Wrestling Fans be honest

[Deltronz]

I hear ya but any match with hhh in it decreases the value to me, because i think he's overrated and a has been

Since his quad injury I agree...BUT that triple threat match is perfect. As overrated (and he is generally getting worse as a worker) as HHH is, he generally pulls it all together when he's in the ring with his good friend HBK. Benoit in the mix only seemed to make both HHH & HBK up their game. Seriously that WMXX main event is about as perfect a Triple Threat match as you could ask for. It was non-stop action, no blown spots, the crowd was volcanic for the entire duration, it told a clear story in the ring, great build up, and had an ending EVERYONE wanted. You really can't ask for a better way to end a Wrestlemania.

 

[dirtyd]

Benoit had that effect on people because when he was in the ring it looked real

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Benoit had that effect on people because when he was in the ring it looked real

He was old school like that. Too bad his story ended like it did.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

The length of the match does not make one match better than another (unless we're talking about a squash match, which in that case it's different). Also, calling it in the ring vs having the match pre-rehearsed doesn't make any match superior to another when both matches were worked excellently.

I read Santana's book and he said that Savage like to over rehearse. That being said, his matches that are called in the ring were better.

HBK vs. 'Taker = Greatest WM match EVER...Steamboat/Savage= a close second.

If you haven't seen them, check out Angle/Michaels and Angle/Benoit. (Benoit got a standing ovation after that match.) These two are my candidates for best Werstlemania matches.

 

[Deltronz]

I read Santana's book and he said that Savage like to over rehearse. That being said, his matches that are called in the ring were better.

Santana also said in an interview that the British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, and Bret Hart (specifically) weren't that great a wrestlers. Point is, his opinion doesn't really mean much in reference to other wrestlers when there is so much to the contrary (no disrespect to Santana, as he is one of the greats as well).

The fact of the matter is most wrestlers give Savage props for how carefully he planned out his matches. This even includes Hulk "THE EGO" Hogan (and this is even after Savage publicly disrespected him on many occasions). If it wasn't for Savage's (over)rehearsing you wouldn't have had the great matches that are credited to him. Most people give Flair tons of credit as a great wrestler despite the fact that Flair had one of the more obvious in ring formulas that he almost never strayed away from in his prime. Does the predictability of any given Flair match (in his prime) take away from the ***** matches he has under his belt? Calling the match before hand, or calling it in the ring doesn't matter as long as the result is a quality match. Only the wrestlers themselves feel the difference, but the result (when done right) is always the same. In fact, I can think of more lousy matches that were CLEARLY called in the ring than those that were called beforehand. I'm sure you can too.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Santana also said in an interview that the British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, and Bret Hart (specifically) weren't that great a wrestlers. Point is, his opinion doesn't really mean much in reference to other wrestlers when there is so much to the contrary (no disrespect to Santana, as he is one of the greats as well).

Santana is a "bench-mark" wrestler in that he is such a good hand in the ring you work with him to get better and for him to assess your talent. He is more the old-school type that likes to call the match in the ring and that was something he was trying to break Savage out of.

The fact of the matter is most wrestlers give Savage props for how carefully he planned out his matches. This even includes Hulk "THE EGO" Hogan (and this is even after Savage publicly disrespected him on many occasions). If it wasn't for Savage's (over)rehearsing you wouldn't have had the great matches that are credited to him.

Hogan mentioned that in "Self-Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior" DVD which is why he gets credit for that match he had with the Warrior being better than it had any right to be.

Most people give Flair tons of credit as a great wrestler despite the fact that Flair had one of the more obvious in ring formulas that he almost never strayed away from in his prime. Does the predictability of any given Flair match (in his prime) take away from the ***** matches he has under his belt? Calling the match before hand, or calling it in the ring doesn't matter as long as the result is a quality match. Only the wrestlers themselves feel the difference, but the result (when done right) is always the same. In fact, I can think of more lousy matches that were CLEARLY called in the ring than those that were called beforehand. I'm sure you can too.

Definitely. The problem with Flair was that he never adapted to the 'WWE style". He was used to working matches that were 30+ minutes long. The WWE only gave that much time to upper mid-carders and main-eventers. Even he admitted that he stopped trying. Bret Hart openly calls him the 'King of non-psychology". Not to mention that the WWE wanted you to work in the crowd popping spots. Flair used to beat people regularly in the NWA with out the figure four and chopping them to death. Now it's like he HAS to do that in the WWE.

Flair's best matches were with people that he trusted and knew could call a match in the ring. (Steamboat, Windham) He didn't get along with Bret Hart because Bret wanted to call the match and Flair didn't want him to.

 

[Deltronz]

Definitely. The problem with Flair was that he never adapted to the 'WWE style". He was used to working matches that were 30+ minutes long. The WWE only gave that much time to upper mid-carders and main-eventers. Even he admitted that he stopped trying. Bret Hart openly calls him the 'King of non-psychology". Not to mention that the WWE wanted you to work in the crowd popping spots. Flair used to beat people regularly in the NWA with out the figure four and chopping them to death. Now it's like he HAS to do that in the WWE.

Flair's best matches were with people that he trusted and knew could call a match in the ring. (Steamboat, Windham) He didn't get along with Bret Hart because Bret wanted to call the match and Flair didn't want him to.

You might be missing my point about Flair a little bit. I was saying IN HIS PRIME (not his early NWA days, but his later NWA days after he got his style down) he had one of the more obvious formulas that he rarely strayed from. This is BEFORE he ever got into the WWE in the 90s.

Santana is a "bench-mark" wrestler in that he is such a good hand in the ring you work with him to get better and for him to assess your talent. He is more the old-school type that likes to call the match in the ring and that was something he was trying to break Savage out of.

I forgot to add, Santana also criticized Flair's ringwork too. He said he didn't like Flair's "overusage" of chops. His words. Just saying.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

You might be missing my point about Flair a little bit. I was saying IN HIS PRIME (not his early NWA days, but his later NWA days after he got his style down) he had one of the more obvious formulas that he rarely strayed from. This is BEFORE he ever got into the WWE in the 90s.

I can agree with that.

I forgot to add, Santana also criticized Flair's ringwork too. He said he didn't like Flair's "overusage" of chops. His words. Just saying.

He also kisses Hogan's ass a lot in the book, too.

 

[dirtyd]

I think half the industry has criticized flair's ring work

 

[Deltronz]

He also kisses Hogan's ass a lot in the book, too.

He also praised Ventura for always calling him "Chico Santana" during his commentary days, as he felt it helped get him over. I guess I can't really argue with that.

 

[dirtyd]

On another topic how did ya'll think mayweather did at mania 24, i thought he had the best celebrity apperance by far. I would put the celebs at mania 3 a close second.

Tyson had a great build up but his apperance was kinda average, and pete rose was always funny.

 

[Deltronz]

On another topic how did ya'll think mayweather did at mania 24, i thought he had the best celebrity apperance by far. I would put the celebs at mania 3 a close second.

Tyson had a great build up but his apperance was kinda average, and pete rose was always funny.

Taylor, Tyson, Mayweather, and then everyone else.

Taylor actually had a really good match, and they did a GREAT job building the angle as a potential shoot. Miracles do happen I suppose.

No single celeb got more attention than Tyson did, so I have to add Tyson next. He didn't wrestle, but the build up (not just his shoving match with Austin and his DX alignment, but all of his DX appearances that followed as well) was tremendous. Furthermore, during the match he remained intriguing without overshadowing a great match between Austin/HBK. Sure you could say you were disappointed because he didn't wrestle, but as a non-wrestler I think there was no better celeb appearances (Taylor barely inches out Tyson, in my opinion). Then I would put Mayweather there because the WWE were smart in making it vague as to what kind of match at Wrestlemania there would be. The match itself could've EASILY have been horrible, but it ended up being a pretty good and fun brawl. Wrestling geeks didn't seem to get it (many wrestling boards were saying, "Who is Mayweather?" as bizarre as that sounds), but everyone else did

 

[9791Style]

this is when writers could write and wrestlers could wrestle.....

5 stars!

I gotta agree. Now all matches are basically, if the good guy (face) wins, then the bad guy beats the shit of him afterward, fucking up the victory. Kills a character and is TOO predictable. That shit goes for Stone Cold, Hogan, and HHH. Those fuckers NEVER want to lose.

 

[dirtyd]

Taylor, Tyson, Mayweather, and then everyone else.

Taylor actually had a really good match, and they did a GREAT job building the angle as a potential shoot. Miracles do happen I suppose.

No single celeb got more attention than Tyson did, so I have to add Tyson next. He didn't wrestle, but the build up (not just his shoving match with Austin and his DX alignment, but all of his DX appearances that followed as well) was tremendous. Furthermore, during the match he remained intriguing without overshadowing a great match between Austin/HBK. Sure you could say you were disappointed because he didn't wrestle, but as a non-wrestler I think there was no better celeb appearances (Taylor barely inches out Tyson, in my opinion). Then I would put Mayweather there because the WWE were smart in making it vague as to what kind of match at Wrestlemania there would be. The match itself could've EASILY have been horrible, but it ended up being a pretty good and fun brawl. Wrestling geeks didn't seem to get it (many wrestling boards were saying, "Who is Mayweather?" as bizarre as that sounds), but everyone else did

C/S It was fun to watch and it had a big feel to it. The wrestling geeks that hated it, are the same ones who believe all ROH matches are 5 stars

 

[dirtyd]

I gotta agree. Now all matches are basically, if the good guy (face) wins, then the bad guy beats the shit of him afterward, fucking up the victory. Kills a character and is TOO predictable. That shit goes for Stone Cold, Hogan, and HHH. Those fuckers NEVER want to lose.

Stone Cold didn't mind losing, it just had to have a meaning behind it (i.e Lesnar)

But hogan and hhh that is a whole different animal. Hogan i can somewhat understand, but hhh is not in hogan,austin,taker,hbk, hell not even in jericho's league.

 

[SABU]

Stone Cold didn't mind losing, it just had to have a meaning behind it (i.e Lesnar)

But hogan and hhh that is a whole different animal. Hogan i can somewhat understand, but hhh is not in hogan,austin,taker,hbk, hell not even in jericho's league.

Co-Sign about HHH. I remember the crappy matches he had in 2003
and he just killed the pushes of Booker T and Goldberg. Now with Booker , Wrestlemaina 19 was the a good time for Booker to win the strap especially with that "you people aren't good enough to be champion" angle. And Summer Slam 03 now HHH had a bad groin injury and what better way to take the strap off of him was in the elimination chamber. Goldberg in that match was killin everybody and looked good and i think took out HHH in the match. But then that bullshit interference and HHH walks out with the Gold and folks were PISSED. By the time Goldberg won the belt the fans were like shit why did you have to wait a month.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

You might be missing my point about Flair a little bit. I was saying IN HIS PRIME (not his early NWA days, but his later NWA days after he got his style down) he had one of the more obvious formulas that he rarely strayed from. This is BEFORE he ever got into the WWE in the 90s.



I forgot to add, Santana also criticized Flair's ringwork too. He said he didn't like Flair's "overusage" of chops. His words. Just saying.

I can agree with that to a large extent. Once he hit his stride, Flair had gained his own confidence and the confidence of the NWA. He worked around the world, in 60 min broadways, often with guys who couldn't work that long, so he had to have a set way to help the other guy look good.
When a Dory Funk Jr. or a Harley Race say something about Flair's work, I listen, but wrestlers who have never been on his level, with his level of responsibity to so many outside factors, carry very little weight. That includes Tito, Bret Hart, and Bruno Sammartino.

Taylor, Tyson, Mayweather, and then everyone else.

Taylor actually had a really good match, and they did a GREAT job building the angle as a potential shoot. Miracles do happen I suppose.

No single celeb got more attention than Tyson did, so I have to add Tyson next. He didn't wrestle, but the build up (not just his shoving match with Austin and his DX alignment, but all of his DX appearances that followed as well) was tremendous. Furthermore, during the match he remained intriguing without overshadowing a great match between Austin/HBK. Sure you could say you were disappointed because he didn't wrestle, but as a non-wrestler I think there was no better celeb appearances (Taylor barely inches out Tyson, in my opinion). Then I would put Mayweather there because the WWE were smart in making it vague as to what kind of match at Wrestlemania there would be. The match itself could've EASILY have been horrible, but it ended up being a pretty good and fun brawl. Wrestling geeks didn't seem to get it (many wrestling boards were saying, "Who is Mayweather?" as bizarre as that sounds), but everyone else did

I think Mayweather edges Tyson, but not by much. Taylor is the best just by letting Bam Bam Bigelow carry him to a very good match.
While Tyson did a great job and his "joining" DX was excellent television, I think Mayweather and Show had a more realistic, shoot-style feel, much like LT-Bigelow. Plus Floyd should get credit for going out on the media tours selling the show, unlike Trump, Mickey Rourke, and most other celebs. The Tyson appearance loses out to me because after the show, there were no real repurcussions.

 

[dirtyd]

I can agree with that to a large extent. Once he hit his stride, Flair had gained his own confidence and the confidence of the NWA. He worked around the world, in 60 min broadways, often with guys who couldn't work that long, so he had to have a set way to help the other guy look good.
When a Dory Funk Jr. or a Harley Race say something about Flair's work, I listen, but wrestlers who have never been on his level, with his level of responsibity to so many outside factors, carry very little weight. That includes Tito, Bret Hart, and Bruno Sammartino.



I think Mayweather edges Tyson, but not by much. Taylor is the best just by letting Bam Bam Bigelow carry him to a very good match.
While Tyson did a great job and his "joining" DX was excellent television, I think Mayweather and Show had a more realistic, shoot-style feel, much like LT-Bigelow. Plus Floyd should get credit for going out on the media tours selling the show, unlike Trump, Mickey Rourke, and most other celebs. The Tyson appearance loses out to me because after the show, there were no real repurcussions.

The problem with there being no repurcussions was that michaels had to leave. If he had stayed then they could've followed up on the tyson angle. Then again if michaels was healthy then austin wouldn't have won.

 

[dirtyd]

Co-Sign about HHH. I remember the crappy matches he had in 2003
and he just killed the pushes of Booker T and Goldberg. Now with Booker , Wrestlemaina 19 was the a good time for Booker to win the strap especially with that "you people aren't good enough to be champion" angle. And Summer Slam 03 now HHH had a bad groin injury and what better way to take the strap off of him was in the elimination chamber. Goldberg in that match was killin everybody and looked good and i think took out HHH in the match. But then that bullshit interference and HHH walks out with the Gold and folks were PISSED. By the time Goldberg won the belt the fans were like shit why did you have to wait a month.

If you want to see how people feel about hhh, just look at no way out 08 & 09. He won both times and the crowd was dead silent for both. I love ppv crowds because you get to see how the fans really feel about a wrestler. At backlash when hhh got punted by orton the fan's started singing the good bye song

 

[Upgrade Dave]

The problem with there being no repurcussions was that michaels had to leave. If he had stayed then they could've followed up on the tyson angle. Then again if michaels was healthy then austin wouldn't have won.

Yeah, I know. Michaels was all fucked up and the Austin Express was off to the races, with Tyson never to be seen again.

Conversely, after the Mayweather appearance, The Big Show has gotten one of the more consistent pushes of his career, including wins over Jericho and UT.

 

[roster]

In truth, you have to understand that without this match there WOULDN'T BE Taker/HBK at WM25. As it stands, Savage/Steamboat is a 5 star affair when you consider ALL FACTORS of the match. HBK/Taker is a 4 1/2 star affair (possibly 4 3/4 stars) since that match has at least one very noticeable blown spot. Plus, as tight as the psychology for HBK/Taker was, Steamboat/Savage had even BETTER psychology.

It's always the younger generation not appreciating the older matches that set the landscape.

What's next? Citizen Kane is overrated and not better than the new Star Trek movie?

Oh wait

This is true. How many matches BEFORE this match are up to par with it?

 

[SABU]

If you want to see how people feel about hhh, just look at no way out 08 & 09. He won both times and the crowd was dead silent for both. I love ppv crowds because you get to see how the fans really feel about a wrestler. At backlash when hhh got punted by orton the fan's started singing the good bye song

Even when he won at no mercy in 07 crowd was dead lol

 

[Deltronz]

C/S It was fun to watch and it had a big feel to it. The wrestling geeks that hated it, are the same ones who believe all ROH matches are 5 stars

Indeed, although Ring of Honor puts on more consistently good matches than WWE (THESE days). The only thing WWE has over it consistently is its long history (familiarity with many wrestlers, lineage, etc.) and budget (duh?) which means even a turd of a match in the WWE will have a big match feel.

In truth, nowadays (although Smackdown is getting damn good again) I'm much more interested in Chikara and Ring of Honor in terms of current American wrestling cards on average.

 

[dirtyd]

Even when he won at no mercy in 07 crowd was dead lol

It's funny how the moment hhh left smackdown it became the #1 show, because all the midcarders get to shine. Sadly orton's momentum has all but vanished the moment hhh became part of the storyline

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

On another topic how did ya'll think mayweather did at mania 24, i thought he had the best celebrity apperance by far. I would put the celebs at mania 3 a close second.

Tyson had a great build up but his apperance was kinda average, and pete rose was always funny.

Taylor had the better match, but Pretty Boy did a really good job of selling Big Show ass-kicking.

As far as the reigns of HHH, the crowds didn't like him because they KNEW he was going o win. The face usually won the blow off matches, but on the big stages, HHH reigned supreme.

-The Kane "Katie Vick" angle: Kane won the casket match the day after the PPV on RAW, but no one cared because he lost at the PPV
-The Booker T "you people" angle. (He also squashed in in a match at a PPV when he came back from his many quad tears.)
-The atrocious angle he did with Scott Steiner that got them booed out of the building. (The following match with Angle/Benoit got a standing ovation)

The rumor with that is that HHH makes you look bad on the big stage and then runs to McMahon and says, "See he can't handle the pressure of the big match. I should keep the title."

 

[c_commander]

You might be missing my point about Flair a little bit. I was saying IN HIS PRIME (not his early NWA days, but his later NWA days after he got his style down) he had one of the more obvious formulas that he rarely strayed from. This is BEFORE he ever got into the WWE in the 90s.



I forgot to add, Santana also criticized Flair's ringwork too. He said he didn't like Flair's "overusage" of chops. His words. Just saying.

You definitely knew what was going to happen in a Flair match. But it didn't take away from the quality. If you watched an Arn Anderson match you knew what was going to happen. Personally it didn't bother me that much especially knowing that some things would get mixed in and the false finishes would add to the anticipation.
Nowadays, you can damn near call the match as match involve the same 5 or 6 spots and move setups.

Some wrestlers don't like taking chops. I listen to a wrestling show/podcast called Between the Ropes and one of the hosts was a wrestler and he mentioned how he wasn't fond of having to take chops.

 

[c_commander]

Indeed, although Ring of Honor puts on more consistently good matches than WWE (THESE days). The only thing WWE has over it consistently is its long history (familiarity with many wrestlers, lineage, etc.) and budget (duh?) which means even a turd of a match in the WWE will have a big match feel.

In truth, nowadays (although Smackdown is getting damn good again) I'm much more interested in Chikara and Ring of Honor in terms of current American wrestling cards on average.

Ring of Honor does have some great matches. My only problem with them is that often psychology is lacking and they undersell moves way too often.

 

[dirtyd]

Some wrestlers don't like taking chops. I listen to a wrestling show/podcast called Between the Ropes and one of the hosts was a wrestler and he mentioned how he wasn't fond of having to take chops.

Cuz those son bitches hurt

My friend is a pro and he gave me a couple, let me tell you those chops are 4 real.

 

[ron_mexico]

Anyway a brotha can download the steamboat/flair, steamboat/savage matches.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Cuz those son bitches hurt

My friend is a pro and he gave me a couple, let me tell you those chops are 4 real.

youtube the Danny Bonaduce show where Bubby Ray Dudley gave him some chops and see what happened to his chest.

 

[xspade7]

Wrestling pain is real but the action are predetermine. It takes practice in the ring.

 

[c_commander]

Cuz those son bitches hurt

My friend is a pro and he gave me a couple, let me tell you those chops are 4 real.

I know. They sting like a mutha. I was chillin with some friends and 1 had the nerve to tell us that we were wrong and they didn't hurt. One chop and 1 rest chest later he never said it again.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Ring of Honor does have some great matches. My only problem with them is that often psychology is lacking and they undersell moves way too often.

This is a problem with all the major companies now. When a guy hits a major move, it adds to the match if the other guys continues to sell it into the match. With ROH and TNA's X-Division, it can sometimes become a case of "you hit your move, then I'll hit mine" with very little time for any type of psychology.
A great example was the TNA "Genesis" show from earlier this year. I attended with The Wife and there were two standout matches: the X-Division title match with Chris Sabin and Alex Shelley and the grudge match between Jeff Jarrett and Kurt Angle. While Sabin and Shelley had more spots and were very entertaining, Angle and Jarrett had the better match with far more realism. You really got an old school feel, like they really hated each other (with Jarrett fucking his ex, they really might but that's beside the point).

 

[Deltronz]

This is a problem with all the major companies now. When a guy hits a major move, it adds to the match if the other guys continues to sell it into the match. With ROH and TNA's X-Division, it can sometimes become a case of "you hit your move, then I'll hit mine" with very little time for any type of psychology.
A great example was the TNA "Genesis" show from earlier this year. I attended with The Wife and there were two standout matches: the X-Division title match with Chris Sabin and Alex Shelley and the grudge match between Jeff Jarrett and Kurt Angle. While Sabin and Shelley had more spots and were very entertaining, Angle and Jarrett had the better match with far more realism. You really got an old school feel, like they really hated each other (with Jarrett fucking his ex, they really might but that's beside the point).

It's really a case by case thing in terms of psychology. WWE and TNA certainly aren't immune from having psychology problems in their matches, it's not strictly an indie thing. When you're talking about guys like Jarrett or Angle (especially Angle) who are pros in the ring, then psychology will rarely be an issue. But that is the main event for a reason. I was talking more in terms of general cards. Top to bottom, NOWADAYS I get alot more enjoyment watching Chikara or Ring of Honor on average than WWE or TNA. Sure, it's highly unlikely they'll put on a match of the caliber as say....Undertaker vs HBK (which is argueble MOTY at this point) from this year's Wrestlemania. But will their overall card be substantially better these days on average than this year's Wrestlemania? Yes.

TNA I basically enjoy, but the storylines and the booking irritate me a lot in that promotion (which is a shame, because that roster is NICE). As it stands for me, in terms of overall American cards (I'm discounting Japanese promotions for my ranking because that adds a whole new dimension to this discussion) that the promotions I watch put on THESE DAYS...

Chikara > Ring of Honor >> WWE > TNA (I flip-flop on WWE and TNA. A few months ago I would've said TNA > WWE).

 

[Upgrade Dave]

It's really a case by case thing in terms of psychology. WWE and TNA certainly aren't immune from having psychology problems in their matches, it's not strictly an indie thing. When you're talking about guys like Jarrett or Angle (especially Angle) who are pros in the ring, then psychology will rarely be an issue. But that is the main event for a reason. I was talking more in terms of general cards. Top to bottom, NOWADAYS I get alot more enjoyment watching Chikara or Ring of Honor on average than WWE or TNA. Sure, it's highly unlikely they'll put on a match of the caliber as say....Undertaker vs HBK (which is argueble MOTY at this point) from this year's Wrestlemania. But will their overall card be substantially better these days on average than this year's Wrestlemania? Yes.

TNA I basically enjoy, but the storylines and the booking irritate me a lot in that promotion (which is a shame, because that roster is NICE). As it stands for me, in terms of overall American cards (I'm discounting Japanese promotions for my ranking because that adds a whole new dimension to this discussion) that the promotions I watch put on THESE DAYS...

Chikara > Ring of Honor >> WWE > TNA (I flip-flop on WWE and TNA. A few months ago I would've said TNA > WWE).

Haven't seen Chikara yet and I haven't seen ROH in a while. But I list it differently.

Smackdown > ECW > Impact! > WWE Superstars > Raw
I flip flop with ECW and Impact