the DEATH of NBA DEFENSE

cranrab

Star
BGOL Investor
on BGOL, several of the fam are displaying their youth and/or ignorance by suggesting that the current NBA is superior in quality than in years past.

here is a piece written by fakers shill roland lazenby titled the DEATH OF DEFENSE. the author quotes coach winter (who has coached michael jordan and tobe), jerry west and joe dumars in writing the piece.

"I love Dwyane Wade," Winter told me. "All-around, he's probably the best guard in the league. Individually, he's not as good as Kobe, as far as quickness and skills, etc. But I've never seen a player score the way he does, with such efficiency."

Winter went on to point out that players such as Wade and Bryant have a distinct advantage under the NBA's new rules interpretations that have officials whistling touch fouls on the perimeter. :puke:

Winter's criticism prompted me to write another article for LIndy's called "The Death of Defense?"

Here's the intro to that story, which involves a discussion of the new way officials are now calling the game.

THE DEATH OF DEFENSE

It remains one of the enduring images of NBA lore—Joe Dumars guarding a determined young Michael Jordan in the 1990 Eastern Conference playoffs.
Dumars of the “Bad Boy” Detroit Pistons, the league’s two-time defending champs, looked like a gaucho corralling the ultimate toro, his feet moving furiously (maybe the best defensive slide in the history of the game), one forearm firmly barred into Jordan to keep contact, the other bent arm thrust into the air, giving Dumars his only hope of keeping his balance while trying to ride the Jordan whirlwind.

Jerry West watched the performance and remarked privately that most people considered Isiah Thomas the Pistons’ superstar, but West pointed out that it was Dumars who was the supreme talent.

Why?

Well, West said, both Thomas and Dumars could push the envelope offensively, “but Joe’s defense sets him apart.”

Just how good was that defense?

It left a supremely disappointed Jordan sobbing at the back of the team bus when the series was over (it’s also probably the only NBA defense ever to spawn a best-selling book: Sam Smith’s ‘The Jordan Rules’).

Indeed, it was a formative moment in pro basketball history because it brought Jordan the ultimate challenge and propelled him toward a greatness that fascinated a global audience. Whether they liked pro basketball or not, people felt compelled to watch “His Airness” grow up against the Pistons’ physical challenge.

“I think that ‘Jordan Rules’ defense, as much as anything else, played a part in the making of Michael Jordan,” said Tex Winter, who was an assistant coach for that Chicago team. The 1990 loss forced Jordan and the Bulls to find an answer to Detroit’s muscle.

“Those Jordan Rules were murder,” Winter explained. “The fact that we could win the next year even though they were playing that defense says everything about Jordan as a competitor. Any lesser player would have folded his tent.”

Jordan had to dig deeper to respond to the Pistons, and his effort pushed his Bulls to six championships over the next eight seasons.

The unfortunate footnote to this legacy is that under an interpretation of the rules adopted by the NBA last season, if Dumars were playing today he would not be allowed to guard Jordan so physically, or perhaps even guard him at all.

Today Dumars is the chief basketball executive of the team he once led as a player. He’s an honest man, which means he chooses his words carefully.
Asked in July if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, then offered a long pause before replying, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”

If you're so inclined, pick up a copy of Lindy's and join the debate over the NBA's decision to change its foul rules interpretations. That decision made a dramatic impact on the game and perhaps even decided the league championship last June.

"I think it hurts the game," Winter said of the changes. "It's pretty hard to guard someone on the outside — especially a player with a lot of quickness — if you can't even touch them
."
 
back in the time machine

this from THE SPORTING NEWS feb 2001:

Change is inevitable, but who will reap the rewards? - basketball rule changes

Sean Stewart
In case you haven't heard, there is something wrong with the NBA. But determining what that "something" is is as difficult to figure out as logarithms.

There is always the Michael Jordan factor, the belief that M.J.'s departure has given the NBA a hangover it just can't shake. While the lack of Jordan is somewhat problematic on the court, it is even more so on Madison Avenue, where the NBA wishes somebody--anybody--would be like Mike.

But finding the next pitchman doesn't address the problems with the game, including (but not limited to) overzealous whistle blowers and a lack of scoring.

So what should be changed? Last weekend at the All-Star Game I put that question to some of the game's stars, the ones who, after any rules changes, most dramatically will affect how the game is played.

Hands on

At times, when you are watching a game, it seems a player runs the risk of a whistle if he breathes on an opponent. Often, a quick whistle can halt what's supposed to be a fluid game.

Portland's Rasheed Wallace, who racks up fouls and technicals like The Sopranos racks up Emmy nominations, says that interruption of play is what concerns him most. "Take away that light-touching hand rule they've got out top," he says. "There would be more of a flow, less stoppage of the game. Being out there at a crucial point of the game and you put your palm on the hand, they're blowing the whistle, and that's stopping the game."

Miami's Anthony Mason agrees. "It's a great game, but I don't think I'd be so nitpicky with the hand checking and stuff like that. I'd probably go back to where people are allowed to play defense."

But Orlando's Tracy McGrady had a different take on the hand-check issue. McGrady sees the current rules on hand checking as a plus. :rolleyes:

"Some people would like them to change the hand-check rule, but that does help the guys who are capable of getting to the basket, the guys who can dribble," McGrady says. "That helps a guy like me." :rolleyes:

What about me?

Some players had more specific adjustments in mind. Minnesota's Kevin Garnett and Atlanta's Dikembe Mutombo proposed changes that were laced with both humor and some common sense.

"I'd let me do my finger wave after I block a shot," Mutombo says. "Let me wave my finger and not fine me thousands of dollars. We need to entertain our fans."

Garnett, who reigns as both the NBA's king of on-court enthusiasm and one of the league's best players, seeks a simple adjustment.

"I would change goaltending," Garnett says. "I have so many blocked shots, man, they call it goaltending every time I block a shot."

Who needs change?

Still, some players think the game is fine the way it is. Milwaukee's Ray Allen for one, thinks the game doesn't need any tinkering offensively.

"My team is scoring over 100 points a night so I don't know how much more open you want the game to be," Allen says. "In days past, you had teams scoring 120-130 points (a game), but I can't see what I'd do differently on a regular basis. We're doing fine. I don't know what the perception of the league is, but I think it just goes down to what players you have on your team."

While having one scorer like Allen is a luxury for most teams, the Bucks have two other players--Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell--capable of dropping 30 points on an opponent.

"We just have to keep doing what we are doing, keep playing hard and keep showing everybody that we do work hard on our games and we do enjoy playing the game," he says.

Coach's corner

Like the Bucks, Rick Adelman's Kings don't struggle to make the scoreboard turn to triple digits on most nights. Still, Adelman understands that getting a handle on what needs to be changed can be difficult.

"It's a hard question. Everyone has their opinion," Adelman says. "I think you have to do something to get more ball movement in the game. Whether that's putting a time frame on how long a guy can have the ball ...

"I think the 3-point line is a real detriment because it encourages isolation and post-up. You double, and you're going to give up a 3. Anything that can create movement can help. You have to take the ball out of one guy's hand."

Zoning out

While opinions differ on most suggestions to change the game, one idea meets a unified voice--the idea of bringing the zone defense to the NBA. At first glance, the idea of zones in the NBA is problematic. At second glance, it's ludicrous. If the league thinks packing in a zone is going to solve its offensive problems, then league officials are nuttier than a Payday candy bar.

"I don't see where the zone is going to create movement," Adelman says. "I think something needs to be done but you have to be careful to not make it so radical. It has to be tried in exhibition but sometimes people are in a panic to change
."
 
OVER A YEAR AGO, a salt lake city, utah columnist wondered why SCORING IN GENERAL WAS RISING. here is what he found:

NBA is experiencing explosion of scoring

Tim Buckley Deseret Morning News

HOUSTON -- Seven of the 24 participants in tonight's NBA All- Star Game have scored 30 or more points against the Jazz this season. Two of them, Cleveland's LeBron James and Philadelphia's Allen Iverson, dropped 51 and 46, respectively.

Heck, even five non-All-Stars have put up 30 or more against Utah in 2005-06. And it's not just the Jazz on the receiving end of points pouring in.

Forty-plus-point games have become such a common occurrence in the NBA, only a truly incredible performance -- fellow All-Star Kobe Bryant's 81 against Toronto last Jan. 22, for instance -- makes one stop and wonder if any given evening's high-scorer total is not a typo.

In fact, the league's top three scorers at the All-Star break this season -- Bryant (35.0), Iverson (33.1) and James (31.2) -- are averaging more than 30 points per game.

Just a few other All-Star scoring accomplishments this season:

New Jersey's Vince Carter had 51 against his old Toronto team a couple nights before Christmas;

Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal became just the third Pacer ever to score 50-plus when he had 55 against Milwaukee on January 4;

Detroit's Chauncey Billups and Toronto's Chris Bosh both had career-highs of 37 before the first week of January was done.

What in the name of Wilt Chamberlain is going on here?

Shaquille O'Neal -- who has been chosen for 13 straight All-Star Games, a consecutive selection streak topped only by retired Jazz star Karl Malone and NBA legend Jerry West -- has a hunch.

"It's probably a mixture of everything -- the hand-check rules, guys hitting shots. I think guys are getting a lot more freedom with the ball," the former Los Angeles Laker and current Miami Heat center said. "I'm sure that all those guys scoring all those points are guys that always have the ball.

"When guys always have the ball, and are given the green light to do what they want to do," added O'Neal, who averaged less than 30 (29.7) when he led the league in scoring en route to winning MVP honors for the 1999-2000 season, "they're going to shoot 20 times, shoot 40 times, shoot 50 times."

Well, most are.

When Bryant scored his 81 on 28-of-46 shooting from the field, second only to Chamberlain's fabled 100-point game for Philadelphia in 1962, eyebrows were raised.

Nearly a full month later, many still are -- some in continued wide-eyed disbelief, others with eyes rolling back into heads wondering just how selfish one must be to score so much.

"Eighty-one is 81. Eighty-one is a lot of points," Detroit All- Star Rip Hamilton said when asked Friday about the feat. "When I was home and someone called me and said he got 70 in the fourth quarter and still time left on the clock, I was like 'Give him the ball, let him get 80.' "

A scorer's mentality, if ever there was one.

"He played a fantastic game," whispered O'Neal, whose oft- fractured relationship with Bryant supposedly is on the mend -- but also was a primary reason he left the Lakers. "I actually saw it. He shot the ball well, and he was feeling it. Whenever a player is feeling it, he should go for it. It was a fantastic, historical performance."

In Los Angeles, few would argue, Bryant was simply too egotistical for he and also quite-proud-of-himself O'Neal to coexist any longer than they did.

Asked to identify the most talented player in the game today, Jermaine O'Neal -- who is injured, and will not play tonight -- did not hesitate. "If I had to pick one guy to win a game," he said, "it would be Kobe."

Perhaps more telling is Jermaine O'Neal's answer to the follow- up question "And if you could choose one guy to play with?"

"Steve Nash," he responded, referencing the Phoenix Suns All- Star point and reigning NBA MVP.

It would take a large degree of selfishness, another All-Star who will play against Bryant tonight seemed to suggest, for him to ever score 81.

"That's not my game," James said. "I like to do everything, not just shoot the ball and score. I couldn't see myself scoring that many points in a game."

Bryant, however, could.

In fact, he did.

After doing so, he even has a hunch as to what it would take to score 100 all by himself.

"A lot of shots, and a lot of makes," Bryant said. "High-quality shots. You'd have to get to the free-throw line, as well."

If anyone can, conventional All-Star wisdom seems to go, Bryant might be the guy.

"He's a very driven guy," Miami All-Star Dwyane Wade said. "I think he has fine-tuned his game a little more than probably the previous years, where now his pull-up game is unstoppable."

He can score, in other words, from virtually anywhere on the floor.

With scoring on the rise, that's something more and more All- Stars seemingly can say today -- yet something even Chamberlain could not back in his day
.
 
Don't need to read the pieces because they only say what I've been
saying for years. That good defense gets penalized these days.

The first writer refers to Joe D's defense, well Michael Cooper would
be another whose game would be under tight scrutiny. No more flying
blocks from behind on those guys thinking they have an easy 2 on
a breakaway


I've been at this for years. Everyone should know my solution too. I
have suggested 4 or even 5 referees for the longest time. We
get inundated on how great a ref this old ass Dick Bavetta is, but I
witnessed time and time again how this mofo (called the best ref by
the genuises announcing the games), blows call after call after call...

How many times has an outstanding defensive play has been made,
only to have the offensive player bailed out by a weakassed call and
the guy (usually a flop king like Dirk or Ginobli or the board's hero) on
the foul line shooting free throws.....

Calls like that have a MONUMENTAL affect on the game. And has
affected it negatively for over a decade. My solution of having a
STATIONARY referee under each basket at ALL times would greatly
diminish the weak calls. No longer would old, slow refs have to hustle
just to keep up with thoroughbread athletes. Now the play always
comes to them and they are ALWAYS in position to make the call
without having to rely on something looking like it's an infraction



One other thing: About the first writer quoting Jerry West's comparison
of Thomas and Dumars. I loved Joe D's game. Quite saavy. But in NO
way, shape or form does he come close to Isiah Thomas offensively
on that basketball court. Joe had a sweet jumper. Was a decent point.
But "push the envelope offensively?" Don't think so

On defense, he was smart, talented, etc. But he benefitted alot
from the defensive scheme of the Pistons. When Detroit went with
Salley and Rodman at the 2 and 3 (which was most of the time), they
were damn near impossible to go inside against (ask Worthy). All Joe
did was funnel Jordan into this matrix and let them do their defensive
thing (no coincidence that the Pistions demise came after these two
left town). Alot was made in the press about that "Bad Boy" shit, but
the fact is that as Rodman, Dumars and (especially) Salley went....
so went the Pistons d. Isiah had a little to do with it later too.

But for some reason, probably because of the Bird remark and because
Thomas doesn't go alot to get along like the rest of them "uncles" do,
there is a campaign to diminsh anything and everything Thomas ever
did

Just wanted to add that
 
Great Articles. No one defended Jordan like Dumars..no one..he consistently gave Jordan problems. He was the quiet assasin on that team..and the glue. Even Coach daily said he was his sanity on the court when you consider the sometimes wild behavior of Thomas, Mahorn, Laimbeer, Rodman, Salley..etc...Dumars was a good scorer and excellent defender... I do kind of disagree with Runaway saying that all that Dumars did was funnel Jordan to lanes..he did and the Pistons had great help defense and were very physical with Jordan.. but Dumars was effective because he had some of the best horizontal movement as a defender and was physically strong..he kept Jordan in front of him..and he got UNDER Jordan on shots without fouling him..he just made Jordan uncomfortable in the style in which he played him..Dumars was a SMART player.with great basketball IQ(has also carried over to management).However, saying Dumars was the greater talent over Thomas was a bit much. I know how you feel about Dumars as well Cranrab...and I am probably biased being that I am from Detroit.. but I think that Thomas was the best little player to EVER play the game...by that..i mean when you think of the AI's etc..those small 6-3 and smaller players... Thomas has no equal. Ball handling, shooting, passing... and tenacity and desire to win at all costs.. i dont think he has a rival..best little man to play the game..

I definitely agree with that assessment that the Pistons MADE Jordan. Jordan went from playing on talent to playing with his Head because of the Pistons. He off the ball movement increased, his back to the basket game improved, and this is when he began to work on his fade-away..not to be confused with perfecting.but he began to develop it during this time. He could not longer depend on slashing because the Pistons made him pay for it physically... he had to work on positioning and becoming a much more rounding scoring threat.
 
good articles. The thing about basketball today is that it is becoming less about sport and more about entertainment...
 
Diamels said:
good articles. The thing about basketball today is that it is becoming less about sport and more about entertainment...

Thats how I see it

I will not diminish what Kobe has done
I just am not completely impressed

Have to admire him taking a negative and making it a positive

The team will likely get bounced come playoffs...

why not go crazy scoring?

The rules today make it impossible to play any form of defense.....

I remember in last years playoffs Shaq was ask how he feels about being "legislated out of the game"......He responded by saying the NBA wants 7 footers shooting jump shots from beyond the arch.......

It seems as if the NBA is intent on making the game more "international"......which is the new word for "Less black players". The rules allow slower, weaker players to compete.
 
Coach Tex Winter said:
"I love Dwyane Wade," Winter told me. "All-around, he's probably the best guard in the league. Individually, he's not as good as Kobe, as far as quickness and skills, etc. But I've never seen a player score the way he does, with such efficiency."



Looks like Coach Winter is just hating on a living legend if you ask me :rolleyes:

But seriously, I'd have no problem with the scoring binge if the truck load of fans didnt come out of the woodwork claiming Wobe is the best player in NBA History. Even when he scored 81 points (which I thought was odd that the media was glorifying 2nd place like that :confused: ) People were saying that 81 should be the new record because of today's NBA it would be impossible to score 100 in a game. :hmm:

Well it's now 100% obvious that the NBA is about selling a product, a form of entertainment so to speak, and not about actual basketball anymore. When guys on BGOL (the equivalent of a girl that tries to learn the game from watching sportscenter to impress their boyfriend) start to say things like "There is way more talent now than ever before in the NBA" and "Wobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan" and "Wobe consistently sees double and triple teams whenever he touches the ball and Jordan never got doubled" (My personal favorite :smh: ) It's becoming apparent to me that guys dont know shit about the game.

That is one reason I'm enjoying the NCAA tournament right now. Although my squad is out, I love the atmosphere, how geniune the games are, how guys actually pull together to play as a team, etc. You hardly ever see that in the NBA anymore.

I will say this about the scoring binge, the game against New Orleans was impressive with the 16-29 FGA and 18-18 FTA or so but I havent been impressed with the others because -

1) The lack of team play was letting below average teams keep the game close (when they should have been blowouts)

2) The teams they beat were awful and teams that normally have trouble scoring.

I'm interested to see how the the lakers play Golden State tonight. I'm predicting now that Golden State (a team that has only beaten them 1 time in the past 3 years) will take their 8-27 road record, come into Staples Center and win tonight if they can hit atleast 45% of their FGA because that careless style of play caters right into their hands.

I wonder how the "Greatest Player of all time" will adjust when he sees his FGA per minute output is getting the Warriors out on the break every other possession leading to a bunch of 3 on 2 and 2 on 1 fast break opportunities.
 
eewwll said:
I do kind of disagree with Runaway saying that all that Dumars did was funnel Jordan to lanes..he did and the Pistons had great help defense and were very physical with Jordan.. but Dumars was effective because he had some of the best horizontal movement as a defender and was physically strong..he kept Jordan in front of him..and he got UNDER Jordan on shots without fouling him..he just made Jordan uncomfortable in the style in which he played him..Dumars was a SMART player.with great basketball IQ(has also carried over to management)



I should have said all Dumars had to do instead of all he did. I kind
of over simplified it to make a point. Also left Rick Mahorn's defensive
contribution out as well. Those 4 cats were a mutha when combined
with Isiah's offensive skills



There's another thing contributing to this new defense. That fucking
circle in the 3 second lane is RUINING the game. The offensive foul
is one of the worst calls in the game today. They need to get rid of
that circle and go back to using their judgement. You can literally see
the difference in the charging call on the college level. Even though
college is the birthplace of the flop, it's still called much better. Reason
being that the ref is always behind the play, so how can he possibly
know if a defender is stationary and in position to take a charge when
he is moving himself??

It's like the theory of shooting a gun. You can't hit a moving target
if you are moving yourself (except in the movies)
 
xfactor said:
"Wobe consistently sees double and triple teams whenever he touches the ball and Jordan never got doubled".

there are a FEW solid indicators that a person who does NOT know basketball is simply regurgitating garbage they've heard, but NOT seen.

i added swin cash to the list of moronic talking heads last week when she repeated the bolded words above.

it's a MYTH and simply is NOT true.

for the young ones who may read this and DO NOT ALREADY KNOW:

1) the presence of a second defender who is completing a switch while defending a pick and roll does NOT constitute a double team.

2) a second defender cheating in a penetration lane does NOT constitute a double team.

3) TWO MEN ON THE BALL IS A DOUBLE TEAM.

4) coaches rarely double (much less triple) tobe. in fact, tobe is doubled LESS THAN 25% of the time.

EDIT:

5) a second defender helping the primary defender AFTER tobe's successful dribble penetration does NOT constitute a double team.
 
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cranrab said:
there are a FEW solid indicators that a person who does NOT know basketball is simply regurgitating garbage they've heard, but NOT seen.

i added swin cash to the list of moronic talking heads last week when she repeated the bolded words above.

it's a MYTH and simply is NOT true.

for the young ones who may read this and DO NOT ALREADY KNOW:

1) the presence of a second defender who is completing a switch while defending a pick and roll does NOT constitute a double team.

2) a second defender cheating in a penetration lane does NOT constitute a double team.

3) TWO MEN ON THE BALL IS A DOUBLE TEAM.

4) coaches rarely double (much less triple) tobe. in fact, tobe is doubled LESS THAN 25% of the time.


After reading the dumb shit on the main board I went to insidehoops.com for some sanity.

That's an overstatement however I have read some of the dumbest shit on BBall over there....

The good thing about this is they will flip when they get bounced from the playoffs...2 months without the Kobe drama and people forget about him...

"Jordan didn't face double teams"?.......If somebody would have said that shit in a barber shop they would have gotten slapped.....BY ME.......no better yet I would sell them some Real Estate on Fantasy Island.

Great Articles Cran...again thanks for some sanity.

The difference with MJ is pretty simple: MJ proved himself THEN he got the hype....players today get the hype and never prove themselves...
 
Rollie_Fingaz said:
If the rules werent changed to its present state, the Euros wouldn't eat in this league. :yes:

On the real

They are trying to "blackproof" the game much like the failed "TigerProofing"
 
SpiritualPorn said:
"Jordan didn't face double teams"?.......If somebody would have said that shit in a barber shop they would have gotten slapped.....BY ME.......no better yet I would sell them some Real Estate on Fantasy Island.

.

Man..when I saw that latest post on the main board... I just decided to back out of it....only a kid who hasnt watched much ball would say something so stupid...
 
eewwll said:
Man..when I saw that latest post on the main board... I just decided to back out of it....only a kid who hasnt watched much ball would say something so stupid...

Exactly

It's like that old saying....."If you argue with a fool, very soon you and the fool become indistinguishable.


Must thank you again for the Objectivity ...ANN RAnd from three years ago EWL
 
xfactor said:
I'm interested to see how the the lakers play Golden State tonight. I'm predicting now that Golden State (a team that has only beaten them 1 time in the past 3 years) will take their 8-27 road record, come into Staples Center and win tonight if they can hit atleast 45% of their FGA because that careless style of play caters right into their hands.

I wonder how the "Greatest Player of all time" will adjust when he sees his FGA per minute output is getting the Warriors out on the break every other possession leading to a bunch of 3 on 2 and 2 on 1 fast break opportunities.

Didnt see the game last night but I saw the updates... Looks like Golden State went cold in the 4th quarter but I'm pretty sure if they shot 45% they would have won the game.

Did BGOL's role model adjust after seeing it would be tough to put the Warriors away after putting up 15 FGA in the first qt alone :eek:

Looks like he went 9-27 down the stretch after the hot start. No wonder the 20 point lead decreased all the way to 2.

And dumb MFs on BGOL STILL don't get it.

***EDIT***

Who was trying to check Monta Ellis in the game last night? :confused:

Coach Tex Winter said:
“That was one of the greatest exhibitions I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot of exhibitions,” the 83-year-old Winter said. “That’s what the fans love. (But) I don’t think you can win a championship that way.

I think Coach Winter's quote (after the 81 point game) pretty much sums up what Bryant is about. It's not about winning but putting on a show. I just wish the "fans" wouldnt blame the rest of the squad for the failure their "leader" shows.
 
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xfactor said:
Who was trying to check Monta Ellis in the game last night?

you guessed it. it was funny watching a 2nd year player execute dive cuts for layups and dunks on a "shut down, lock out" defender like the garden weasel.

the SOLE reason the warriors lost that game because of poor defensive rebounding. check the Q4 play by play and see how the fakers got KEY 2nd chance rebounds OFF OF FREE THROWS and controlled the possessions to protect the lead.
 
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