2008:
_____________________
</font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 228

McCain: 163:

Toss Up: 147




Click here for Map of Red and Blue States.


`
 

Garifuna

Star
Registered
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

I don't need any polls. I listened to the debate on the radio, and it was a draw. A draw means that Obama didn't do well; a draw equals a loss for Obama, and a win for McCain.

Maybe people watching the debate on TV saw something that I didn't hear.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">
<center>Estimated Electoral Vote Count
(Without Toss Ups)
</font size><font size="4">

</center>

<u>As of September 1, 2008</u>:</font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 273

McCain: 265:







<u>As of September 17, 2008</u>:</font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 273

McCain: 265:




<font size="4"><u>As of September 28, 2008:</u></font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 286

McCain: 252:







<font size="4">

_____________________
As of October 9, 2008:
_____________________
</font size><font size="3">

Needed to win: 270

Obama: 353

McCain: 185:






[url="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10”[/url] Click here for Map of Red and Blue States.[/url]


`
 
Last edited:

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

I don't need any polls. I listened to the debate on the radio, and it was a draw. A draw means that Obama didn't do well; a draw equals a loss for Obama, and a win for McCain.

Maybe people watching the debate on TV saw something that I didn't hear.

Wow. The so-called experts said that:

- Foreign Affairs is John McCain's forte;

- Foreign Affairs <u>is not</u> Barack Obama's forte; and

- John McCain is "supposed to win" on Foreign Affairs.​
YOU said there is a tie; and, therefore,

Obama loses because he tied McCain in an area McCain was "supposed to win ???

You must know that what you said makes absolutely NO SENSE, right ???

:smh:


QueEx
 

VegasGuy

Star
OG Investor
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

I don't need any polls. I listened to the debate on the radio, and it was a draw. A draw means that Obama didn't do well; a draw equals a loss for Obama, and a win for McCain.

Maybe people watching the debate on TV saw something that I didn't hear.

I guess that all depends on something commonly known as "prospective."

If Mike Tyson the boxer, in his prime of primes was expected to beat the shit out of Buster Douglas, but instead Mike Tyson ended up on his ass, himself knocked the fuck out, only his surrogates and maybe his bitch would say, "Mike Tyson just had an off night."

Then say those who believed that a Buster Douglas really won the fight and anybody who believes a nobody like Buster Douglas could really beat a heavy weight title holder are nothing but a bunch of fools are themselves what is commonly known as "delusional."

My point is, McCain's strongest and hardest punch was supposed to be foreign policy. He was expected to wipe the floor with Obama in this arena. According to a clear majority of those who watched did not see that happen. And in the throws of the debate as well as on style points, Obama was shown to be MORE PRESIDENTIAL than McCain by the majority of those undecided voters.

You are clearly in the minority on this one Garifuna; along with Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hanneity, FixedNews, the KKK, Van Allen, theblackwallstreet.com,...etc. lol.

-VG
 

Garifuna

Star
Registered
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

I guess that all depends on something commonly known as "prospective." ....

I am agreeing with you - kind of - in that I believe there is a double standard at work here.

John McCain doesn't need to deliver a knockout punch to win. John McCain doesn't need to appear MORE presidential. John McCain just needs to appear presidential, and avoid getting knocked out.

Barack Obama is the candidate with the Black skin. Barack Obama needs to deliver a knockout punch to win. Barack Obama needs to do more than just appear presidential. He has to expose John McCain as non-presidential. He has to do it without negative attacks.

It's possible that the country is so fed up with George W Bush that Obama can win by making John McCain appear to be NO BETTER than W. I'm not taking any bets on that.

The way I see it, as long as people think John McCain will be a better President than George W Bush, he has a better than Obama shot at winning. People may think Barack Obama will be a better President than George W Bush and John McCain, but the people who are not ready for a Black President will vote for John McCain if they think he is a viable alternative.

The Democrats need to attack the Republican Platform. They need to demolish it. They have to convince the country that even if McCain is not another Bush, he IS another Republican, and his election means four more years of the same.

McCain and the Republicans know this. That's why they are pinning their hopes on the MAVERICK card. They want to convince people that John McCain is not just another Republican.

The Democrats need to convince people that if they really don't want another Bush, don't settle for a half-way change.
 

keysersoze

Star
Registered
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

I guess that all depends on something commonly known as "prospective."

If Mike Tyson the boxer, in his prime of primes was expected to beat the shit out of Buster Douglas, but instead Mike Tyson ended up on his ass, himself knocked the fuck out, only his surrogates and maybe his bitch would say, "Mike Tyson just had an off night."

Then say those who believed that a Buster Douglas really won the fight and anybody who believes a nobody like Buster Douglas could really beat a heavy weight title holder are nothing but a bunch of fools are themselves what is commonly known as "delusional."

My point is, McCain's strongest and hardest punch was supposed to be foreign policy. He was expected to wipe the floor with Obama in this arena. According to a clear majority of those who watched did not see that happen. And in the throws of the debate as well as on style points, Obama was shown to be MORE PRESIDENTIAL than McCain by the majority of those undecided voters.

You are clearly in the minority on this one Garifuna; along with Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hanneity, FixedNews, the KKK, Van Allen, theblackwallstreet.com,...etc. lol.

-VG

I agree with you that McCain was expected to win on the foreign policy issues but didn't you notice that half of the debate was about the economy. Something Obama clearly is better equipped than McCain to win on.

I think this debate was a golden opportunity for Obama to outsmart McCain on the economy but I felt that he didn't directly attack and rip McCain up but rather agreed with him too much.

“I think Senator McCain’s absolutely right that we need more responsibility…”

“Senator McCain is absolutely right that the earmarks process has been abused…”

“He’s also right that oftentimes lobbyists and special interests are the ones that are introducing these…requests…”

“John mentioned the fact that business taxes on paper are high in this country, and he’s absolutely right…”

“John is right we have to make cuts…”

“Senator McCain is absolutely right that the violence has been reduced as a consequence of the extraordinary sacrifice of our troops and our military families…”

“John — you’re absolutely right that presidents have to be prudent in what they say…”

“Senator McCain is absolutely right, we cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran…”

The whole time I was sitting there going WTF are you doing man, your top notch lawyer - you know that agreeing with your opponent gives him credibility and the only want you'll win to discredit him entirely.

Bottom line: Obama was substantively right and came out ok, but everyone knows that American people prefer STYLE over substance.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

Keysersoze said:
The whole time I was sitting there going WTF are you doing man, your top notch lawyer - you know that agreeing with your opponent gives him credibility
I disagree. Being a lawyer may be one of the reasons for his agreement. Admitting an opposing argument doesn't give it credibility; if the argument is right, it has credibility on its own. Trust me, a quick admission before one moves on can be crucial in an argument as it establishes credibility in the speaker makinig the acknowledgement.

Hence, admitting to the correctness of a proposition "in short shrift" simply confirms agreement BUT, positions the speaker to move instantly to set up either; (a) a refinement of the point, (b) a larger point; or (c) a counterpoint -- all of which shows that the speaker is much more in command of the whole idea.

If one fails to quickly admit a point before attempting to deny or distinguish some aspect of the point, the speaker leaves himself open to various retorts that could cloud the denial or distinguishing point: "he can't even admit the truth"; "obviously my opponent misses the real point" etc., etc.

In law school students in Civil Procedure are admonished: if there is some truth to an allegation such that the entire allegation cannot be credibly denied; the proper response is (a) First "admit" that which is true or correct; then (b) deny or refute the remainder --=-- that is, avoid the "Negative Pregnant".


Keysersoze said:
[don't give your opponent credibility because] the only [way] you'll win [is] to discredit him entirely.
It would be good if you could completely and utterly discredit every opponent. Unfortunately, even a clock that doesn't work is correct, two times a day. Hence, LOL, its not near fatal to admit that the broken clock is right, at this very moment, but move quickly to show that its wrong 98% of the time, every day.

QueEx
 

keysersoze

Star
Registered
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

I disagree. Being a lawyer may be one of the reasons for his agreement. Admitting an opposing argument doesn't give it credibility; if the argument is right, it has credibility on its own. Trust me, a quick admission before one moves on can be crucial in an argument as it establishes credibility in the speaker makinig the acknowledgement.

Hence, admitting to the correctness of a proposition "in short shrift" simply confirms agreement BUT, positions the speaker to move instantly to set up either; (a) a refinement of the point, (b) a larger point; or (c) a counterpoint -- all of which shows that the speaker is much more in command of the whole idea.

If one fails to quickly admit a point before attempting to deny or distinguish some aspect of the point, the speaker leaves himself open to various retorts that could cloud the denial or distinguishing point: "he can't even admit the truth"; "obviously my opponent misses the real point" etc., etc.

In law school students in Civil Procedure are admonished: if there is some truth to an allegation such that the entire allegation cannot be credibly denied; the proper response is (a) First "admit" that which is true or correct; then (b) deny or refute the remainder --=-- that is, avoid the "Negative Pregnant".



It would be good if you could completely and utterly discredit every opponent. Unfortunately, even a clock that doesn't work is correct, two times a day. Hence, LOL, its not near fatal to admit that the broken clock is right, at this very moment, but move quickly to show that its wrong 98% of the time, every day.

QueEx

The distinctions you raised about credibility are right on but there is a great difference between civil procedure and debating. The civ pro example you mentioned is a for a very low threshold of a general pleading of the case. I think its safe to say that we are beyond that point where general pleadings that have any basis of a fact are acceptable.

The other problem is that what works in written arguments in briefs to a court does not work the jury which is composed of people who cannot make the nuanced distinctions your pointing out about in terms of the civ pro example.

The format of the debate itself was more of a cross examination proceeding: both parties were to be aggressive and confrontational with each other.

I just felt that Obama should not have agreed with McCain and been more agressive ... it only sets himself up for the conservatives to say, "See! Even Obama agrees with McCain!"
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5"><center>
Tide flowing for Obama
as campaign enters final weeks</font size></center>



McClatchy Newspapers
By Steven Thomma
Sunday, September 28, 2008


election day, the tide may be turning toward Barack Obama.

Several things still could swing the contest back toward John McCain, most notably the remaining debates. But as of now, forces are coming together to help Obama just as the long campaign enters the final stretch.

Among the key developments in recent days:

  • His performance in Friday night's debate helped assure some nervous voters that he is experienced enough to be commander-in-chief, a critical threshold for the young, first term senator to meet;


  • The continuing focus on the economy plays to his political advantage. The Wall Street crisis and proposed bailout guarantees intense attention by voters, and the remaining debates will overwhelmingly focus on it and domestic issues;


  • The initial burst of Republican enthusiasm over Sarah Palin may be dampened by shaky performances in TV interviews and skepticism, if not outright hostility, from some conservative columnists.
    "In the last week and a half, the landscape has moved a little in favor of Sen. Obama," said Herb Asher, a political scientist at Ohio State University.

Nationally, Obama now leads McCain.

A Gallup daily tracking poll Sunday showed Obama opening a 50-42 lead just a week after being locked in a tie. "Obama has gained steadily," Gallup said.

Pollster Scott Rasmussen Sunday reported Obama holding a 50-44 lead nationally and gaining ground in many battleground states. In Ohio, for example, he found McCain's 4 point lead a week ago shrinking to 1 point. "State polling conducted this week generally followed the national trend and confirmed a trend favoring Obama," Rasmussen said.

This doesn't mean it's over.

Obama has opened up similar leads before, after his convention in August and after his overseas trip in July. Each time, he lost that lead and even fell behind.

He showed in the Democratic primaries against Hillary Clinton that he's a weak closer. And both his relative inexperience and race still present challenges for a Democrat who arguably should have a sharp advantage in a year when the Republican president is unpopular and the country is very unhappy with the status quo.

But some fundamentals may be changing late in the campaign that could help him hold and perhaps even build his lead.

For one, the debate may have started to settle the question of whether Obama could be commander-in-chief, a critical test.

One survey of poll watchers for CBS News, for example, found a jump in the ranks of people who believed Obama was prepared to be president. More people still thought McCain prepared, by a margin of 18 percentage points — but a majority for the first time in that poll said the same of Obama.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-SC, a close McCain adviser, conceded that Obama looked good in the debate.

"Senator Obama did well. Senator Obama helped himself, according to the polls," Graham said on Fox News Sunday. He added, however, that McCain still had the edge on who was seen as more prepared. "There's an 18-point difference between who is best able to do the job. We'll take that," Graham said.

Perhaps. But Obama did gain in an area that has been perhaps his most glaring political weakness.

And attention is likely to remain on the economy right up to the election.

Polls show voters prefer Obama over McCain to handle the economy, and at least one Republican strategist thought the Wall Street mess would also help Obama.

"If John McCain loses this election a month from now ...we're going to look back at this last week and see that this is where the campaign changed," Alex Castellanos said on CNN's Late Edition program Sunday.

Finally, Palin's performances in three TV interviews are raising questions among some conservatives, who are using words like atrocious and dreadful to describe her answers.

"Palin filibusters. She repeats words, filling space with deadwood. Cut the verbiage and there's not much content there," conservative writer Kathleen Parker said this week.

Parker called Palin an "attractive, earnest, confident candidate" but also one who is "clearly out of her league."

"I thought Palin was dreadful," National Review editor Rich Lowry said after seeing her interview with CBS. "She had better be better prepared for next week or she risks damaging her political brand forevermore."

Palin still draws huge crowds among the faithful. And she has a high profile chance to regroup when she debates Joe Biden Oct. 2.

But for now, said Asher at Ohio State, "some of the glow is off the Palin nomination."

<font size="4">On the Web:


Click for more on the CBS Poll.


Click for more on the Gallup tracking poll.


Click for more on the Rasmussen poll.


Click for more on the Zogby poll.


</font size>

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/53195.html
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

K,

We can disagree, LOL. Its aiiight.

I used the CivPro as an example to be illustrative. I'm telling you that it is my experience (which is a fairly extensive) in oral argument and debate, (not the things that you mention) that the technique works and there are good reasons why it does.

Now, I'm not telling you in a oral argument to follow your opponent and admit all of his points before you start your own. I am saying, however, that if you disagree with a point that is right in part, then quickly admit the efficacy of that point and move on to distinquish, discredit or denounce the remainder. If you don't, your own argument can become infused with contradiction, i.e., the negative pregnant. The result, your argument can be lacking a reasonable and logical basis. If you can't admit that which does you no harm to admit, your credibility is surely to be questioned - even if only in the subsconsious mind of the listener.

QueEx
 

keysersoze

Star
Registered
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

lol, I do agree with your with what your saying but I don't know if Joe six pack or Sally soccer mom are going to realize this.

Thanks for the laughs.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Re: 2 quick polls give Obama edge in debate Sat Sep 27, 6:30 PM ET

lol, I do agree with your with what your saying but I don't know if Joe six pack or Sally soccer mom are going to realize this.

Thanks for the laughs.
Hey, its all fun.

One thing to remember (in my opinion), it doesn't matter whether Sally Soccer Mom or Joe Six Pack understand the nuances (why I admit and then deny, why I pause when I pause, why I change the rhythm when I change the rhythm, why I look directly into the eyes on one thing an look away in another, why I deliver it smoothly in one moment and staccato in another); and so as not to confuse either, its probably not wise to get too deep in explanation. The job of the Arguer is simply to make enough of them shake ther heads in agreement.

QueEx
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5">

General Election: McCain vs. Obama</font size><font size="4">
Sepember 21, 2008 through September 29, 2008</font size>





Gallup Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +4



Date: 09/21 - 09/23
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +3


Date:[/b] 09/24 - 09/26
Sample: 2,759 Registered Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +5


*** NEW ***

Date: 09/26 - 09/28
Sample: 2,732 Registered Voters
Obama: 50
McCain: 42
Spread: Obama +8




Rasmussen Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 47
Spread: Obama +1


Date: 09/22 - 09/24
Sample: 2,300 Likely Voters
Obama: 49
McCain: 46
Spread: Obama +3


Date: 09/24 - 09/26
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 50
McCain: 44
Spread: Obama +6



*** NEW ***

Date: 09/27 - 09/29
Sample: 3,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 51
McCain: 45
Spread: Obama +6



Hotline/FD Tracking
Date:
09/19 - 09/21
Sample: 922 Likely Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 42
Spread: Obama +5


Date: 09/22 - 09/24
Sample: 912 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +4


Date: 09/24 - 09/26
Sample: 914 Registered Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +5


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/27 - 09/29
Sample: 901 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 41
Spread: Obama +6



Battleground Tracking
Date:
09/14 - 09/21
Sample: 800 Likely Voters
McCain: 48
Obama: 47
Spread: McCain +1


Date: 09/18 - 09/24
Sample: 2,740 Registered Voters
Obama: 47
McCain: 48
Spread: McCain +1


Date: 09/21 - 09/25
Sample: 1,000 Registered Voters
Obama: 46
McCain: 48
Spread: McCain +2


*** NEW ***

Date:[/b] 09/22 - 09/28
Sample: 1,000 Likely Voters
Obama: 46
McCain: 48
Spread: McCain +2



FOX News
Date:
09/22 - 09/23
Sample: 900 Registered Voters
Obama: 45
McCain: 39
Spread: Obama +6



Marist
Date:
09/22 - 09/23
Sample:['/b] 689 Likely Voters
Obama: 49
McCain:[ 44
Spread: Obama +5



*** NEW ***

Poll: CBS News/NY Times
Date:
09/21 - 09/24
Sample: Likely Voters
Obama: 48
McCain: 43
Spread: Obama +5





<font size="4">The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>

Date: 09/22 - 09/24
Obama: 47.9
McCain: 44.4
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 3.5</font size>



<font size="4">
The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>

Date: 09/21 - 09/26
Obama: 47.9
McCain: 43.6
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 4.3</font size>




<font size="4">* * * NEW * * *

The Real Clear Politics Average
(RCP Average) of the polls above:</font size>
Date:
09/21 - 09/29
Obama: 48.0
McCain: 43.1
Spread: <font size="4">Obama + 4.9</font size>


 

VegasGuy

Star
OG Investor
You know if these numbers hold on election day, a 5 percentage point victory is considered a landslide. That would be SWEET!!

Anyway, I can't get ahead of myself. But the numbers look pretty damn good QueEx. Gotta keep working.

BTW, I saw on the news where early voting has started in OHIO for a week? Have you seen much in the printed press about this?

-VG
 
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