The US - A Welfare State for the Rich?

[GAMETHEORY]

http://www.reason.com/0403/fe.js.confessions.shtml
{in the interests of bandwidth preservation, I will only link, although this article is only a few pages long}

Extract wrote:
Ronald Reagan memorably complained about "welfare queens," but he never told us that the biggest welfare queens are the already wealthy. Their lobbyists fawn over politicians, giving them little bits of money -- campaign contributions, plane trips, dinners, golf outings -- in exchange for huge chunks of taxpayers’ money. Millionaires who own your favorite sports teams get subsidies, as do millionaire farmers, corporations, and well-connected plutocrats of every variety. Even successful, wealthy TV journalists. That’s right, I got some of your money too.

I found the above article quite interesting, really. It outlines a few 'welfare scams' that those too rich to need them have access to in the US right now. Farm subsidies to those who don't need them, government insurance policies which could never be justified by private companies, misuse of 'eminent domain' laws and government subsidies for all sorts of crap.

I guess I'm interested in the views of those that bother to read the full article. Do you think there is too much 'welfare' for rich business people and high income earners in the US?

 

[Fuckallyall]

http://www.reason.com/0403/fe.js.confessions.shtml
{in the interests of bandwidth preservation, I will only link, although this article is only a few pages long}





I found the above article quite interesting, really. It outlines a few 'welfare scams' that those too rich to need them have access to in the US right now. Farm subsidies to those who don't need them, government insurance policies which could never be justified by private companies, misuse of 'eminent domain' laws and government subsidies for all sorts of crap.

I guess I'm interested in the views of those that bother to read the full article. Do you think there is too much 'welfare' for rich business people and high income earners in the US?

Good topic. There is too much government "welfare" period. It is nothing more than a way to garner power for an elite portion of the population without them haveing to actually produce anything valuable, while compelling one person to provide for another. It's bullshit, and has no place in a free society. Holla.

 

[GAMETHEORY]

Thats true afterall these 'millionaires' are being paid for their services through the market economy. They shouldn't need handouts from government.

 

[Fuckallyall]

Thats true afterall these 'millionaires' are being paid for their services through the market economy. They shouldn't need handouts from government.

Nobody should get handouts from the government in the way that it is currently done. In order to give anybody anything, the government must take it first. And taking from one and giving to another without consideration (service or product), is servitude, no matter how you slice it.

 

[GAMETHEORY]

Think read somewhere last year that America has three million millionares and 120 billlionares while 20% of Americans earn 9 times less than the millionares. The most poor people who can't get out of their poor stance are American poor. Truly the American dream states that you would get anything if you work hard enough for it. Yeah right and they say also communism can't work !

 

[Fuckallyall]

Think read somewhere last year that America has three million millionares and 120 billlionares while 20% of Americans earn 9 times less than the millionares. The most poor people who can't get out of their poor stance are American poor. Truly the American dream states that you would get anything if you work hard enough for it. Yeah right and they say also communism can't work !

Couple of things:

According to the 2000 Census, over 80% of millionaires (and this includes billionaires) are first generation in that category, which means they earned it.

What makes you state that poor folks can't get ot of thier stance. Poverty is concentrated in the young, and least likely in the old.

The American dream doesn't state what you said at all. At most, you can end up with a decent living if you work at it, and that tends to be the case.

And communism can't work, if you want prosperity. The most concentrated wealth in the world lies in countries that do not have anything resembling a free market. For example, Saudi Arabia has one of the highest per capita incomes on the planet, but if I'm not mistaking, a much higher infant and maternal mortality rate than America. I'm not even going to start on China, with thier Great Leap Forward and other atrocities.

Please, PLEASE do some research into the living conditions and economic mobility of several populations. You will be surprised by what you find.
Here's a hint: Nobody from America is trying to break into other countries (unless they are on the lamb).

 

[gene cisco]

First of the government steals money from the taxpayers so I'm happy to see people steal it back!!!!

Why should we pay 3 billion a year to israel of our tax dollars? why should we give egypt a billion?

Fuck that shit the government steals our money all praise to those that figure out how to steal it back, better them than those dam foreign elite with thier 1000$ plate dinners.

While the elite steal our money and give it to their elite allies, some of figured out how to get shit back.

Nobody can even come close to being as big a rip off artist as the government.

 

[Chitownheadbusa]

majority of the rich have used some sort of "free money" to get to the position their in.
people talk about how blacks get so much free money...but to be honest with you we dont get to much of shit compared to the white folks and probably even the mexicans.

 

[GAMETHEORY]

Couple of things:

According to the 2000 Census, over 80% of millionaires (and this includes billionaires) are first generation in that category, which means they earned it.

What makes you state that poor folks can't get ot of thier stance. Poverty is concentrated in the young, and least likely in the old.

The American dream doesn't state what you said at all. At most, you can end up with a decent living if you work at it, and that tends to be the case.

And communism can't work, if you want prosperity. The most concentrated wealth in the world lies in countries that do not have anything resembling a free market. For example, Saudi Arabia has one of the highest per capita incomes on the planet, but if I'm not mistaking, a much higher infant and maternal mortality rate than America. I'm not even going to start on China, with thier Great Leap Forward and other atrocities.

Please, PLEASE do some research into the living conditions and economic mobility of several populations. You will be surprised by what you find.
Here's a hint: Nobody from America is trying to break into other countries (unless they are on the lamb).

I hear what you just said and looks like we gonna have some time in this thread. Yes I did some research on this subject before i posted. I also would like to point out to you that America has often betrayed its fine ideals. The Founding Fathers did not admit women or blacks to their meritocratic republic. The country's elites have repeatedly flirted with the aristocratic principle, whether among the brahmins of Boston or, more flagrantly, the rural ruling class in the South. Yet America has repeatedly succeeded in living up to its best self, and today most Americans like the ones you gave an example believe that their country still does a reasonable job of providing opportunities for everybody, including blacks and women while in Europe, majorities of people in every country except Britain, the Czech Republic and Slovakia believe that forces beyond their personal control determine their success but in America only 32% take such a fatalistic view but the obvious question is are they right?

Now this is what i found out:
First;a growing body of evidence suggests that the meritocratic ideal is in trouble in America,Income inequality is growing to levels not seen since the Gilded Age, around the 1880s, but social mobility is not increasing at anything like the same pace: would-be Horatio Algers are finding it no easier to climb from rags to riches, while the children of the privileged have a greater chance of staying at the top of the social heap. My point is the United States risks calcifying into a European-style class-based society and funny enough Americans know this but pretend nothing is happening

he dream that you think Americans chase has turned into a nightmare and you dont need to go far from your office or home to see that

 

[Fuckallyall]

First of the government steals money from the taxpayers so I'm happy to see people steal it back!!!!

Why should we pay 3 billion a year to israel of our tax dollars? why should we give egypt a billion?

Fuck that shit the government steals our money all praise to those that figure out how to steal it back, better them than those dam foreign elite with thier 1000$ plate dinners.

While the elite steal our money and give it to their elite allies, some of figured out how to get shit back.

Nobody can even come close to being as big a rip off artist as the government.

GC - I agree with what you are saying about foreign aid. I am opposed to that as well. However, I can't follow you with the whole theft ideal. I don;t think a good society is a free-for-all, especially when it comes to my money. My point is that instead of society being a race to the bottom, let be one that allaws races to the top. Holla.

 

[Fuckallyall]

I hear what you just said and looks like we gonna have some time in this thread. Yes I did some research on this subject before i posted. I also would like to point out to you that America has often betrayed its fine ideals. The Founding Fathers did not admit women or blacks to their meritocratic republic. The country's elites have repeatedly flirted with the aristocratic principle, whether among the brahmins of Boston or, more flagrantly, the rural ruling class in the South. Yet America has repeatedly succeeded in living up to its best self, and today most Americans like the ones you gave an example believe that their country still does a reasonable job of providing opportunities for everybody, including blacks and women while in Europe, majorities of people in every country except Britain, the Czech Republic and Slovakia believe that forces beyond their personal control determine their success but in America only 32% take such a fatalistic view but the obvious question is are they right?

Now this is what i found out:
First;a growing body of evidence suggests that the meritocratic ideal is in trouble in America,Income inequality is growing to levels not seen since the Gilded Age, around the 1880s, but social mobility is not increasing at anything like the same pace: would-be Horatio Algers are finding it no easier to climb from rags to riches, while the children of the privileged have a greater chance of staying at the top of the social heap. My point is the United States risks calcifying into a European-style class-based society and funny enough Americans know this but pretend nothing is happening

he dream that you think Americans chase has turned into a nightmare and you dont need to go far from your office or home to see that

First, the term "income inequality" is IMO a hollow euphemism for different incomes between people. People have always had different incomes, except when all had little or no incomes.

Also, I think I know of the body of data that you are refering to. It is the study that concludes that wealth is accumulating to fewer people for one of the few times in American history. This phenomona always happens after a downturn in the stock market, ala the burst of the tech bubble. That is turning around due to the real estate market boom.
And the American dream will become the American nightmare to some. There will be failures in a free market, and that sucks if you happen to be one of the failures. But that is not evidence of a systemic fault. That's life. And it is supreme arrogance to think that we can exempt ourselves from life.
Also, the best way to keep the poor and middle class there is to tax them more heavily when they start to become wealthy. And what is it that many "prgressives" want to do? Make people "pay" for being successful. That type of thinking is what fuels class warfare, which benefits no one.

The best way to level the playing field is not to have large piles of money taken from others and put a big "come and get it !" sign on it (which is what welfare is". Because those that are already successful are more likely to get thier hands on it than anybody else.

 

[Temujin]

The best way to level the playing field is not to have large piles of money taken from others and put a big "come and get it !" sign on it (which is what welfare is". Because those that are already successful are more likely to get thier hands on it than anybody else.

So in the abscence of all social welfare programs what do the orphans, mentally and physically disabled and impoverished children do? What choice did they make to put themselves in their position and how can they help themselves if we are unwilling as a nation to help our own?
I am really trying to figure out how a 13 year old child with the mind of a 4 year old is supposed pull himself up by his bootstraps when he can't even tie his own shoes.

Social conscious has always been the only levy to keep the greed of capitalism from turning this country into a real shithole. It's sick that the biggest beneficiaries of handouts in this country are foreign governments and big business yet all the focus is on the poor.

 

[Built4Life]

Basic capitalist economics demands that there has to be an underclass. If everyone has good income that will cause too much inflation. The reason why there is welfare for the poor is because we as an American have a conscience. it also pacifies the poor. So all that bullshit about everyone can lift themselves up is nonsense. If the poor are not given anything then it will create an unstable life for everyone. it helps maintain people's wealth as the poor will eventually rebel from the inequalities that they face. That is my opinion except for the basic economics thing.

Also, even if you are first generation miilionare that does not mean that you were not helped or you did not come from an environment that helped your ability to attain that wealth. The facts are what they are. Upward mobility is a myth. Europeans know this, but somehow Americans buy into the myth because it can happen, but it is unlikely to happen. It is like winning the lottery. There are people who have one, but it is highly unlikely that you may win in your lifetime and beyond.

 

[gene cisco]

GC - I agree with what you are saying about foreign aid. I am opposed to that as well. However, I can't follow you with the whole theft ideal. I don;t think a good society is a free-for-all, especially when it comes to my money. My point is that instead of society being a race to the bottom, let be one that allaws races to the top. Holla.

I only condone stealing what is being stolen from you.

When the crooks in the government wanted to start all this tax bullshit they used the "stealing from the rich to give to the poor" to get the common humanoids to go for it.

Turns out the only people hurt by tax slavery are the poor and middle[/b] class cause the rich know how to stay ahead of the game.

The average american works until almost june for the government b4 for they start earning for themselves.

Its sickening and isn't anything but a big hustle. When citizens learn how to get over on the greedy government I am all for it. The government aint hurting, and truth be told we pay our fair way.

We buy our food, we pay for our shelter, we pay our electric, we pay fees for the roads, we pay our own social security, we pay for our own water.

Taxes previously were only levied during war, somehow they came up with a way to always steal, so what in gods name is wrong with stealing your own money back from greedy government thieves?

The rich use corporations and all kinds of shit to get over on the hustle, is it cheating? Hell no, its being smart and keeping your own shit.

Sad, sad, but most americans are duped into the "pay your fair share rhetoric".

If only the middle class and working poor knew how to keep more of their own money instead of funding private jets and top shelf lifestyles for do nothing career politicians, here and abroad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mrfreddygoodbud]

http://www.reason.com/0403/fe.js.confessions.shtml
{in the interests of bandwidth preservation, I will only link, although this article is only a few pages long}





I found the above article quite interesting, really. It outlines a few 'welfare scams' that those too rich to need them have access to in the US right now. Farm subsidies to those who don't need them, government insurance policies which could never be justified by private companies, misuse of 'eminent domain' laws and government subsidies for all sorts of crap.

I guess I'm interested in the views of those that bother to read the full article. Do you think there is too much 'welfare' for rich business people and high income earners in the US?

I am going to print and read on my commute home..

the rich own the air waves, but they dont control cyber space yet..

so all their dirt can be put under a microscope, like they consistently do, the disenfranchised.

Thanks for the post, I printed it out to read on my commute

really good shyt

Thks

 

[Fuckallyall]

So in the abscence of all social welfare programs what do the orphans, mentally and physically disabled and impoverished children do? What choice did they make to put themselves in their position and how can they help themselves if we are unwilling as a nation to help our own?
I am really trying to figure out how a 13 year old child with the mind of a 4 year old is supposed pull himself up by his bootstraps when he can't even tie his own shoes.

Social conscious has always been the only levy to keep the greed of capitalism from turning this country into a real shithole. It's sick that the biggest beneficiaries of handouts in this country are foreign governments and big business yet all the focus is on the poor.

As I have said a million times (and as often selectively forgotten), charity should be implemented by private individuals or the organizations they fund. When it becomes tax based, it is servitude because there is no choice in the matter. And for the millionth time also, I am a firm believer in charity. You invariably avoid this point and move to hysterics and very extreme circumstances. Those very extreme circumstances do not justify the wholesale and onerous "redistribution" nonsense that "progressives" advocate.

The government is not society. Those who equate the two show thier hidden tyrannical and fascist impulses by stating such, for fascism is just that; making the government the society.

 

[Laughing Man]

First of the government steals money from the taxpayers so I'm happy to see people steal it back!!!!

Why should we pay 3 billion a year to israel of our tax dollars? why should we give egypt a billion?

Fuck that shit the government steals our money all praise to those that figure out how to steal it back, better them than those dam foreign elite with thier 1000$ plate dinners.

While the elite steal our money and give it to their elite allies, some of figured out how to get shit back.

Nobody can even come close to being as big a rip off artist as the government.

What about the rampant corporate welfare to Big Oil, that shit to the airlines after 9/11, and every other god damn big company that shirk on its tax responsibility, this country is a damn trip

 

[bborn]

peace
You think this is some shit
Go pick up the RollingStone Dec edition withSnoop on the cover where they talk about how rich the rich are getting in comparision to the middle and lower classes - said that the disparity between poor and middle hasnt changed much but the top of the food chain in wealth are making 5Xs as much as they were just 50-60 yrs ago:they painted the physical discription with the image of 1000 people standing in a line shortest to tallest in terms of wealth
Shits crazy and are comparing this country's growth to the way the wealth has grown in certain South American countries whose ultra rich able into corruption and political control through leverage.

peace