skeptics- don't be a dick
- Thread starter exiledking
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BGOL's plague
thanx...
Interesting talk. Dude seems a bit frustrated though lol
@ 14:00 - 16:13
Bottom line.
yeah, actually he took a long time to say what coulda been summed up, and honestly, doesn't really need to be said.
I actually think it needs to be said, and it's not said enough. It's not even so much about skepticism vs "them" ... he's basically talking about employing empathy as a more effective and productive strategy when communicating. And he's right, it's not our natural default mode.
I'm not sure how to interpret what the speaker was/is trying to say. It almost sound like he's trying to start/promote a skeptic active movement..I understand his reasoning and his "politeness", but in the end doesn't it make you just like "them" when its all said and done? Sure he seems to be applying/teaching his own technique/style/sales pitch if you will...but in the end aren't you just trying to "sale" your way of thinking?
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good shit.
Good stuff. Thanks...
Please count23 or someone else that agrees with him, do share what was so good about it? not being an ass or anything...he seem to basically be saying, be nice and polite and try to understand your "adversary" if you will and understand when your being confronted with different thinking etc how it makes your feel....Did i miss something innovation in what he was saying?
basically... that goes for everybody anyway.
But I posted it, so obviously I enjoyed that basic sentiment.
Tical, I think dude was making a very good general point about effective communication and not just arguing, like he said, "just to score a cheap point, but to win the game". Take it out of the context for skeptics vs the superstitious for a second. He talking about expanding the context in which most of these kinds of arguments are had, beyond the typical "you're a nutcase, I'm right, you're wrong" ...which is basically just ego catering banter at the end of the day.
IMO, this is somewhat related to the concept, Bohm Dialogue
"Participants in the Bohmian form of dialogue "suspend" their beliefs, opinions, impulses and judgements while speaking together, in order to see the movement of the group's thougt process and what their effects may be."
listening again, and I've changed my mind. I agree with Sean69. Dudes very serious about taking the idea of reason based thinking to the "mainstream", and in a manner that isn't percieved to be destructive.
I myself, when I first heard of "skeptism", it was presented in the form of simply not believing in Christianity, but also beyond that. I actually believed in Greek and Roman Gods as a kid, telekenesis, levitation, many superstitions, UFO's, and so on.
I'll tal about the christianity specifically- I first went to Islam, but it didn't take me long to see that it was-- well, just as silly. I considered myself "spiritual" for years, and I finally learned about the concept of DOGMA. So I left all religion, "spirituality", and started studying the things I was so afraid of for so long. It even took me a while to understand that morality stands on it's own, and leaving belief did not entail being moraless.
The end result is not to be free of obligation, or devoid of dreams and fantasy, but maybe to put things in their "proper" place, and enjoy the world as it IS.
I wondr where I'd be had I not been sidetracked in the first place. In some ways I even get mad at my mother for introducing it to me, when I know she was simply doing what she thought was best.
I myself, when I first heard of "skeptism", it was presented in the form of simply not believing in Christianity, but also beyond that. I actually believed in Greek and Roman Gods as a kid, telekenesis, levitation, many superstitions, UFO's, and so on.
I'll tal about the christianity specifically- I first went to Islam, but it didn't take me long to see that it was-- well, just as silly. I considered myself "spiritual" for years, and I finally learned about the concept of DOGMA. So I left all religion, "spirituality", and started studying the things I was so afraid of for so long. It even took me a while to understand that morality stands on it's own, and leaving belief did not entail being moraless.
The end result is not to be free of obligation, or devoid of dreams and fantasy, but maybe to put things in their "proper" place, and enjoy the world as it IS.
I wondr where I'd be had I not been sidetracked in the first place. In some ways I even get mad at my mother for introducing it to me, when I know she was simply doing what she thought was best.
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Exiled, I can completely relate with this. I went through a similar transition, and the part in red sums it all up.
Trying to solve a problem thinking in the same convergent way, 90% of the time the "solve's" the problem but it's rarely a robust solution. So you end up having to do shit over and over. The most successful enterprises use divergent thought process with a diversity of ideas where all perspectives are taken into account...doesn't mean every opinion makes sense, but you keep screening until you solve the problem. And you usually only have to do it once.
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Thanks Exiled and Sean, I completely agree with what the gentlemen was saying and your mutual analysis of it. Unfortunately i think most people are far too egocentrical and other for such "novel"
ideas. I mean just look at the threads on religion, etc Where both of you have posted and debuted...that my friends represent a small microcosm of the much bigger world. The day that people develop/have the mindset for reasoning etc the speaker was alluding too,the day where most problems are approached with "a divergent thought process", "where all perspectives are taken into account" Sadly, as optimistic as i naturally am, i fear we will never see.
Thanks Exiled and Sean, I completely agree with what the gentlemen was saying and your mutual analysis of it. Unfortunately i think most people are far too egocentrical and other for such "novel"
unfortunately I'm inclined to agree with you
unfortunately I'm inclined to agree with you
Funny thing when i was younger i was appalled and couldn't understand fundamentalist system in ancient places like Rome and our modern world, like Cuba...where the powers that be in government and the like believed people had set stations and understanding and that the gravest of responsibilities where to be left to those "chosen" whether by God design, genetics etc. The more I've come to learn about people I'm sad to say the more disappointed i am. How many system of whatever government, business, schools, etc are runned, voted for, sustained,decided etc by people who are well beyond their "station"? whether by lack of intelligence or emotion maturity or whatever compromisation/impediment. The point, I'm not advocating Karl Marx ideas or any thing, but i don't think people can all like ,"dipole moments" align in such away for effective anything and if they do it seems like it's only for a moment and in face of some tragedy.
You have people that will disagree just for the hell of it! could be the greatest idea in the world! they don't care disagree just to disagree for their perspective agendas and that is a critical point that the speaker and any with his kinds of ideas seem to miss, don't believe me...read some of the religious threads, watch and listen to politics.
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Thanks Exiled and Sean, I completely agree with what the gentlemen was saying and your mutual analysis of it. Unfortunately i think most people are far too egocentrical and other for such "novel"
Perhaps. But that shouldn't stop people from trying. I doubt that a Utopia or anything like it will ever be achieved and frankly I don't even think it's the most stable kind of society. Even in biological ecosystems, there has to be some level of asymmetry in order for the system to remain dynamical and evolve...the latter two properties, flow and increasing (global) entropy respectively, being prerequisites of our universe as we know it. But on a deeper level, what we might perceive as random, unfair or unbalanced, might in fact be "enfolded" order, just manifested as random, but really just chaos.unfortunately I'm inclined to agree with you
When it comes to people and societies Sean, this is amongst the saddest things i could ever hope to be the case.Because it says to me 2 things.
1) Apparent Chaos is the natural order of "all" things not only the pure sciences, but people and societies.
2) Just like we can't stop Chaos in the pure sciences..societies/people no matter what are doomed to be in a Chaotic State.
And only a very few of us can and will see the "enfolded order" of that.
Agree with that as well, esp the bolded.
A drama free world would be boring as fuck. Prolly why when talk about a heaven with eternal 'conflict free' bliss, I just think that it's just another version of hell.