10 Lies Pinhead Legislators Believe About the Auto Industry

[unda_line]

10 Lies Pinhead Legislators Believe About the Auto Industry - Car News

Can these people really be so dumb?

AS TAKEN FROM CAR AND DRIVER

BY STEVEN COLE SMITH
December 2008



Perhaps the most frightening aspect of the automotive crisis is not so much the specter of impending financial doom, overcrowded bread lines, or the end of Automotive Life As We Know It. No, it’s the up-close and too-personal look at the men and women who run our country, and, by extension, at some members of the mainstream media who report stories now and ask questions later, if at all.

Public-spirited citizens that we are, let us detail for you 10 lies that pinhead legislators—and, by extension, the mainstream media—believe about the car industry.

Lie 1: American companies don’t sell fuel-efficient cars.

Truth: Really? Really? Of course they do. The Detroit Three currently offer, among others, the Ford Focus, the Chevrolet Aveo and Cobalt, and the Dodge Caliber, and for decades before that, consumers were offered everything from the Ford Falcon to the Plymouth Valiant. The U.S. automakers have always made fuel-efficient cars, and they still make them. For years, that’s all Saturn made. But the American manufacturers have always used the shotgun approach; if you throw enough pellets at the target, a few are bound to hit the bulls-eye. Early imports used the rifle method: just one bullet. But companies like Toyota have adopted the U.S. model. There are 15 Toyota models, eight of which are trucks or SUVs. And Toyota’s overall sales in November were down 33.9 percent, while Ford’s dropped 31.6 percent. Explain that, Mr. Congressman and Mrs. Congresswoman.

Lie 2: American consumers will only buy fuel-efficient vehicles.

Truth: Then why is the only Toyota to show a major gain in November the Sequoia SUV? And why do some Toyota dealers currently have to discount the Prius as much as $1500 to move them?

Lie 3: Detroit is dragging its feet in making trucks, SUVs, and large cars more fuel-efficient.

Truth: Domestic-brand trucks and SUVs get the same lousy mileage as trucks and SUVs built everywhere else. Why? Because they are trucks and SUVs! As for large cars, many European brands are able to achieve excellent overall mileage for them, in large part thanks to diesel power. With seven states, notably California and New York, subscribing to pollution standards that are stricter than federal standards, though, it did not make much sense for U.S. manufacturers to develop diesel cars when they can’t sell them in two of the largest states.

Lie 4: Detroit forced people to buy gas guzzlers.

Truth: We’ve heard some interesting dealer stories over the years, but none involved putting guns to customers’ heads to require them to buy a Ford Excursion or Chevrolet Suburban, when what they really wanted was a Ford Escort or a Chevy Cavalier. Plenty of people (such as, for instance, President-elect Obama, who used to own a Chrysler 300C) like big, powerful, safe vehicles.

Lie 5: Auto executives flying on private jets is a slap in the face to the American consumer.

Truth: Apparently the no-private-jet rule applies only to automotive executives. If you are an executive of, say, AIG or Citigroup, it’s fine. Of course, the financial companies didn’t have to travel to Washington, D.C. to grovel for their bailouts—they were simply handed out like party favors—so the opportunity to publicly flog their executives for their method of long-distance transportation never presented itself.

Lie 6: People aren’t buying domestic-brand vehicles because they are of inferior quality.

Truth: That perception lingers, but it’s no longer the case. They aren’t buying domestic-brand vehicles because people aren’t buying anything. According to major independent research, GM and Ford cars are virtually identical in quality to Japanese cars. GM has won numerous awards for its current crop of cars, including two straight North American Car of the Year awards and top accolades from Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, and, most important, Car and Driver.

Lie 7: It’s easy and cost-effective to close brands.

Truth: It costs billions to close the dealers, and you lose customers. Is that the best use for the bailout money, to pay dealers not to sell cars? How well has that worked with farm subsidies?

Lie 8: Only the American companies were so stupid to not see this coming and prepare.

Truth: Everyone is losing sales and money, but only the U.S. companies don’t have a cash cushion. One big reason: Foreign-based companies don’t have U.S.-size legacy costs, which include things like retirees’ pensions and health care, because of things such as nationalized health care.

Lie 9: The average consumer is too savvy for the market.

Truth: The day gas prices dropped, people went back to buying trucks and SUVs, and Priuses started piling up on dealers’ lots. Because gas prices won’t go back up, right? Are our memories really that short?

Lie 10: Thomas Friedman can fix everything.

Truth: The New York Times columnist is certainly entertaining, in the same way that Ross Perot as a presidential candidate was entertaining. But do you really want to take him seriously? Friedman wants the U.S. manufacturers to build nothing but hybrids, and he gives them just 36 months to make that happen. Three years to completely overhaul the vehicle lineups of three major manufacturers? Do foreign automakers have to stop building their gas-swillers, too? Thomas Friedman, Real World. Real World, Thomas Friedman. First time you’ve ever met, right?

 

[charlie dark]

Face it man!!
The whole world knows american built cars are crap and relatively expensive and that the car companies haven't made real profits in years!!!!

 

[unda_line]

Face it man!!
The whole world knows american built cars are crap and relatively expensive and that the car companies haven't made real profits in years!!!!

I didn't write it. You can believe what you want.

The person who wrote it drives and tests cars from all manufacturers. I would think he has more credibility than u or I.

From my own and my families experience who owns Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, Buick and Chevrolet they all have been very reliable. The only one that has had major problems has been the Nissan.

I assume that you only buy japanese/German right?

Did you buy a car built in Detroit that fell apart on you, left you stranded or are you the typical I believe what I hear from other people's past experience and shape my view upon what I percieve to be a problem? Sort of like a person that goes to church listens to the preacher but never reads the bible.

 

[Cruise]

I'm getting to the point logic has no place on Wall Street or in Washington DC.

Why make reasonable arguments when no one is willing to listen?

If the car companies die, without government financial support, I think my last bit of respect for Congress will die too.

 

[charlie dark]

I didn't write it. You can believe what you want.

The person who wrote it drives and tests cars from all manufacturers. I would think he has more credibility than u or I.

From my own and my families experience who owns Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, Buick and Chevrolet they all have been very reliable. The only one that has had major problems has been the Nissan.

I assume that you only buy japanese/German right?

Did you buy a car built in Detroit that fell apart on you, left you stranded or are you the typical I believe what I hear from other people's past experience and shape my view upon what I percieve to be a problem? Sort of like a person that goes to church listens to the preacher but never reads the bible.

You should take the words I use and argue with me on that rather than try and extrapolate as to what you want me to have said.
It could well be possible that the person was paid directly or otherwise to espouse the views in his article.

I never said American built cars fall apart.
I've only ever bought German cars, but when I visit the US I hire American cars and have found the driving experience not to be to the standard I'm used to.
Now while I don't profess to be a car expert I know what I like and for what I can stretch my pennies to purchase, German cars are by far the best value for my money.
It would also appear that my humble opinion concurs with a large section of the population, because the American car companies ain't making any profits and have not made profits for a long while........
For the record I don't go to church and I don't read the bible either...Does that invalidate my opinion?

 

[unda_line]

You should take the words I use and argue with me on that rather than try and extrapolate as to what you want me to have said.
It could well be possible that the person was paid directly or otherwise to espouse the views in his article.

I never said American built cars fall apart.
I've only ever bought German cars, but when I visit the US I hire American cars and have found the driving experience not to be to the standard I'm used to.
Now while I don't profess to be a car expert I know what I like and for what I can stretch my pennies to purchase, German cars are by far the best value for my money.
It would also appear that my humble opinion concurs with a large section of the population, because the American car companies ain't making any profits and have not made profits for a long while........
For the record I don't go to church and I don't read the bible either...Does that invalidate my opinion?

No it doesn't invalidate your opinion for the cars that most rental companies use in their fleets are the most mundane vehicles produced by the Domestic and foreign manufacturers and not a reflection of the best that is offered

Unfortunately most Americans are very shallow and believe what is or has been fed to them by selected media that isn't close to the honesty that is displayed by "lets say" the BBC. In the United states German cars are not the best cars to purchase for the average American because of their expense with only Volkswagon falling within the affordability scale. Those same volkswagons sold in the US also have terrible reliability (worse than American cars) and are also expensive to repair.

Now back to the Car and Driver Article...The Writer does not throw accolades at just the Domestics (Note he is not talking about Chryslers in general accept for the 300C) he just says that they are pretty much the same for reliability and mileage. Towards the back of the all of the magazines they have a section called Long Term testing of all manufacturers vehicles. For the Last 10 years I have been reading these reports I haven't read any major failures of product.

My bad for thinking you were an American. But that statement about a mindset of listening to a preacher while not reading a Bible represents a good 30% of the American Population.

 

[VegasGuy]

Pinheads huh?
This is the bed the American car manufacturers made for themselves. And the really sad part is, they had time to create a better climate for themselves years ago, but chose to ignore American buyers. Rather than build a superior impression of better and more reliable into their cars early on, when Japanese and German car makers were improving their models and catching fire, they kept the same bullshit take it or leave it attitude going.

Perception is everything!

Their business model said rather than improve on the perception that has been building for decades they build unreliable cars, they add a CD player or seats that get warm or some other overly glamorized feature, and ignore the number one issue of the day, the hardening perception that they build unreliable cars.

Meanwhile, Japanese and German models have been basking in the perception they build a better ride. And largely they do, they had to. In order to wedge into the American market and survive, they had to build it better. Case in point the Hyundai. Those cars were crap when they entered the American market. Have you driven one lately? I have and I plan to make Hyundai my next car. Comfortable, fuel efficient, reliability, price and service. Check the stats on this car. It's not what you think. How many Hyundai drivers are you seeing in your town lately? Do what I did and just ask them how they feel about their Hyundai.

So its not about this disparaging lawmakers aka elected officials who are consumers like the rest of us who believe or have the perception that American car builders create an inferior product.

This perception didn't happen overnight.

And using right wingnut language to browbeat Americans into buying GM, Ford and Chrysler didn't work for McCain Palin, and won't work here either.

-VG

 

[Cruise]

I've seen reasonable, insightful people completely lose their heads and perspective when it comes to the domestic auto industry.

It's like people have an axe to grind when it comes to the Big 3. Yet, they don't understand how much damage losing them will cause.

People don't say too much when banks steal trillions of dollars on Wall Street.

But, don't let Detroit get any money when they actually produce something the world wants.

I've owned Big 3 cars my whole life and haven't seen any reason to change because of quality or affordability.

In fact, Obama owned a Chrysler 300. So, the Big 3 can't be all bad, can they?

 

[African Herbsman]

Good post.

 

[VegasGuy]

I've seen reasonable, insightful people completely lose their heads and perspective when it comes to the domestic auto industry.

It's like people have an axe to grind when it comes to the Big 3. Yet, they don't understand how much damage losing them will cause.

People don't say too much when banks steal trillions of dollars on Wall Street.

But, don't let Detroit get any money when they actually produce something the world wants.

I've owned Big 3 cars my whole life and haven't seen any reason to change because of quality or affordability.

In fact, Obama owned a Chrysler 300. So, the Big 3 can't be all bad, can they?

Doesn't matter to me that Obama owned a Chrysler. I won't own one because I don't trust Chrysler cars. Besides, that would have more credibility if he owned an older Chrysler. Not one spanking new off the lot.

-VG

 

[QueEx]

`

Interesting article and even more interesting, the comments.

VG: I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. American automakers have known for eons that their Job 1 problem was the perception, real or imagined, that the product is shit.

Historically, the image was well earned. In days past, the Detroit models had all kinds and multiple failures in the first 2 to 3 years (after 3 years, most weren't safe/fit to drive).

In 1973/74 when the entire U.S., was caught with its pants down (Arab Oil Embargo), the Japanese pull a coup d' etat with this:

. . . the 73' Toyota Celica. The car was tight as a baby's ass; reliable as taxes due each year; and got 2 zillion miles to the gallon compared to U.S. cars which got 2 blocks to the gallon. The Celica and the many others that followed combined with Detroit's slowness (or total lack) of response (the poor excuse for automobiles known as the "K Cars") for years has brought us to this point.

"K Car" - 1984 Plymouth Reliant​

NOTE: the Celica is a 1973 vs. the Plymouth is a 1984. Do I need to say more ? ? ?

I have to say, however, Detroit was on the right road with the K cars. The reduced size was necessary to reduce consumption. That was "the start" of dealing with a problem (consumption) that has returned to bite us in the ass, once again. Somewhere, we dropped the ball with consumption, and quality.

I don't think there is any serious question that quality among American models has improved, drastically. But, I don't think there is any serious question either that U.S. automakers don't know shit about "Style". The Japanese, Koreans, Germans have beat the shit out of the U.S. by building cars that are not only well built, but are attractive to the American eye.

Hell, casket designers are putting together better looking shit than U.S. automakers:

In my opinion, the Big 3 need people who can design cars that Americans and the World -- can envision. Unfortunately, Quality - without Style = full showrooms and eventual collapse.

QueEx

 

[Zmaniac723]

Lie 2: American consumers will only buy fuel-efficient vehicles.

Truth: Then why is the only Toyota to show a major gain in November the Sequoia SUV? And why do some Toyota dealers currently have to discount the Prius as much as $1500 to move them?

The Big 3 have been doing the employee discount drive for a while now. I remember them saying "hurry this will end by the the end of the month!" and then it would be extended for another 3 months.

Lie 6: People aren’t buying domestic-brand vehicles because they are of inferior quality.

Truth: That perception lingers, but it’s no longer the case. They aren’t buying domestic-brand vehicles because people aren’t buying anything. According to major independent research, GM and Ford cars are virtually identical in quality to Japanese cars. GM has won numerous awards for its current crop of cars, including two straight North American Car of the Year awards and top accolades from Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, and, most important, Car and Driver.

My grandmother bought a new Pontiac in the 70s. She went on a trip to the TN mountains in it. There was a consistent grinding sound when she got there. Went to the shop and it turns out her rear axle was for another car model and was stressed to the point of cracking in half. She never bought American again.

My mom bought a new Ford in the early 90s. It would constantly break down and yes my mom would be stranded on the side of the road. We kept bringing it to the dealership to get it fixed. They said we would be good to go but it break down a month and a half later. We decided to bring it to a regular mechanic. He checked out the entire car for us, looked up the engine number, VIN, etc. Turns out the car was in an accident 2 years ago and the engine actually had about 87,000 miles on it (not the 23,000 we had put on it). We returned it to the dealership with the information in hand and threatened to sue. A check was hand-delivered a week later.

We never bought American again.

 

[QueEx]

My mom bought a new Ford in the early 90s. It would constantly break down and yes my mom would be stranded on the side of the road. We kept bringing it to the dealership to get it fixed. They said we would be good to go but it break down a month and a half later. We decided to bring it to a regular mechanic. He checked out the entire car for us, looked up the engine number, VIN, etc. Turns out the car was in an accident 2 years ago and the engine actually had about 87,000 miles on it (not the 23,000 we had put on it). We returned it to the dealership with the information in hand and threatened to sue. A check was hand-delivered a week later.

We never bought American again.

Are you sure that was a "Manufacturers" problem and not a "Dealership" problem ??? Sounds more like someone sold your mom what was purported to be a "New Car" when in fact it had been wrecked. I believe that cars are still considered new up to around 7,500 miles or so, therefore, could it have been that a dealership sold a car that had what qualifies as "new car" mileage -- but had been wrecked ???

QueEx

 

[unda_line]

I have been arguing with Peeps for a few weeks about this. But nobody would listen.

Japan car lobby sees tough 2009

TOKYO (Reuters) - The global auto market will remain depressed next year as U.S. economic woes grip the rest of the world, with Japanese car sales likely to be the worst in at least three decades, the head of an industry lobby said on Thursday.

Desperate U.S. automakers are seeking billions in government aid, shutting down plants and reportedly reconsidering mergers to ride out a collapse in demand brought on by the credit crunch and global financial crisis.

In the latest sign of gloom for Japanese automakers, Honda Motor Co (7267.T) forecast on Wednesday an operating loss of 190 billion yen ($2.2 billion) for the six-month period to March, sending its shares down 3.5 percent on Thursday. It was the third profit warning in five months for Japan's No.2 automaker, which like its local rivals, is suffering due to the strong yen .

"It's very difficult to gauge where the bottom is (for the global car market)," Satoshi Aoki, chairman of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA) told a news conference.

"What seems clear is that a recovery isn't around the corner, and I have no idea when we'll see one," Aoki, also chairman of Honda, said.

Announcing its outlook for 2009, the industry group said it expects Japanese demand for new cars, trucks and buses, including 660cc minivehicles, to fall 4.9 percent to 4.86 million vehicles, predicting the first drop below 5 million in 31 years.

That would mark the fifth straight year of decline in Japan, the world's third-largest car market after the United States and China.



U.S. WOES

Aoki also predicted the U.S. light vehicle market to fall around 6 percent to 12.5 million units next year, from an estimated 13.3 million in 2008 and down 23 percent from 2007's 16.2 million.

That would be the lowest level of annual U.S. sales since 1991.

Weak consumer sentiment and tight credit have combined to send U.S. sales down 17 percent so far this year, forcing automakers to scale back production and rein in inventory.

Chrysler LLC is set to idle factories in the United States, Canada and Mexico for one month starting Friday, underscoring the urgency of pleas by Chrysler and General Motors Corp (GM.N) for an immediate bailout they say is their best hope for near-term survival.

Desperate to avoid bankruptcy, Chrysler owner Cerberus Capital Management CBS.UL took the initiative to restart talks for a possible merger with GM, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing people familiar with the discussions.

GM and Chrysler could not be reached immediately for comment, but GM CEO Rick Wagoner told the U.S. Senate Banking Committee earlier this month that he would consider a merger with Chrysler if that were the condition for receiving federal funding.

The two U.S. automakers announced steps to shore up their dwindling cash on Wednesday as they awaited word on whether the White House would grant them billions of dollars in emergency loans.

HELP NEEDED, UP TO A POINT

JAMA's Aoki said the health of the U.S. auto industry was crucial for the health of its entire economy, and by extension the world's, but warned against excessive aid that would flout fair competition.

"If the (government) aid is too discriminatory and favors only the Detroit Three, this would not be desirable under the notion of free trade," he said.

Aoki also limited his jawboning on the dollar, stopping short of directly calling for intervention to weaken the yen, but warning that volatile swings would cripple Japanese industry.

"Sudden forex moves, especially big ones, will not only hurt short-term corporate profitability but also make it very difficult for companies to make medium to long-term plans," he said.

The dollar stayed in sight of a 13-1/2-year low versus the yen, fetching around 87.75 yen on Thursday.

That quote above in red doesn't acknowledge the fact that all the foreign manufacturers have been given billions by southern states to locate their factories there.

I am not defending Detroit because there are a lot of issues there below the surface. So just think of Detroit as having the weakest immune system. Soon all of those Auto companies are gonna be real sick.

 

[Zmaniac723]

The car was in an accident and fixed up to look like a new car. The engine had 80,000 miles on it, not the 23,000 it said on the odometer. It doesn't matter if it was a dealership or a manufacturer's problem because the dealership represents the company. They are the employees who bring the product to the consumer.

 

[QueEx]

The car was in an accident and fixed up to look like a new car. The engine had 80,000 miles on it, not the 23,000 it said on the odometer. It doesn't matter if it was a dealership or a manufacturer's problem because the dealership represents the company. They are the employees who bring the product to the consumer.

Well, if you feel that way; but, it won't change the truth.

I'm not defending the auto industry, but the truth of the matter is that the fraud you complained of happened <u>after</u> the automobile left the hands of the manufacturer. BTW, how do you know that the car your mom purchased had not be traded to the dealership by someone and the dealership may or may not have known of its history or been a part of the fraud ???

Generally speaking, dealerships do not represent the manufacturers and the employees of Zmaniac Chrysler & Dodge are not the employees of Chrysler Motor Company. Dealerships have the contractual right to sell the manufacturers' products but, in most cases, a dealer is not responsible for manufacturer's fraud not involving a defect and manufacturers are not responsible for dealership fraud unless either of them participated in the other's fraud.

QueEx

 

[COINTELPRO]

The foreign car makers crushed their EV along with GM, the media seems to focus on GM crushing their cars.

Bill Clinton started a government initiative to develop hybrids with American car companies. The foreign car was worried the US companies were going to release hybrids and they built their own. They wasn't market leaders when it came to hybrids, they were being reactive.

I thought Bill Ford was taking shots at the government on TV indirectly when he mentioned the taxes foreign imposed on fuel. Ford is making money overseas on their small cars because their is demand. They have to split up their production capacity in the U.S. and guess where the price of oil is going. In the foreign countries, the price is high all the time. The Europeans use 1/5 the gasoline because of the taxes they impose on their cars.

Price down-SUV this month, Price up-small cars and hybrids, wait SUV again....

 

[Dannyblueyes]

Many of the people who are in a position to buy their first new car got started driving wrecks like my 1987 Gutlass Ciera. It cost $3,000 out the lot and at least $1,000 a year to keep repaired (including tow truck expenses) even though it had less than 100,000 miles, and got driven less than 500 miles a month. In 2 years I replaced the catalytic, radiator, water pump, alternator, and had to fix the brakes 3 times.

My next vehicle was a 1992 Mazda b2200. It cost $1,500 and had over 300,000 miles on it. Drove it 2,000 miles a month for nearly 2 years and in that time the only thing I every replaced was a burnt out headlight and the windshield wipers.

So once I'm ready to buy a new car where's my incentive to go American?

 

[QueEx]

So once I'm ready to buy a new car where's my incentive to go American?

The question might be: how does a "similar" 1987 American made car compare, quality-wise, with a "similar" 2008 American model; and how does a similar 2008 American model compare, quality-wise, with a similar 2008 Japanese model

<font size="4">? ? ?</font size>

QueEx

 

[Dannyblueyes]

The question might be: how does a "similar" 1987 American made car compare, quality-wise, with a "similar" 2008 American model; and how does a similar 2008 American model compare, quality-wise, with a similar 2008 Japanese model

<font size="4">? ? ?</font size>

QueEx

I used to sell for a Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep dealer and can personally guarantee that at least one of the big three American manufacturers are pure shit. Old models (with the exception of a well kept Jeep Wrangler) are worth almost nothing for trade it. Every owner I know has paid almost as much to fix their relatively brand new cars that I paid to fix my shitty '87.

Besides, why would I risk $20,000+ dollars on the promise that things have got better over the years? That's a little like a 35 year old going back to the ex-girlfriend that cheated on him in high school.

 

[QueEx]

Did you just ignore the question ???

QueEx

 

[nittie]

Re: I have been arguing with Peeps for a few weeks about this. But nobody would liste

I think people will start listening

Japan stumps up more cash, Belgian govt falls

LONDON (Reuters) – Japan approved extra funding and Germany pledged new measures on Saturday to confront a financial crisis that has toppled banks, wrecked world growth and now played a part in the demise of Belgium's government.

Tokyo has joined governments worldwide in pledging hundreds of billions of dollars of fiscal stimulus to lessen the impact of the crisis on their economies, many of which, Japan's included, are already in recession.

Its extra 4.79 trillion yen ($54 billion) budget, approved by cabinet on Saturday, will help finance two already-unveiled spending packages totaling 10 trillion yen.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said Germany would take "a further step" in January to boost its economy, having previously limited herself to saying government leaders would meet in the new year to review the situation.

 

[Dannyblueyes]

Did you just ignore the question ???

QueEx

Not at all. You asked how a similar 1987 American car compares to a 2008. They were shit then, and from what I've seen they're shit now.

How do the 2008 American models compare with the 2008 Japanese? Well, the Japanese can't possibly do any worse.

 

[Detroit's finest]

These Arm Chair Animals With Piss Poor Feelings. They Don't Know Shit. They Think They Know More Than Someone Who Lives In Michigan Or Works For Car And Driver.

 

[unda_line]

I think that Chrysler is left out of the debate when it comes to quality issues. I had a 93 dodge Intrepid that was a great handling car with a great engine to boot. When the car was working it was a nice car to drive but its transmission failed and had to be replaced twice before it even hit 70,000 miles and the drivers seat snapped.....Yes the welds just gave out.

My current 2000 Chevy Impala has been a great car with no major problems with 120,000 miles on it and my grandfathers Buicks have all been very reliable and they all had the 3.8 with the 4 speed auto which is known to be a very reliable combination.

What it comes down to is that people buy cars based upon a lot of things. I prefer a car that is large gets decent mileage and is comfortable on those long distance trips I tend to take. I also like a little style and grunt at the stop lights (Not waiting for it to spool up to move). Just by using those factors and my price range that would limit me to a Camry, Accord, Charger, 300, G8 with a V6 or more

Camry XLE $28,695... Nice Car....will I find it in a parking lot
Honda EX V6 $26,005... Hondas feel like skate boards to me
Charger SE $25,285...Mean Looks...Mercedes parts
Pontiac G8 GT $27495...6.0 liter V8...nice looks

In order I would go for the G8, Honda, Camry then Charger.

 

[QueEx]

Not at all. You asked how a similar 1987 American car compares to a 2008. They were shit then, and from what I've seen they're shit now.

How do the 2008 American models compare with the 2008 Japanese? Well, the Japanese can't possibly do any worse.

And how many of those 08's (Japanese, American or other) do you own or have driven for a substantial period of time ? ? ?

QueEx

 

[Dannyblueyes]

And how many of those 08's (Japanese, American or other) do you own or have driven for a substantial period of time ? ? ?

QueEx

None and that's the point. Why would I take a risk on an American 2008 when the other American cars I've dealt have been so lousy?

 

[QueEx]

<font size="5"><center>
Toyota heads for first loss since 1938</font size></center>


Justin McCurry in Tokyo
Guardian.co.uk,
Monday 22 December 2008


Toyota said today it was on course to record its first operating loss in more than 70 years after a surging yen and dramatic fall in exports battered profits at Japan's biggest carmaker.

The firm said it expected losses through to the end of next March to total ¥150bn (£1.1bn), a massive decline on its previous forecast of a ¥600bn operating profit.

Toyota, once a byword for opulence in corporate Japan, is now expected to barely break even, slashing its net income forecast by 90% to ¥50bn.

The announcement came as the government released figures showing the biggest drop in exports since records began, and the economics minister appeared to call for divine intervention to save the world's second biggest economy from collapse.

Toyota and other Japanese carmakers have been forced to cut production, slash earnings forecasts and lay off temporary and part-time workers as they struggle to contain the fallout from the global recession.

Today's grim figures mark the first time Toyota has suffered an operating loss since 1938. Earlier this year it was on its way to overtaking General Motors to become the biggest carmaker in the world in terms of sales.

"The change that has hit the world economy is of a critical scale that comes once in a hundred years," Toyota's president, Katsuaki Watanabe, told reporters at the firm's headquarters in Nagoya.

Toyota makes most of its profits in the US, where exports fell 34% in November. Exports to Europe fell at a similar rate last month. Watanabe said the slump in overseas sales last month had been "far faster, wider and deeper than expected".

The recent surge in the yen against the dollar and euro has only added to Toyota's woes, eating into profits when they are repatriated from its two key markets. Every ¥1 gain against the dollar represents a ¥40bn plunge in profits at Toyota.

While the company made its initial forecast based on an exchange rate of around ¥100 to the dollar, the US currency appears trapped around the ¥90 level, a 13-year low.

The situation is not much better at home, however, with warnings that domestic sales of new vehicles will probably fall below 5 million for the first time in 30 years.

Toyota, the maker of the Camry sedan and Prius hybrid cars, expects to sell 8.96m vehicles worldwide this year, down 4% from last year. Watanabe broke with convention and did not give global sales or production targets for 2009.

Koichi Ogawa, an analyst at Daiwa SB Investments, described the figures as "very, very, very bad".

"There is a chance that they could fall into the red in the next business year as well. This is also not just a problem for Toyota. What is good for Toyota is good for the Japanese economy."

The finance ministry, meanwhile, said Japan's exports fell at a record pace last month, staying in the red for a second month for the first time since 1980.

Global exports slumped 26.7%, taking the country's trade deficit to ¥223bn, while those to the US fell almost 34%. Both falls were the sharpest since current trade calculations were introduced in 1980.

Exports to Asia, which had held up in the early days of the financial crisis, have now started to follow those to the US and Europe, falling 26.7% in November.

Exports to China, where demand for semiconductors and consumer electronics helped lift Japan out of its last recession, dropped 24.5%, their biggest fall since 1995.

The economics minister, Kaoru Yosano, said he found it "difficult to imagine" that Japan would see an improvement in the near future given the parlous state of the global economy.

When asked whether there was any end in sight to the gloom, he replied: "God only knows."

"Now is not the time to talk about a bright tomorrow. For now we are focused on how to present a bleak tomorrow."

The government's monthly economic report was equally pessimistic, warning that the rapid fall in production threatened to usher in an era of high unemployment.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/dec/22/japan-toyota

 

[jeanzy5342]

I have owned Honda's and Toyota's my whole. My main reason for purchasing those vehicle's was the reputation or rumor, how ever one perceives it to be, was that they are a good quality automobile with little to no maintenance required. I bought two American cars in 2004. A Ford Escape and a Ford Focus, I got great incentives for being in the military. Unfortunately BOTH vehicles are POS's!!! The gaskets blew in the Focus and the Escape needs a new engine, I've put less than 50K miles on it! This BULLJIVE NEVER happened with my other cars, just minor repairs. Because of all of this I am now VERY BIAS, when it comes to American cars. I'll never buy American again, or at least until they get their act together.
As far as the bail out goes, I'm torn because I don't want to see any Brothas out of work due to decisions made above their pay grade ( the projection is 3 million unemployed if the BIG-3 fail), Yet I feel that my TAX dollars shouldn't go to help companies that I feel have put out an inferior product for years.