Rhetoric vs Reality

Gunner

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This is what happens when you run out of other peoples money!!!!!


Greece in the making!!! Why do liberals think that states have their own printing press like the federal government. Half of the time they pay little to nothing for pensions or healthcare. When asked to contribute like everyone else this is the end result. It all boils down to what we can afford not what you want.:angry:

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UPDATE: Where are the democrats?

Dems missing from Wis. Capitol ahead of union vote


AP – Protestors of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's bill to eliminate collective bargaining rights for many state …

By SCOTT BAUER, Associated Press – 22 mins ago
MADISON, Wis. – Police officers were dispatched Thursday to find Wisconsin state lawmakers who had apparently boycotted a vote on a sweeping bill that would strip most government workers of their collective bargaining rights.
The lawmakers, all Democrats in the state Senate, did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation.
The proposal has been the focus of intense protests at the Statehouse for three days. As Republicans tried to begin Senate business Thursday, observers in the gallery screamed "Freedom! Democracy! Unions!"
Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, but they need at least one Democrat to be present before taking a vote on the bill.
"Today they checked out, and I'm not sure where they're at," Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said. "This is the ultimate shutdown, what we're seeing today."
Democratic Minority Leader Mark Miller released a statement on behalf of all Democrats urging Gov. Scott Walker and Republicans to listen to opponents of the measure and seek a compromise. His statement did not address where Democrats were or when they planned to return.
Bill opponents in the Senate gallery cheered when Senate President Mike Ellis announced that there were not enough senators present to proceed.
The bill came to the Senate after the Legislature's budget committee endorsed it just before midnight Wednesday.
Walker and Republican leaders have said they have the votes to pass the plan.
That didn't stop thousands of protesters from clogging the hallway outside the Senate chamber beating on drums, holding signs deriding Walker and pleading for lawmakers to kill the bill. Protesters also demonstrated outside the homes of some lawmakers.
Hundreds of teachers called in sick, forcing a number of school districts to cancel classes. Madison schools, the state's second-largest district with 24,000 students, closed for a second day as teachers poured into the Capitol.
Hundreds more people, many of them students from the nearby University of Wisconsin, slept in the rotunda for a second night.
"We are all willing to come to the table, we've have all been willing from day one," said Madison teacher Rita Miller. "But you can't take A, B, C, D and everything we've worked for in one fell swoop."
The head of the 98,000-member statewide teachers union called on all Wisconsin residents to come to the Capitol on Thursday for the votes in the Senate and Assembly.
"Our goal is not to close schools, but instead to remain vigilant in our efforts to be heard," said Wisconsin Education Association Council President Mary Bell.
The proposal marks a dramatic shift for Wisconsin, which passed a comprehensive collective bargaining law in 1959 and was the birthplace of the national union representing all non-federal public employees.
But so far, Democrats have been powerless to stop the bill.
"The story around the world is the rush to democracy," said Democratic Sen. Bob Jauch of Poplar. "The story in Wisconsin is the end of the democratic process."
In addition to eliminating collective bargaining rights, the legislation also would make public workers pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care coverage — increases Walker calls "modest" compared with those in the private sector.
Republican leaders said they expected Wisconsin residents would be pleased with the savings the bill would achieve — $30 million by July 1 and $300 million over the next two years to address a $3.6 billion budget shortfall.
"I think the taxpayers will support this idea," Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said.
Wisconsin has long been a bastion for workers' rights. It was the first state to grant collective bargaining rights to public employees more than a half-century ago. And the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was founded in 1936 in Madison.
But when voters elected Walker, an outspoken conservative, along with GOP majorities in both legislative chambers, it set the stage for a dramatic reversal of the state's labor history.
Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.
Unions still could represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.
In exchange for bearing more costs and losing bargaining leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs. Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass.
 
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Classic example of rhetoric vs. reality.

I'm sure if the Governor sat down with public sector unions, they could come up with a way to settle this but he's chosen not to.
Can someone explain to me how eliminating collective bargaining rights saves any money? This is a tactic to bust unions because Republicans hate working class people.
 
Classic example of rhetoric vs. reality.

I'm sure if the Governor sat down with public sector unions, they could come up with a way to settle this but he's chosen not to.
Can someone explain to me how eliminating collective bargaining rights saves any money? This is a tactic to bust unions because Republicans hate working class people.


Bold statement Dave. Simple math Dave you cant spend what you don't have. The
sad part is that the Dems cut and ran rather than debate the issue. They represent the people. Most states are required to have a balanced budget. The Fed level have ruined the mind set of many. How can you negotiate with no money. So as Governor you will hand out paychecks and shut down your state?:hmm:


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Still trying to wrap your head around the budget battle? Perhaps it would be helpful to pretend it is your own household budget. If you earn $50,000 a year but spend $87,000 you would have a problem. That’s the example given to us from Duquesne University Economics Professor Antony Davies;

If the Federal government were scaled down to the size of the average US household, here’s what its finances would look like:
The Federal government would earn $50,000 a year in tax revenue (the same as the average US household).
It would be $325,000 in debt.
It would pay almost $10,000 a year in interest on that debt.
Last year, it would have spent $79,000.
This year, it is hoping to spend $86,000.
The $100 billion in spending cuts (that some politicians view as draconian) would be equivalent to the household cutting its $86,000 in planned spending down to a mere $83,700. Not a bad start, but the household has another $33,700 to go before it balances its budget.
The annual budget is $3.73 trillion, a staggering amount of money that appears even bigger when you see it written out. $3,730,000,000,000.00. According to the President, that is how much money we require to operate the country for the next year. We have a problem, the country does not take in enough money to cover the $3.73 trillion. Current projections have revenues falling about $1.1trillion short of that amount, meaning that we will have to borrow that money in order to keep living the way we have been living.
 
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National_Debt_Increase.jpg

Republicans at both the state and federal level have absolutely NO credibility when it comes to fiscal issues.

Walker’s enacted tax cut plan is punching Swiss cheese holes in the state budget for the benefit smaller businesses in terms of gross receipts (sorry, couldn’t resist that one). Although the true cost of the tax rate supermajority requirement is unknowable, the Walker-instituted changes that can be priced add up to $100 million over two years already.
http://blogs.forbes.com/leesheppard/2011/02/15/wisconsins-cheesy-tax-cuts/
 
Wisconsin Senators Found!!!!

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Run Liberal Run:lol: Scum Bags


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Bold statement Dave.


G
I'm a guy who takes the evidence of people's behavior and draws conclusions and Republican politicians behave in a way that says "We hate working class people". When you don't want to cut defense spending (even on weapons the Pentagon doesn't want) or oil subsidies to the most profitable businesses in recorded history but you go after PBS, NPR, Planned Parenthood and you refuse tax increases for upper earners while pushing a plan that raises taxes on everyone else, you hate working people.

Simple math Dave you cant spend what you don't have.
True. The obvious answer is cut spending and raise revenue. Whether locally or nationally, you can't cut enough to get out of debt.

The
sad part is that the Dems cut and ran rather than debate the issue.
They represent the people. Most states are required to have a balanced budget. The Fed level have ruined the mind set of many. How can you negotiate with no money. So as Governor you will hand out paychecks and shut down your state?:hmm:

Not true. The Republicans introduced the bill on a Friday and it was they who cut off debate to rush the bill through. The Democrats are doing the exact right thing by slowing down the state GOP steamroll.

I'm sure with the option of layoffs looming, the governor could negotiate with the public sector unions about making some changes but there is no negotiating when he's trying to weaken/eliminate their collective bargaining rights. That's what they're protesting about.
 
While we're distinguishing between rhetoric and reality, the General Fund Conditions Statement for the state of Wisconsin for 2010-2011 says they're on the path to having a budget surplus, not a deficit.

They have a 130 million dollar shortfall, true but they gave away 140 million dollars in tax breaks to businesses.

So what's this about really if not busting up public sector unions?
 
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g
i'm a guy who takes the evidence of people's behavior and draws conclusions and republican politicians behave in a way that says "we hate working class people". when you don't want to cut defense spending (even on weapons the pentagon doesn't want) or oil subsidies to the most profitable businesses in recorded history but you go after pbs, npr, planned parenthood and you refuse tax increases for upper earners while pushing a plan that raises taxes on everyone else, you hate working people.

RETORT

the president job is to protect our borders first. If we don't maintain freedom everything else is a moot point. profitable businesses provide jobs for american people. Please don't defend planned parenthood. They killed more black children than the kkk.
Check out the racist past of margaret sanger, who felt blacks were inferior to the white race. Dave eventually those taxes you want to raise will trickle down to you. You can only tax those evil rich people so much. Hence wisconsin. Now everyone has to pay. Those representatives who promised all those goodies are either retired and have moved on to greener pastures. Now the new legislators have to deal with the problem. All they are asked to do is to contribute to their pension, which many in the private have to, and pay 10 percent of their health costs. 200.00 which equals about 24,000 per year for a family of four. My costs for my family of 4 is 1700.00 freaking dollars. How can you justify every one else losing their jobs, can't contribute to their own pensions and the fucking government is taking money from the private to fund the public pensions!!! This way of thinking is why wisconsin has a new republican governor since god knows when. People are tired of it dave.:smh:



True. The obvious answer is cut spending and raise revenue. Whether locally or nationally, you can't cut enough to get out of debt.



Not true. The republicans introduced the bill on a friday and it was they who cut off debate to rush the bill through. The democrats are doing the exact right thing by slowing down the state gop steamroll.

I'm sure with the option of layoffs looming, the governor could negotiate with the public sector unions about making some changes but there is no negotiating when he's trying to weaken/eliminate their collective bargaining rights. That's what they're protesting about.

doing the right thing is fighting for the people who put you there democrat or republican. Did the republicans jump on a bus and run from obama? No, they used what means they had to try and prevent his agenda not run.
 
doing the right thing is fighting for the people who put you there democrat or republican.

Did the republicans jump on a bus and run from obama? No, they used what means they had to try and prevent his agenda not run.

You're arguing "Form over Substance".

Obviously, both sides see what they are trying to do is the "right" thing. One side sees the protection of CBA's (Collective Bargaining Agreements) as important; the other side apparently sees debt reduction as important, even if it is at the expense of someone else's bargained for agreement - or - regardless of whether it is even the right thing to do, given the circumstances.

Your statement above is not about "substance" - - its about the tactics used in the fight over the substance. Your argument is of the weakest variety because its really about "tactics" -- instead of substance.

In other words, as is your standard fare, using buzz words like you "liberals" vs. your so-called "conservatives" is really just high school cheerleading (my team vs. your team, rah fucking rah) and has shit to do with with issues -- because not once (that I've noticed and excuse me if I've missed it) have you addressed why trampling over the bargained-for rights of one group to reach your goal is the right way to do this - or - that it is even the "right thing" to do. Would negotiation be a better approach ??? Are there other alternatives ???


QueEx
 
doing the right thing is fighting for the people who put you there democrat or republican. Did the republicans jump on a bus and run from obama? No, they used what means they had to try and prevent his agenda not run.

No, the GOP stayed in DC and failed to cooperate on any measure put forth. How did they do their job by not participating except to say "No" even with ideas that were their own?

The state Democrats are doing their job by actually give state employees a chance to moblize and have their side heard.


the president job is to protect our borders first. If we don't maintain freedom everything else is a moot point. profitable businesses provide jobs for american people. Please don't defend planned parenthood. They killed more black children than the kkk.
Check out the racist past of margaret sanger, who felt blacks were inferior to the white race. Dave eventually those taxes you want to raise will trickle down to you. You can only tax those evil rich people so much. Hence wisconsin. Now everyone has to pay. Those representatives who promised all those goodies are either retired and have moved on to greener pastures. Now the new legislators have to deal with the problem. All they are asked to do is to contribute to their pension, which many in the private have to, and pay 10 percent of their health costs. 200.00 which equals about 24,000 per year for a family of four. My costs for my family of 4 is 1700.00 freaking dollars. How can you justify every one else losing their jobs, can't contribute to their own pensions and the fucking government is taking money from the private to fund the public pensions!!! This way of thinking is why wisconsin has a new republican governor since god knows when. People are tired of it dave.

The President's job is to defend the Constitution, it's right there in his Oath of Office.
And how does that excuse paying for weapons and systems that the Pentagon doesn't want? Don't just toe the line, use your brain and good sense to see that as the waste of money and pork spending it is.
I don't give two $h!ts about an old racist like Sanger. But she's been dead a good long time and Planned Parenthood provided a plethora of services other than abortion, which is perfectly legal and if Black women want to use it, fine by me.
So corporations will "trickle down" the added costs of raised taxes to customers. So what? They pay relatively little now (and in some cases, none) and I don't see them keeping costs down. There are two options for the immediate future: raise taxes on the top earners while holding them down for the working class or do the opposite, which one do you prefer? Which one makes the most sense when trying to stablize a damaged economy?

You are horribly misinformed about what's happening in Wisconsin and you don't seem interested or able to respond to what I said previously. Unions have always been able to come to the table and give a little and give a lot to keep people working and to help whatever business they're partnered with but this governor wants to bust the union and that's it. What does limiting their ability to collectively bargain have to do with saving Wisconsin money? Why only limit the collective bargaining power of the unions that didn't support his run for governor? Why try to save money on the backs of your state workers while give millions of dollars away to business in tax breaks?
 
You're arguing "Form over Substance".

Obviously, both sides see what they are trying to do is the "right" thing. One side sees the protection of CBA's (Collective Bargaining Agreements) as important; the other side apparently sees debt reduction as important, even if it is at the expense of someone else's bargained for agreement - or - regardless of whether it is even the right thing to do, given the circumstances.

It is.

In other words, as is your standard fare, using buzz words like you "liberals" vs. your so-called "conservatives" is really just high school cheerleading (my team vs. your team, rah fucking rah) and has shit to do with with issues -- because not once (that I've noticed and excuse me if I've missed it) have you addressed why trampling over the bargained-for rights of one group to reach your goal is the right way to do this - or - that it is even the "right thing" to do. Would negotiation be a better approach ??? Are there other alternatives ???


QueEx

That's all I'm asking.
 
Re: Wisconsin Senators Found!!!!

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Run Liberal Run:lol: Scum Bags


miller-wi-milk-carton-216x300.jpg

Intellectual and fact based...for a Republican!
 
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