The Truth Behind the Social Security and Medicare Alarm Bells

thoughtone

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source: Robert Reich's Blog

What are we to make of yesterday's report from the trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds that Social Security will run out of assets in 2037, four years sooner than previously forecast, and Medicare’s hospital fund will be exhausted by 2017, two years earlier than predicted a year ago?

Reports of these two funds' demise are not new. Fifteen years ago, when I was a trustee of the Social Security and the Medicare trust funds (which meant, essentially, that I and a few others met periodically with the official actuary of the funds, received his report, asked a few questions, and signed some papers) both funds were supposedly in trouble. But as I learned, the timing and magnitude of the trouble <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"> depended a great deal on what assumptions the actuary used in his models</SPAN>. As I recall, he then <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">assumed that the economy would grow by about 2.6 percent a year over the next seventy-five years</SPAN>. But <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">go back into American history all the way to the Civil War -- including the Great Depression and the severe depressions of the late 19th century -- and the economy's average annual growth is closer to 3 percent. Use a 3 percent assumption and Social Security is flush for the next seventy-five years</SPAN>.

Yes, I know, the post-war Baby Boom is moving through the population like a pig through a python. The number of retirees eligible for benefits will almost double to 79.5 million in 2045 from 40.5 million this year. But we knew that the Boomers were coming then, too. What we didn't know then was the surge in immigration. Yet immigrants are mostly young. Rather than being a drain on Social Security when the Boomers need it, most immigrants will be contributing to the system during these years, which should take more of the pressure off.

Even if you assume Social Security is a problem, it's not a big problem. Raise the ceiling slightly on yearly wages subject to Social Security payroll taxes (now a bit over $100,000), and the problem vanishes under harsher assumptions than I'd use about the future. President Obama suggested this in the campaign and stirred up a hornet's nest because this solution apparently dips too deeply into the middle class, which made him backtrack and begin talking about raising additional Social Security payroll taxes on people earning over $250,000. Social Security would also be in safe shape if it were slightly more means tested, or if the retirement age were raised just a bit. The main point is that Social Security is a tiny problem, as these things go.

Medicare is entirely different. It's a monster. But fixing it has everything to do with slowing the rate of growth of medical costs -- including, let's not forget, having a public option when it comes to choosing insurance plans under the emerging universal health insurance bill. With a public option, the government can use its bargaining power with drug companies and suppliers of medical services to reduce prices. And, as I've noted, keep pressure on private insurers to trim costs yet provide effective medical outcomes.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Don't be confused by these alarms from the Social Security and Medicare trustees.</SPAN> Social Security is a tiny problem. Medicare is a terrible one, but the problem is not really Medicare; it's quickly rising health-care costs. Look more closely and the real problem isn't even health-care costs; it's a system that pushes up costs by rewarding inefficiency, causing unbelievable waste, pushing over-medication, providing inadequate prevention, over-using emergency rooms because many uninsured people can't afford regular doctor checkups, and spending billions on advertising and marketing seeking to enroll healthy people and avoid sick ones.
 
source: Robert Reich's Blog

What are we to make of yesterday's report from the trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds that Social Security will run out of assets in 2037, four years sooner than previously forecast, and Medicare’s hospital fund will be exhausted by 2017, two years earlier than predicted a year ago?

Reports of these two funds' demise are not new. Fifteen years ago, when I was a trustee of the Social Security and the Medicare trust funds (which meant, essentially, that I and a few others met periodically with the official actuary of the funds, received his report, asked a few questions, and signed some papers) both funds were supposedly in trouble. But as I learned, the timing and magnitude of the trouble <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"> depended a great deal on what assumptions the actuary used in his models</SPAN>. As I recall, he then <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">assumed that the economy would grow by about 2.6 percent a year over the next seventy-five years</SPAN>. But <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">go back into American history all the way to the Civil War -- including the Great Depression and the severe depressions of the late 19th century -- and the economy's average annual growth is closer to 3 percent. Use a 3 percent assumption and Social Security is flush for the next seventy-five years</SPAN>.

Yes, I know, the post-war Baby Boom is moving through the population like a pig through a python. The number of retirees eligible for benefits will almost double to 79.5 million in 2045 from 40.5 million this year. But we knew that the Boomers were coming then, too. What we didn't know then was the surge in immigration. Yet immigrants are mostly young. Rather than being a drain on Social Security when the Boomers need it, most immigrants will be contributing to the system during these years, which should take more of the pressure off.

Even if you assume Social Security is a problem, it's not a big problem. Raise the ceiling slightly on yearly wages subject to Social Security payroll taxes (now a bit over $100,000), and the problem vanishes under harsher assumptions than I'd use about the future. President Obama suggested this in the campaign and stirred up a hornet's nest because this solution apparently dips too deeply into the middle class, which made him backtrack and begin talking about raising additional Social Security payroll taxes on people earning over $250,000. Social Security would also be in safe shape if it were slightly more means tested, or if the retirement age were raised just a bit. The main point is that Social Security is a tiny problem, as these things go.

Medicare is entirely different. It's a monster. But fixing it has everything to do with slowing the rate of growth of medical costs -- including, let's not forget, having a public option when it comes to choosing insurance plans under the emerging universal health insurance bill. With a public option, the government can use its bargaining power with drug companies and suppliers of medical services to reduce prices. And, as I've noted, keep pressure on private insurers to trim costs yet provide effective medical outcomes.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Don't be confused by these alarms from the Social Security and Medicare trustees.</SPAN> Social Security is a tiny problem. Medicare is a terrible one, but the problem is not really Medicare; it's quickly rising health-care costs. Look more closely and the real problem isn't even health-care costs; it's a system that pushes up costs by rewarding inefficiency, causing unbelievable waste, pushing over-medication, providing inadequate prevention, over-using emergency rooms because many uninsured people can't afford regular doctor checkups, and spending billions on advertising and marketing seeking to enroll healthy people and avoid sick ones.

Margaret Thatcher once said that socialism is good until other people's money runs out. David Walker is a bipartisan top accountant for the United States. Check the video below. He's not a party hack. Eventually our credit will run out. What you fail to realize is that we are a nation of laws. Obama can't force doctors to treat people for low pay. Research for the next best drug takes years and MONEY. My friend if your boss walked up to you and said "Thought" your not working fries this week like normally. From now on your washing dishes and by the way i'm gonna cut your pay because I've decided (president Obama) that you were being compensated way over what the market dictated. What would be your incentive be to stay. When I was in college I attended a lecture regarding Russian culture. The professor told us that he received less than 100 dollars a month for his services. America was built on individuals pursuing their self interest ( ie GREED). You would be typing on your computer if some one wasn't Greedy.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGpY2hw7ao8 Thought just listen to the guy if you don't believe me. When I read that Mr. Reich said that SS is a small problem I Couldn't believe it.
 
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I agree slightly, what you ultimately have to accept with the new world economy(lol...it has actually been like this for most our lives...lol...) is that monetary power is now based on popularity. Which may be the reason Obama was allowed to get into the presidential office(whoa...let me take this tin foil off!!!). We have got to get it into our heads, that money was always a fallacious notion. Making money is not catching fish. It is not building your own house. And for the most part, that is what those who rule/run nations/civilizations want/need...dependent slaves. Independence is painful, and most people are cool with telling themselves lies to assuage the reality that they are where they are financially because of someone or something else...

My advice to those who still choose to be a cog in this system, promote americanism in the way brothers in gangs promote their set, it could be your dollars only hope...


Just my dime and a nickel...as alwayz....
 
Margaret Thatcher once said that socialism is good until other people's money runs out. David Walker is a bipartisan top accountant for the United States. Check the video below. He's not a party hack. Eventually our credit will run out. What you fail to realize is that we are a nation of laws. Obama can't force doctor to treat people for low pay. Research for the next best drug takes years and MONEY. My friend if your boss walked into up to you and said "Thought" your not working fries this week like normally. From now on your washing dishes and by the way i'm gonna cut your pay because I've decided (president Obama) that you were being compensated way over what the market dictated. What would be your incentive be to stay. When I was in college I attended a lecture regarding Russian culture. The professor told us that he received less than 100 dollars a month for his services. America was built on individuals pursuing their self interest ( ie GREED). You would be typing on your computer if some one wasn't Greedy.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGpY2hw7ao8 Thought just listen to the guy if you don't believe me. When I read that Mr. Reich said that SS is a small problem I Couldn't believe it.

Isn’t it ironic (or not so) that the three countries that are in the deepest economic mess are the US, Great Britain and Ireland. The three countries that bought in to the Regan/ Thatcher trickle down hoax the most. I got news for you, we ran out of credit a while back. Clinton had us on a path to recovery. The first balanced budget since before the trickle down madness. But of course like Bush and McSame said, the economy is fundamentally sound.
 
Isn’t it ironic (or not so) that the three countries that are in the deepest economic mess are the US, Great Britain and Ireland. The three countries that bought in to the Regan/ Thatcher trickle down hoax the most. I got news for you, we ran out of credit a while back. Clinton had us on a path to recovery. The first balanced budget since before the trickle down madness. But of course like Bush and McSame said, the economy is fundamentally sound.

God you make this to easy!!!! He did it with a republican majority in Congress. The constitution grants congress that right to make laws.( ie ) write checks. Remember when some of the federal parks shut down due to the some of the policy differences that Clinton and the republicans had. Dude I don't even need notes to redirect your fairytales. Check fact check or any other source except the huffington post. Ha ha!!!
 
God you make this to easy!!!! He did it with a republican majority in Congress. The constitution grants congress that right to make laws.( ie ) write checks. Remember when some of the federal parks shut down due to the some of the policy differences that Clinton and the republicans had. Dude I don't even need notes to redirect your fairytales. Check fact check or any other source except the huffington post. Ha ha!!!

So using you logic, the GOP majority from 2000 to 2006, with GW as President, everything should have come up roses. Instead as Paul Krugman stated, basically no wealth was created in this decade. The facts are you are partially correct. When Clinton came in to the presidency in 1992, he and the democratically controlled congress raised taxes, or to be more accurate, raised the rates for the top 10% of income earners. When the GOP came in under Gingrich's Contract On America, the GOP basically held everything Clinton did up, from his spending programs to his federal judge appointments. This combination of higher revues along with lower spending did yield good results. When GW stole the election in 2000, there was still a majority of republicans in the congress, until the 2006 elections. We all know what the last eight years hath wrought!
 
So using you logic, the GOP majority from 2000 to 2006, with GW as President, everything should have come up roses. Instead as Paul Krugman stated, basically no wealth was created in this decade. The facts are you are partially correct. When Clinton came in to the presidency in 1992, he and the democratically controlled congress raised taxes, or to be more accurate, raised the rates for the top 10% of income earners. When the GOP came in under Gingrich's Contract On America, the GOP basically held everything Clinton did up, from his spending programs to his federal judge appointments. This combination of higher revues along with lower spending did yield good results. When GW stole the election in 2000, there was still a majority of republicans in the congress, until the 2006 elections. We all know what the last eight years hath wrought!

When Reagan lowered the tax brackets the government collected record revenues. When people have more money to spend it grows the economy. When you tax the people there is less to go around. Example: when the gas prises skyrocketed people changed there habits over night. Furthermore, the surplus that clinton speaks to is ( surplus ) a tax overpayment. Thought what I'm try to convey to you is that it is your money. Also al gore asked for a recount. There were 3 he lost each. Typically when liberals lose at the ballot box they what to use the court system. Scalia stated gore pushed the issue and he lost. Yes my Side lost the past election but were not belly aching about Barack stole the election. We got our clocks cleaned last fall. To me respect for the office is paramount.
 
Yes my Side lost the past election but were not belly aching about Barack stole the election.

<font size="3">And, you can't. </font size>

So, why even allude to it if not a veiled attempt to bring some legitimacy to G.W. 2000 ???

QueEx
 
Isn’t it ironic (or not so) that the three countries that are in the deepest economic mess are the US, Great Britain and Ireland. The three countries that bought in to the Regan/ Thatcher trickle down hoax the most. I got news for you, we ran out of credit a while back. Clinton had us on a path to recovery. The first balanced budget since before the trickle down madness. But of course like Bush and McSame said, the economy is fundamentally sound.

Allow me to direct your fairytale!!! Accepting your premis of the harshness of trickle down economics. Have you ever been on a cruise? Well who benefits from patrons booking trips to Cozumel. The people on the trip for the cruise or the people aboard the ship providing the goods and services for the people. You see my friend, when the people spend their money the employees receive payment for providing a service. Hence trickle down economics. Companies provide jobs for their employees. It's not the other way around. What poor person have you ever received a job from. If your job decided to move their operations across seas due in part to high taxation. Would you still be against trickle down economics. One of the main reasons why many countries in Africa is failing because of those who champion your belief system. By the way are you a business owner? Have you ever had to meet a payroll? Liberal love being liberal with other peoples money. The number one priority of a business is to make a profit. Without that you won't have a job my friend. On payday you expect a check not excuses of how the government is taxing the company.
 
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Litening/reading the back and forth between Thoughtone and Gunner reaffirms my belief that the ideological purist of both major parties are the problem. Their belief in the rightness of the "cause" and abject refusal to get out of their bubble coupled with the inability of minor parties or a new party to organize and emerge as a force will be the downfall of this country. I firmly believe that what has happened the past 8 years and what is happening now needs to play out. The citizens of this country witnessed 8 years of republican incompetence and mismanagement which is being followed with democratic doublespeak about fiscal prudence while at the same time ramming through the biggest tax, borrowing and spending spree in history. If the democrats continue on this wreckless path the ramfications will be swift and destructive for them and the country.


Robert Reich is playing his democratic party role as economic spinmeister.Anything he says should be taking with a grain of salt. I've watched and lstened to him from way back when he was in the Clinton administration. Nothing has changed as far as I can see. He bases his rosy outlook on a 3 percent avg. growth rate. Anyone who has read a prospectus about a company or invested any money in the markets should be familiar with this:


PAST PERFORMANCE DOES NOT GARUANTY FUTURE RESULTS

He's trying to sell snake oil to a public that may not be familiar with that statement.


There appears to be some sort of schizm inside the Obama administration between the money managers Tim Geithner and the Social Security Trustees saying there's a problem and the political hacks suchas Reich saying there isn't.....hmmmmmm....wonder how this will play out.
 
Allow me to direct your fairytale!!! Accepting your premis of the harshness of trickle down economics. Have you ever been on a cruise? Well who benefits from patrons booking trips to Cozumel. The people on the trip for the cruise or the people aboard the ship providing the goods and services for the people. You see my friend, when the people spend their money the employees receive payment for providing a service. Hence trickle down economics. Companies provide jobs for their employees. It's not the other way around. What poor person have you ever received a job from. If your job decided to move their operations across seas due in part to high taxation. Would you still be against trickle down economics. One of the main reasons why many countries in Africa is failing because of those who champion your belief system. By the way are you a business owner? Have you ever had to meet a payroll? Liberal love being liberal with other peoples money. The number one priority of a business is to make a profit. Without that you won't have a job my friend. On payday you expect a check not excuses of how the government is taxing the company.



You can have the greatest product or service in the world, if no one buys it, it’s useless! Betamax, New Coke were all good produces, created by wealthy corportaions, but failed due to lack of demand. Poor people start jobs all of the time. Haven't you seen people on the side of the road or on the street selling things. I mean things that they made themselves. Then they pour their profits back in to their business. That's how some of the biggest department stores and super market chains began, street vendors during the 1800s selling their home grown produce. Of course since the WalMart-tization of America, very few local sellers can even get in to the game. Why do you think the unemployment rate is rising? There is no shortage of capacity. We haven't had this many choices of different car models since before the 1930s, but there is a shortage of buyers. Thus the consumer drives employment. I will give the example I gave in an earlier thread (search my username, you will learn something). Henry Ford paid his employees more than the other car manufactures so they would have enough money to buy his products. Getting back to you example, if the people don't book cruises, then their will be no cruise line. Why are their cruise lines in the wealthiest countries and why countries like Japan and Western Europe are the leaders in cruise line patrons? Because their citizens have more disposable income. You find the demand, and then the industrious individuals fulfill the niche. And the reason why Africa is a basket case is because of the political corruption throughout the continent. Nigeria has enough oil that every citizen in that country could be living at the standards of the west. But oil profits are funneled out of the country to build villas and hidden away in tax havens. I do have a side business and I have paid people from time to time to aid me. If I don't get enough work to justify taking on help, then I don't use paid help and lately I haven’t been making too much money. So again the demand is the driver of business, not the business driving demand. You must have failed ECON 101!

P.S. Liberal is a good thing. Conservative is getting a bad name. Look at the compassionate conservative.:lol:
 
Litening/reading the back and forth between Thoughtone and Gunner reaffirms my belief that the ideological purist of both major parties are the problem. Their belief in the rightness of the "cause" and abject refusal to get out of their bubble coupled with the inability of minor parties or a new party to organize and emerge as a force will be the downfall of this country. I firmly believe that what has happened the past 8 years and what is happening now needs to play out. The citizens of this country witnessed 8 years of republican incompetence and mismanagement which is being followed with democratic doublespeak about fiscal prudence while at the same time ramming through the biggest tax, borrowing and spending spree in history. If the democrats continue on this wreckless path the ramfications will be swift and destructive for them and the country.


Robert Reich is playing his democratic party role as economic spinmeister.Anything he says should be taking with a grain of salt. I've watched and lstened to him from way back when he was in the Clinton administration. Nothing has changed as far as I can see. He bases his rosy outlook on a 3 percent avg. growth rate. Anyone who has read a prospectus about a company or invested any money in the markets should be familiar with this:


PAST PERFORMANCE DOES NOT GARUANTY FUTURE RESULTS

He's trying to sell snake oil to a public that may not be familiar with that statement.


There appears to be some sort of schizm inside the Obama administration between the money managers Tim Geithner and the Social Security Trustees saying there's a problem and the political hacks suchas Reich saying there isn't.....hmmmmmm....wonder how this will play out.

I'm not a purist. I agree Obama seems to been putting his faith into the same shysters that created this mess. Reich is not part of the Obama administration. In fact many say that Obama has not listening to those on the left political as far as the economy goes. Maybe this is moderate, independent-ness showing. I don’t agree with most of it, but I will give him a chance for an outcome. It took us 30 years to create this mess, it is not going to be solved in Obama’s first 200 days.
 
I'm not a purist. I agree Obama seems to been putting his faith into the same shysters that created this mess. Reich is not part of the Obama administration. In fact many say that Obama has not listening to those on the left political as far as the economy goes. Maybe this is moderate, independent-ness showing. I don’t agree with most of it, but I will give him a chance for an outcome. It took us 30 years to create this mess, it is not going to be solved in Obama’s first 200 days.

I'll take your word on not being a purist and leave it at that. You are correct in that Reich is not a member of Obama's administration. A more appropiate label would be a democratic party hack. Thanks for pointing out my error.

I have yet to see anything moderate in Obama thus far. Every proposal that I've seen so far is as far left as he could go without being called a left wing lunatic. The only moderating force I see are the so called moderate and blue dog Dems. How much they are willing to challenge Obama remains to be seen.


It is clear what his agenda is and how he wants to proceed with that agenda. For me it's enough to make a judgement on it. The way it is currently presented I'm still not a supporter and have moved towards being a vocal opponent,though not there yet.
 
I'll take your word on not being a purist and leave it at that. You are correct in that Reich is not a member of Obama's administration. A more appropiate label would be a democratic party hack. Thanks for pointing out my error.

I have yet to see anything moderate in Obama thus far. Every proposal that I've seen so far is as far left as he could go without being called a left wing lunatic. The only moderating force I see are the so called moderate and blue dog Dems. How much they are willing to challenge Obama remains to be seen.


It is clear what his agenda is and how he wants to proceed with that agenda. For me it's enough to make a judgement on it. The way it is currently presented I'm still not a supporter and have moved towards being a vocal opponent,though not there yet.

Not pursuing the Bush administration on torture, not allowing the banks and other corporate interests to seek their nature levels and fail, expanding the war in Afghanistan? You see these as "far left as he could go without being called a left wing lunatic?" You sir have exposed yourself as a right wing shill. Just about every non DLC and Blue Dog democrat that has a public forum has become skeptical of Obama over these issues. BTW, these so called moderate and Blue Dog Dems are the main obstruction to credit card reform and banking reform among other changes that need to be done. I guess they are your kind of people. Its just that you, the right have been bitching and moaning so loudly since Obama first took the oath over everything he has done, you cannot recognize that others truly have criticized him, legitimately.
 
Not pursuing the Bush administration on torture, not allowing the banks and other corporate interests to seek their nature levels and fail, expanding the war in Afghanistan? You see these as "far left as he could go without being called a left wing lunatic?" You sir have exposed yourself as a right wing shill. Just about every non DLC and Blue Dog democrat that has a public forum has become skeptical of Obama over these issues. BTW, these so called moderate and Blue Dog Dems are the main obstruction to credit card reform and banking reform among other changes that need to be done. I guess they are your kind of people. Its just that you, the right have been bitching and moaning so loudly since Obama first took the oath over everything he has done, you cannot recognize that others truly have criticized him, legitimately.


A right wing shill:lol::lol:

Did I strike a nerve?? You're losing it again.

He's backtracking on the torture issue because he's realized his first reaction to release the photo's would open up a pandora's box of problems from giving Middle East extremist's the perfect recruiting tool to ensnaring some of his democratic allies in his net.

Ummmm yeah interfering in the markets to the extent of propping up failed companies, firing managers, attempting to usurp bond holders rights and telling car makers what products to make is classic left wing politics.

He's not expanding the war in Afghanistan. What he's doing is trying to stave off defeat. Al Queda is safely camped out in Pakistan gaining strength. The only forces fighting in Afghanistan are the Taliban versus the U.S. along with it's allies. No one has a clue on what to do there now that Al Queda is gone.

Skepticism does not equal opposition.Like I said we shall see how it plays out when his proposals come up for a vote.

The last part of your rant is just pathetic on it's face and does not dignify a response.
 
A right wing shill:lol::lol:

Did I strike a nerve?? You're losing it again.


He's backtracking on the torture issue because he's realized his first reaction to release the photo's would open up a pandora's box of problems from giving Middle East extremist's the perfect recruiting tool to ensnaring some of his democratic allies in his net.

The so called left would pursue Bush's crimes with a passion and in fact would not stop until Iran Contra, J Edgar Hoover, Cointelpro and any other government cover up was exposed. Obama wants to move on. That ain’t left!

Ummmm yeah interfering in the markets to the extent of propping up failed companies, firing managers, attempting to usurp bond holders rights and telling car makers what products to make is classic left wing politics.

The left would let the hypocrisy of the so called free market fail under its own parasitic weight. Giving corporations public money for anything is not a tenet of the so called left. Are you familiar with the anti- globalization movement?

He's not expanding the war in Afghanistan. What he's doing is trying to stave off defeat. Al Queda is safely camped out in Pakistan gaining strength. The only forces fighting in Afghanistan are the Taliban versus the U.S. along with it's allies. No one has a clue on what to do there now that Al Queda is gone.

The left would not pursue the same failed policies that got the former Soviet Union embarrassed when they tried to subdue the Afghani people. The left would recognize the Blow Back that caused the entire Middle East issues.

Skepticism does not equal opposition.Like I said we shall see how it plays out when his proposals come up for a vote.

Stranage quote. Please explain it?

The last part of your rant is just pathetic on it's face and does not dignify a response.

Please, tell me how the so called moderates and Blue Dogs are a positive on preventing banking and credit card reform. You won't get away that easy.
 
You're political naivete is shining bright.

Political expediency drives such issues as investigating your political opponent. You won't hold power forever, therefore, investigating them to this extent is inviting the same for your side once another party holds office. OK, go ahead, investigate and prosecute as far back as Hoover. Remember Kennedy and Johnson were his boss also. Matter of fact weren't Truman and Roosevelt his boss also?
So you're gonna destroy the Democratic brand for ideological purity? Who's really making an admission here?



Strange quote huh??

You're the one that said


"Just about every non DLC and Blue Dog democrat that has a public forum has become skeptical of Obama over these issues."

Are you saying that your own words are strange?Politicians claim skepticism all the time. What counts is the vote they make when the time comes.

You brought up the old USSR in regard to Afghanistan. You do realize communism is a left wing ideology. It would appear this expansion( your word) is following right along that failed expansion.

Regarding the Blue Dog/Moderate Dems and the credit card bill. They're hoping to pull the bill towards the political center,hence, moderating the bill towards the political center. I don't see how you missed that.

Hypocrisy of the markets you say. You do realize that hypocritical system got this country to where it's at today.What do you propose to replace it with. A centrally administered, government controlled, micro-managed economy for the benefit of the proliteriate...ummmmm I mean the people. Yes I'm familiar with the anti-globilization movement. Not getting very far is it?

You've got a long way to go if you want to catch me let alone this dream of yours of letting me go.Bulk your weight up son then try again.
 
I just read your last post about 10 times.

Are you saying the so called left wing of the Democratic party does not exist. That Obama is a moderate and his policies reflect moderation and anybody opposed to him is a right winger?
 
I have this plastered on several threads. Read it and understand.

source: The Consortium News

By Robert Parry (A Special Report)
April 25, 2009

In recent years, the Washington political dynamic has often resembled an abusive marriage, in which the bullying husband (the Republicans) slaps the wife and kids around, and the battered wife (the Democrats) makes excuses and hides the ugly bruises from outsiders to keep the family together.

So, when the Republicans are in a position of power, they throw their weight around, break the rules, and taunt: “Whaddya gonna do ‘bout it?”

Then, when the Republicans do the political equivalent of passing out on the couch, the Democrats use their time in control, tiptoeing around, tidying up the house and cringing at every angry grunt from the snoring figure on the couch.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"> This pattern, which now appears to be repeating itself with President Barack Obama’s unwillingness to hold ex-President George W. Bush and his subordinates accountable for a host of crimes including torture, may have had its origins 40 years ago in Campaign 1968 when the Vietnam War was raging.</SPAN>

President Lyndon Johnson felt he was on the verge of achieving a negotiated peace settlement when he learned in late October 1968 that operatives working for Republican presidential candidate Richard Nixon were secretly sabotaging the Paris peace talks.

Nixon, who was getting classified briefings on the talks’ progress, feared that an imminent peace accord might catapult Vice President Hubert Humphrey to victory. So, Nixon’s team sent secret messages to South Vietnamese leaders offering them a better deal if they boycotted Johnson’s talks and helped Nixon to victory, which they agreed to do.

Johnson learned about Nixon’s gambit through wiretaps of the South Vietnamese embassy and he confronted Nixon by phone (only to get an unconvincing denial). <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">At that point, Johnson knew his only hope was to expose Nixon’s maneuver which Johnson called “treason” since it endangered the lives of a half million American soldiers in the war zone.</SPAN>

As a Christian Science Monitor reporter sniffed out the story and sought confirmation, Johnson consulted Secretary of State Dean Rusk and Defense Secretary Clark Clifford about whether to expose Nixon’s ploy right before the election. Both Rusk and Clifford urged Johnson to stay silent.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">In what would become a Democratic refrain in the years ahead, Clifford said in a Nov. 4, 1968, conference call that “Some elements of the story are so shocking in their nature that I’m wondering whether it would be good for the country to disclose the story and then possibly have a certain individual [Nixon] elected. It could cast his whole administration under such doubt that I think it would be inimical to our country’s interests.”</SPAN>

So, Johnson stayed silent “for the good of the country”; Nixon eked out a narrow victory over Humphrey; <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">the Vietnam War continued for another four years with an additional 20,763 U.S. dead and 111,230 wounded and more than a million more Vietnamese killed.</SPAN>

Over the years, as bits and pieces of this story have dribbled out – including confirmation from audiotapes released by the LBJ Library in December 2008 – <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">the Democrats and the mainstream news media have never made much out of Nixon’s deadly treachery.</SPAN> [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Significance of Nixon’s Treason.”]

The Watergate Exception

The one exception to this pattern of the Democrats’ “battered wife syndrome” may have been the Watergate case in which Nixon sought to secure his second term, in part, by spying on his political rivals, including putting bugs on phones at the Democratic National Committee.

When Nixon’s team was caught <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">in a second break-in</SPAN> – trying to add more bugs – the scandal erupted.

Even then, however, <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">key Democrats, such as Democratic National Chairman Robert Strauss, tried to shut down the Watergate investigation as it was expanding early in Nixon’s second term. Strauss argued that the inquiries would hurt the country, but enough other Democrats and an energized Washington press corps overcame the resistance.</SPAN> [For details, see Robert Parry’s Secrecy & Privilege.]

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">With Nixon’s Watergate-compelled resignation in August 1974, the Republicans were at a crossroads.</SPAN> In one direction, they could start playing by the rules and seek to be a responsible political party. Or they could internalize Nixon’s pugnacious style and build an infrastructure to punish anyone who tried to hold them accountable in the future.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Essentially, the Republicans picked option two.</SPAN> Under the guidance of Nixon’s Treasury Secretary William Simon, <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">right-wing foundations collaborated to build a powerful new infrastructure, pooling resources to finance right-wing publications, think tanks and anti-journalism attack groups. As this infrastructure took shape in the late 1970s,</SPAN> it imbued the Republicans with more confidence.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">So, before Election 1980, the Republican campaign – bolstered by former CIA operatives loyal to former CIA Director George H.W. Bush</SPAN> – resorted to Nixon-style tactics in exploiting President Jimmy Carter’s failure to free 52 American hostages then held in Iran.

The evidence is now overwhelming that Republican operatives, including campaign chief Bill Casey and some of his close associates, had back-channel contacts with Iran’s Islamic regime and other foreign governments to confound Carter’s hostage negotiations. Though much of this evidence has seeped out over the past 29 years, some was known in real time.

For instance, Iran’s acting foreign minister Sadegh Ghotbzadeh told Agence France Press on Sept. 6, 1980, that he knew that Republican candidate Ronald Reagan was “trying to block a solution” to the hostage impasse.

Senior Carter administration officials, such as National Security Council aide Gary Sick, also were hearing rumors about Republican interference, and President Carter concluded that Israel’s hard-line Likud leaders had “cast their lot with Reagan,” according to notes I found of a congressional task force interview with Carter a dozen years later.

Carter traced the Israeli opposition to him to a “lingering concern [among] Jewish leaders that I was too friendly with Arabs.”

Israel already had begun playing a key middleman role in delivering secret military shipments to Iran, as Carter knew. But – again for “the good of the country” – Carter and his White House kept silent.

Since the first anniversary of the hostage crisis coincidentally fell on Election Day 1980, Reagan benefited from the voters' anger over the national humiliation and scored a resounding victory. [For more details on the 1980 “October Surprise” case, see Parry’s Secrecy & Privilege.]

GOP’s Growing Confidence

Though much of the public saw Reagan as a tough guy who had frightened the Iranians into surrendering the hostages on Inauguration Day 1981, the behind-the-scenes reality was different.

In secret, the Reagan administration winked at Israeli weapons shipments to Iran in the first half of 1981, what appeared to be a payoff for Iran’s cooperation in sabotaging Carter. Nicholas Veliotes, who was then assistant secretary of state, told a PBS interviewer that he saw those secret shipments as an outgrowth of the covert Republican-Iranian contacts from the campaign.

Veliotes added that those early shipments then became the “germs” of the later Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">But the Republicans seemed to have little to fear from exposure. Their media infrastructure was rapidly expanding – for instance, the right-wing Washington Times opened in 1982</SPAN> – and America’s Left didn’t see the need to counter this growing media power on the Right.

The right-wing attack groups also had success targeting mainstream journalists who dug up information that didn’t fit with Reagan's propaganda themes – the likes of the New York Times Raymond Bonner, whose brave reporting about right-wing death squads in Central America led to his recall from the region and his resignation from the Times.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">This new right-wing muscle, combined with Ronald Reagan’s political popularity,</SPAN> made Democrats and mainstream journalists evermore hesitant to pursue negative stories about Republican policies, including evidence that Reagan’s favorite “freedom fighters,” the Nicaraguan contras, were dabbling in cocaine trafficking and that an illegal contra-aid operation was set up inside the White House.

In mid-1986, when my Associated Press colleague Brian Barger and I put together a story citing two dozen sources about the work of NSC official Oliver North, congressional Democrats were hesitant to follow up on the disclosures.

Finally in August 1986, the House Intelligence Committee, then chaired by <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Democrat Lee Hamilton</SPAN> and including Republican Rep. Dick Cheney, met with North and other White House officials in the Situation Room and were told that the AP story was untrue. <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">With no further investigation, the Democratic-led committee accepted the word of North and his superiors.</SPAN>

Lucky Exposure

It was only an unlikely occurrence on Oct. 5, 1986, the shooting down of one of North’s supply planes over Nicaragua and a confession by the one survivor, Eugene Hasenfus, that put the House Intelligence Committee’s gullibility into focus.

The plane shoot-down – and disclosures from the Middle East about secret U.S. arms sales to Iran – forced the Iran-Contra scandal into public view. The congressional Democrats responded by authorizing a joint House-Senate investigation, with Hamilton as one of the mild-mannered co-chairs and Cheney again leading the GOP’s tough-guy defense.

While the Republicans worked to undermine the investigation, the Democrats looked for a bipartisan solution that would avoid a messy confrontation with President Reagan and Vice President Bush. That solution was to put most of the blame on North and a few of his superiors, such as NSC adviser John Poindexter and the then-deceased CIA Director Bill Casey.

The congressional investigation also made a hasty decision, supported by Hamilton and the Republicans but opposed by most Democrats, to give limited immunity to secure the testimony of North.

Hamilton agreed to this immunity without knowing what North would say. Rather than show any contrition, North used his immunized testimony to rally Republicans and other Americans in support of Reagan’s aggressive, above-the-law tactics.

The immunity also crippled later attempts by special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh to hold North and Poindexter accountable under the law. Though Walsh won convictions against the pair in federal court, the judgments were overturned by right-wing judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals citing the immunity granted by Congress.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">By the early 1990s, the pattern was set. Whenever new evidence emerged of Republican wrongdoing – such as disclosures about contra-drug trafficking, secret military support for Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and those early Republican-Iran contacts of 1980 – the Republicans would lash out in fury and the Democrats would try to calm things down.</SPAN>

Lee Hamilton became the Republicans’ favorite Democratic investigator because he exemplified this approach of conducting “bipartisan” investigations, rather than aggressively pursuing the facts wherever they might lead. While in position to seek the truth, Hamilton ignored the contra-drug scandal and swept the Iraq-gate and October Surprise issues under a very lumpy rug.

In 1992, I interviewed Spencer Oliver, a Democratic staffer whose phone at the Watergate building had been bugged by Nixon’s operatives 20 years earlier. Since then, Oliver had served as the chief counsel on the House Foreign Affairs Committee and had observed this pattern of Republican abuses and Democratic excuses.

Oliver said: “<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">What [the Republicans] learned from Watergate was not ‘don’t do it,’ but ‘cover it up more effectively.’</SPAN> They have learned that they have to frustrate congressional oversight and press scrutiny in a way that will avoid another major scandal.”

The Clinton Opportunity

The final chance for exposing the Republican crimes of the 1980s fell to Bill Clinton after he defeated President George H.W. Bush in 1992.

Before leaving office, however, Bush-41 torpedoed the ongoing Iran-Contra criminal investigation by issuing six pardons, including one to former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger whose cover-up trial was set to begin in early 1993.

Special prosecutor Walsh – a lifelong Republican albeit from the old Eisenhower wing of the party – denounced the pardons as another obstruction of justice. "George Bush's misuse of the pardon power made the cover-up complete," Walsh later wrote in his book Firewall.

However, the Iran-Contra investigation was not yet dead. Indeed, Walsh was considering empanelling a new grand jury. Walsh also had come to suspect that the origins of the scandal traced back to the October Surprise of 1980, with his investigators questioning former CIA officer Donald Gregg about his alleged role in that prequel to Iran-Contra.

The new Democratic President could have helped Walsh by declassifying key documents that the Reagan-Bush-41 team had withheld from various investigations. <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">But Clinton followed advice from Hamilton</SPAN> and other senior Democrats who feared stirring partisan anger among Republicans.

Later, in a May 1994 conversation with documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, Clinton explained that he had opposed pursuing these Republican scandals because, according to Sender, <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">“he was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships. …</SPAN>

“It seemed even at the time terribly naïve that these same Republicans were going to work with him if he backed off on congressional hearings or possible independent prosecutor investigations.” [See Parry’s Secrecy & Privilege.]

No Reciprocity

But the Democrats – like the battered wife who keeps hoping her abusive husband will change – found a different reality as the decade played out.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00>Rather than thanking Clinton, the Republicans bullied him with endless investigations about his family finances, the ethics of his appointees – and his personal morality, ultimately impeaching him in 1998 for lying about a sexual affair (though he survived the Senate trial in 1999).</SPAN>

After the impeachment battle, the Republicans – joined by both the right-wing and mainstream news media – kept battering Clinton and his heir apparent, Vice President Al Gore, who was mocked for his choice of clothing and denounced for his supposed exaggerations.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Though Gore still managed to win the popular vote in Election 2000 and apparently would have prevailed if all legally cast votes had been counted in Florida, the Republicans made clear that wasn’t going to happen, even dispatching rioters from Washington to disrupt a recount in Miami.</SPAN>

George W. Bush’s bullying victory – which was finalized by five Republican partisans on the U.S. Supreme Court – was met with polite acceptance by the Democrats who again seemed to hope for the best from the newly empowered Republicans. [For details on Election 2000, see our book, Neck Deep.]

Instead, after the 9/11 attacks, Bush-43 grabbed unprecedented powers; he authorized torture and warrantless wiretaps; he pressured Democrats into accepting an unprovoked war in Iraq; and he sought to damage his critics, such as former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Now, after eight destructive years, the Democrats have again gained control of the White House and Congress, but they seem intent on once more not provoking the Republicans, rather than holding them accountable.</SPAN>

Though President Barack Obama has released some of the key documents underpinning Bush-43’s actions, <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">he opposes any formal commission of inquiry and has discouraged any prosecutions for violations of federal law. Obama has said he wants “to look forward as opposed to looking backward.”</SPAN>

In dismissing the idea of a “truth and reconciliation commission,” Obama also recognizes that the Republicans would show no remorse for the Bush administration’s actions; that they would insist that there is nothing to “reconcile”; and that they would stay on the attack, pummeling the Democrats as weak, overly sympathetic to terrorists, and endangering national security.

On Thursday, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs admitted as much, saying that Obama rejected the idea of a bipartisan “truth commission” because it was apparent that there was no feasible way to get the Republicans to be bipartisan.

“The President determined the concept didn’t seem altogether workable in this case,” Gibbs said, citing the partisan atmosphere that already has surrounded the torture issue. “The last few days might be evidence of why something like this might just become a political back and forth.”

In other words, the Republicans are rousing themselves from the couch and getting angry, while the Democrats are prancing about, hands out front, trying to calm things down and avoid a confrontation.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">The Democrats hope against hope that if they tolerate the latest Republican outrages maybe there will be some reciprocity, maybe there will be some GOP votes on Democratic policy initiatives.</SPAN>

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"> But there’s no logical reason to think so. That isn’t how the Republicans and their right-wing media allies do things; they simply get angrier because belligerence has worked so well for so long.</SPAN>

On the other hand, Democratic wishful thinking is the essence of this political “battered wife syndrome,” dreaming about a behavioral transformation when all the evidence – and four decades of experience – tell you that the bullying husband isn’t going to change.
 
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Regarding this powellesque article. Help me out. I'm multi-tasking trying to write a brief, duck in here to see whats going on and eating a wing box with a Pepsi. I would appreciate it if you would comment on what your viewpoint is or what point(s) you are trying to get across. It's quite obvious you and I do not view the world in the same way. Hoping that I just read it and come to the same conclusion you have is remote at best and most likely an exercise in futility. BTW I have scanned the highlighted areas and formed an initial impression but will check my initial targeting volley until I can get a better idea on what your getting at.
 
Regarding this powellesque article. Help me out. I'm multi-tasking trying to write a brief, duck in here to see whats going on and eating a wing box with a Pepsi. I would appreciate it if you would comment on what your viewpoint is or what point(s) you are trying to get across. It's quite obvious you and I do not view the world in the same way. Hoping that I just read it and come to the same conclusion you have is remote at best and most likely an exercise in futility. BTW I have scanned the highlighted areas and formed an initial impression but will check my initial targeting volley until I can get a better idea on what your getting at.

Eating healthy I see. Now I get it. You read only partially. I should have determined this when you labeled me a "purist." I have noticed one of the bullet points that those who claim conservatism is that they try and disarm their opponents by defining them. I guess this gives them easier targets rather than debating specifics. Read the entire article.
 
Eating healthy I see. Now I get it. You read only partially. I should have determined this when you labeled me a "purist." I have noticed one of the bullet points that those who claim conservatism is that they try and disarm their opponents by defining them. I guess this gives them easier targets rather than debating specifics. Read the entire article.

Are you gonna profer a frame of reference for the article you posted or are you gonna continue this beating around the bush you do? Seriously Bro, I'll read the whole damn thing if I know why I'm reading it. For me to read it just becuse you say so ain't gonna happen. So what's up? Do you wanna get into a dialogue or not? As far as the purist comment I made. I based that on you consistently taking on a left of center position when you're interacting with other posters. Now I've noticed when you're pressed on those positions you quickly feign indignation and start throwing out right winger comments. Then you go off on wild tangents totally unrelated to the original conversation.


I'm not heated or anything but this has to be said again. Do you want to get into a dialoge? If yes then gve us something to grasp onto when you post an article so other potential posters will know what you're getting at.
 
Are you gonna profer a frame of reference for the article you posted or are you gonna continue this beating around the bush you do? Seriously Bro, I'll read the whole damn thing if I know why I'm reading it. For me to read it just becuse you say so ain't gonna happen. So what's up? Do you wanna get into a dialogue or not? As far as the purist comment I made. I based that on you consistently taking on a left of center position when you're interacting with other posters. Now I've noticed when you're pressed on those positions you quickly feign indignation and start throwing out right winger comments. Then you go off on wild tangents totally unrelated to the original conversation.


I'm not heated or anything but this has to be said again. Do you want to get into a dialoge? If yes then gve us something to grasp onto when you post an article so other potential posters will know what you're getting at.

You think I'm ashamed of my views? I take the correct side not the popular side. Read the post and try and defend 50 years of corruption.
 
You think I'm ashamed of my views? I take the correct side not the popular side. Read the post and try and defend 50 years of corruption.


Do you realy think I'm going to defend Republicans. I'll clue you in on something. I'm not a Republican. Never have been, never will be. Also note I'm not a Democrat. Never have been never will be.

Independent thought followed by independent action is my standard.

No, I don't think you're ashamed of your views and give props that you believe your positions are correct. You make valid commentary here thoughtone. Stick to your beliefs bro, you got what it takes to be an effective advocate of your viewpoint. Staying on point and not being so quick to throw out ad hominem attacks would greatly improve your position. Also be wary of when others hurl Ad hominem attacks at you. It's usually diversionary and an effort to throw up a smoke screen to hide a fatal flaw in their position. Ignore it, try to find the flaw then attack it.

Peace
 
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