RIC FLAIR vs. HULK HOGAN... Who was the GOAT?

GOAT... Nature Boy vs. Hulk Hogan

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TJervey

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After seeing this thread, http://www.bgol.us/board/showthread.php?t=605639&highlight=flair , had me thinking...

Who was the GOAT wrestler between the two. I was tempted to say Hulk Hogan, but he benefited from advanced technology, internet, TV, which helped him reach a broader audience, but when I saw the video Clip of Nature Boy, it brought back a LOT of memories...

Just thinking...

What rates the highest...

Four Horsemen vs. New World Order - in terms of notoriety
Hulkamania vs. Nature Boy - Hype vs. Smooth Swagger
To be the Man, you got to beat the man vs. What you gonna do, when Hulkamania rains down on you? (sp)

IMO, as far as childhood memories and influence, I would go with Nature Boy by a slim margin...

Thoughts?
 
Flair was better in the ring and on the mic while Hogan is the biggest star in the history of the business.
Their relationship is funny. They were casual acquaintances, then non so friendly rivals, and now good friends who call each other "the greatest of all time".
 
Flair stole his whole style from Buddy Rogers and Hogan from Superstar Billy Graham. That being said, Hogan made pro wrestling the force it is today. It HAS to be Hogan.
 
WOOOOOO! It's not even close in my opinion. The biggest wrestler of all time is Hogan Period. The greatest is Flair. Hogan had the machine behind him. VINCE. That meant action figures, Saturday morning cartoons, 3 or four shows on TV every week and Movies. Hard to compete with that. Flair did it all with a ring and a microphone and the Four Horseman carried the company rather than the other way around. The fact that you could even make a poll shows how great Flair was.
 
richlove said:
WOOOOOO! It's not even close in my opinion. The biggest wrestler of all time is Hogan Period. The greatest is Flair. Hogan had the machine behind him. VINCE. That meant action figures, Saturday morning cartoons, 3 or four shows on TV every week and Movies. Hard to compete with that. Flair did it all with a ring and a microphone and the Four Horseman carried the company rather than the other way around. The fact that you could even make a poll shows how great Flair was.
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No doubt... Mid-South, Mid-Atlantic, WCW, Ric Flair was the center of their universe... All of the suffered and eventually folded once he left... Hogan was a product of WWF(E), he was their biggest star, but he was made by them, Ric made the organizations...
 
Upgrade Dave said:
Yep. Dude was a hip-hop superstar before there was such a thing.
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Flair had the biggest influence on most wrestlers, but with out Hogan we wouldn't even be talking about Flair, Cena, HHH, Orton, ect... right now.

A better question would be Vince McMahon or Hulk Hogan: Who made the business what it is today.
 
TJervey said:
No doubt... Mid-South, Mid-Atlantic, WCW, Ric Flair was the center of their universe... All of the suffered and eventually folded once he left... Hogan was a product of WWF(E), he was their biggest star, but he was made by them, Ric made the organizations...
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Add World Class in Texas to that list.

hardcore_legend said:
Flair had the biggest influence on most wrestlers, but with out Hogan we wouldn't even be talking about Flair, Cena, HHH, Orton, ect... right now.

A better question would be Vince McMahon or Hulk Hogan: Who made the business what it is today.
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I disagree. HHH modeled much of his style on Flair and Harley Race and he and Flair mentored Orton, a third generation star. Pro wrestling was a big business before Vince McMahon use Hogan to go national and would have remained so.

Between Vince and Hogan, it's Vince. Hogan was the tool, Vince was the mind. His genius is vastly overstated but his boldness is on a level of it's own.
 
their intangibles cancel each other out in my opinion and but I go with Hogan based on head to head wins in wwf and wcw..but its all left up to perspective..:confused::confused:
 
Upgrade Dave said:
Add World Class in Texas to that list.



I disagree. HHH modeled much of his style on Flair and Harley Race and he and Flair mentored Orton, a third generation star. Pro wrestling was a big business before Vince McMahon use Hogan to go national and would have remained so.

Between Vince and Hogan, it's Vince. Hogan was the tool, Vince was the mind. His genius is vastly overstated but his boldness is on a level of it's own.
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What i meant was that wrestling may not even be seen on TV, it might just be a niche market.

Pro Wrestling would not have been as mainstream as it is today with out Hogan. Hogan(and Vince) showed people that Wrestling to become a multi-billion dollar business.

All wrestling fans know Flair but the world knows Hogan.
 
hardcore_legend said:
What i meant was that wrestling may not even be seen on TV, it might just be a niche market.

Pro Wrestling would not have been as mainstream as it is today with out Hogan. Hogan(and Vince) showed people that Wrestling to become a multi-billion dollar business.

All wrestling fans know Flair but the world knows Hogan.
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C/S Hogan wins based on that fact alone!!
 
hardcore_legend said:
What i meant was that wrestling may not even be seen on TV, it might just be a niche market.

Pro Wrestling would not have been as mainstream as it is today with out Hogan. Hogan(and Vince) showed people that Wrestling to become a multi-billion dollar business.

All wrestling fans know Flair but the world knows Hogan.
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The problem with that thinking is that wrestling in 2011 is still a niche market. The highest rated show is Monday Night Raw and it draws in the high 3s, low 4s at best. That's great cable numbers but would get it canceled on network tv.
Vince was going to make his move with or without Hulk Hogan. The mainstreaming of wrestling belongs more to McMahon than Hogan. He was the vehicle but McMahon was driving.
Wrestling was on tv before Hulk and that wouldn't have changed. TBS became a "superstation" based on the Atlanta Braves and Georgia/World Championship Wrestling. Memphis was drawing incredible ratings well into the 90s. Ric Flair drew 45k in Dallas to see him wrestle Kerry Von Erich in May of 84, 30k in Dallas to see him wrestle Kevin Von Erich in May of 85 and another 30k to see him wrestle Nikita Koloff in July 85 in Charlotte. All of this without the massive New York based machine and media satutation Hulk had behind him.
To put it plainly, you're overstating the influence of Hulk Hogan. Pro wrestling drew big crowds and big ratings long before Hulk Hogan beat the Iron Sheik in 84.
 
stizz3000 said:
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/thread
 
No one ever, EVER, posts Hogan promos or cites any great Hogan matches (though he's had a few). Hogan is the biggest name but Flair's the greatest wrestler.
 
This is a great discussion, but my vote goes to Ric Flair. And it isn't even close.

The biggest difference here is that as it was said in earlier posts, Vince created the idea of Hulkamania and Hogan was the one along for the ride. Before that, Hulk was actually a heel much like his Thunderlips cameo in the Rocky movie...

Ric Flair was, as they say, is about as "custom made" as you could get. He was the man for decades, stating off before Hogan's WM3 match with Andre the Giant. The flag bearer for Mid-South/NWA/WCW wrestling, performing for big crowds at "small" cities and big ones nationwide, and being the teacher/mentor for a lot of wrestlers out there now and during the mid 90s...

Flair has had many memorable matches against the likes of Steamboat, Savage, Vader, Michaels, Sting, and probably more than that...Hogan? Well there may be a few, but not in comparison to Flair...Look at the matches Flair had with Sting compared to Hogan's match with Sting at that Starrcade...
 
Don't get me wrong, I was a huge Flair fan.
But if what everyone says is true, Hogan's in ring skills should have made him a jobber and Flair should be the huge multi-media star.
IMO it is bigger than the matches.

When Flair went to the WWF he was gone in a year and when Hogan went to WCW he was part of the second biggest boom pro wrestling had ever seen.

Flair doesn't have that mainstream appeal that Hogan has, he even said it himself.

I still think the Vince/Hogan debate is like the Chicken or the Egg.

Vince has not "created" another Hulk Hogan in all this time.

Sure, Cena, Rock, and Austin are/were huge but no where near Hogan in his prime.

Even today when the average person thinks Pro Wrestling they think Hogan.
 
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hardcore_legend said:
Don't get me wrong, I was a huge Flair fan.
But if what everyone says is true, Hogan's in ring skills should have made him a jobber and Flair should be the huge multi-media star.
IMO it is bigger than the matches.
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Agreed. I've said Hogan is the biggest name, that's a given. But that doesn't make him "The Greatest". Mike Tyson is a bigger name than Evander Holyfield but Holyfield places much higher on the "GOAT" list, pound for pound and heavyweight.

When Flair went to the WWF he was gone in a year and when Hogan went to WCW he was part of the second biggest boom pro wrestling had ever seen.
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Apples and oranges. Flair went to WWF as an older guy going to the biggest company in America. In fact, they were in an attendance slump until Flair got there and that was with Hogan, Warrior, and a young Undertaker there.
Hogan going to WCW gave rise to the potential of a bunch of dream matches and attracted a lot of attention. That was already sliding when Flair revived WCW again with his feud with Savage.

Flair doesn't have that mainstream appeal that Hogan has, he even said it himself.
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No dispute there.

I still think the Vince/Hogan debate is like the Chicken or the Egg.

Vince has not "created" another Hulk Hogan in all this time.

Sure, Cena, Rock, and Austin are/were huge but no where near Hogan in his prime.

Even today when the average person thinks Pro Wrestling they think Hogan.
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Lost me there. Austin and Rock are every bit as big as Hulk Hogan for their era. His advantage is he came in a day when there weren't 300 cable channels and 7 broadcast networks. Even with that, Steve Austin and Rock get plenty of mainstream pub with the Rock being a legit Hollywood star.
 
I was talking to one of my Dude's at work who used to be a wrestling fanatic back in the day, and he put this in a really great prospective. It's hard to gauge impact because Ric was on the downside of his career and was much older than Hogan when the media BOOM hit... so the comparisons are difficult... like when people just assume Jordan was better than some of the older greats, primarily because they were more exposed to him...

His assessment was, in their prime, who would you rather have been like, Flair or Hogan? Flair was like a ladies man pimp time Dude who had all the chicks, whereas Hogan was more like a Saturday morning cartoon character... That being said, Ric cultivated more of an image than Hogan, but Hogan reached more people...
 
TJervey said:
I was talking to one of my Dude's at work who used to be a wrestling fanatic back in the day, and he put this in a really great prospective. It's hard to gauge impact because Ric was on the downside of his career and was much older than Hogan when the media BOOM hit... so the comparisons are difficult... like when people just assume Jordan was better than some of the older greats, primarily because they were more exposed to him...

His assessment was, in their prime, who would you rather have been like, Flair or Hogan? Flair was like a ladies man pimp time Dude who had all the chicks, whereas Hogan was more like a Saturday morning cartoon character... That being said, Ric cultivated more of an image than Hogan, but Hogan reached more people...
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Good one. Not entirely accurate on Flair's timeline. He was in his prime when the 80s boom happened, he just worked for a different company who had a similar boom but without the New York media machine behind it.
 
hardcore_legend said:
Don't get me wrong, I was a huge Flair fan.
But if what everyone says is true, Hogan's in ring skills should have made him a jobber and Flair should be the huge multi-media star.
IMO it is bigger than the matches.

When Flair went to the WWF he was gone in a year and when Hogan went to WCW he was part of the second biggest boom pro wrestling had ever seen.

Flair doesn't have that mainstream appeal that Hogan has, he even said it himself.

I still think the Vince/Hogan debate is like the Chicken or the Egg.

Vince has not "created" another Hulk Hogan in all this time.

Sure, Cena, Rock, and Austin are/were huge but no where near Hogan in his prime.

Even today when the average person thinks Pro Wrestling they think Hogan.
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Whoa, slow down there...big differences that are being overlooked...

First, Hogan's "wrestling skills" that you mention were incorporated long after his debut in wrestling. When he started out, he was more well rounded as a wrestler and mat technician. Check his matches out that were in Japan (especially against Antonio Inoki). Nowhere close to what he did in WWF/WCW.

Second, "Hulkamania" was all about timing. It is mentioned above that Cena, Rock, and Austin were big stars but nowhere near Hogan. The thing is, the product of wrestling itself was still kind of rare between 1984 and 1988. The big events were on closed circuit television for a few years, then on PPV after that. That Wrestlemania III matchup in Detroit pitted Hogan against Andre the Giant, and Hogan held the title for almost 4 years at that point. There weren't any Monday Night Raws, Smackdowns, or In Your House events yet...Shoot, there weren't any Royal Rumbles or Survivor Series or Summerslams, or even Saturday Night's Main Events yet...The rarer the product, the higher the demand at that time.

Not only that, being that he had the crown as the most popular wrestler in the sport for 10 years running, Hogan had every wrestling fan wrapped around him, so his heel turn was perfect in WCW for marketing purposes. Sure, there have been wrestlers that have done heel turns and it has worked (Michaels, The Rock twice, Austin, HHH) but not like how Hogan did it. Yet that took years to build...
 
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tp2001 said:
Not only that, being that he had the crown as the most popular wrestler in the sport for 10 years running, Hogan had every wrestling fan wrapped around him, so his heel turn was perfect in WCW for marketing purposes. Sure, there have been wrestlers that have done heel turns and it has worked (Michaels, The Rock twice, Austin, HHH) but not like how Hogan did it. Yet that took years to build...
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Yep. And it helped that WCW fans had turned on Hogan badly and it was either turn or go back to Vince and at that time, they weren't getting along. Eric Bischoff extended Hogan's career and added to his legend by turning him.
 
Upgrade Dave said:
The problem with that thinking is that wrestling in 2011 is still a niche market. The highest rated show is Monday Night Raw and it draws in the high 3s, low 4s at best. That's great cable numbers but would get it canceled on network tv.
Vince was going to make his move with or without Hulk Hogan. The mainstreaming of wrestling belongs more to McMahon than Hogan. He was the vehicle but McMahon was driving.
Wrestling was on tv before Hulk and that wouldn't have changed. TBS became a "superstation" based on the Atlanta Braves and Georgia/World Championship Wrestling. Memphis was drawing incredible ratings well into the 90s. Ric Flair drew 45k in Dallas to see him wrestle Kerry Von Erich in May of 84, 30k in Dallas to see him wrestle Kevin Von Erich in May of 85 and another 30k to see him wrestle Nikita Koloff in July 85 in Charlotte. All of this without the massive New York based machine and media satutation Hulk had behind him.
To put it plainly, you're overstating the influence of Hulk Hogan. Pro wrestling drew big crowds and big ratings long before Hulk Hogan beat the Iron Sheik in 84.
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I voted "Too Close To Call" then I read all the posts and this sums it up nicely. Up here in Brooklyn back in the 80s it was rare to see a Rick Flair match (or any NWA/AWA matches for that matter) unless you had wireless cable or lived in Manhattan where Time-Warner was. Every blue moon around 2AM you might catch a NWA match on WOR Ch9! It wasn't until the late 80s & early '90s that Flair and the wrestlers in the south caught my eye. Visions of Roddy Piper smacking Jimmy Snuka with a pineapple on Piper's Pit were still dancing in my head lol! The NWA wasn't even a consideration. Over the years I've come to admire Flair's ability both inside and outside the ring, and though Hogan is the most recognized, Rick Flair did hella more with a whole lot less.

That's what makes him the GOAT in my book.
 
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