players in the triple post O v. other O

[cranrab]

we all know what the triple post O did for the chicago bulls as a team.

but have you ever wondered how a player has done inside the triple post O as well as outside the triple post O?

let's take a closer look.

michael jordan played 585 regular season games in the triple post O. michael jordan played 487 regular season games in other O. good sample sizes for both.

michael jordan averaged 23.35 FGAs per game in the triple post O.
michael jordan averaged 22.33 FGAs per game in other O.

michael jordan shot 50.08 FG% in the triple post O.
michael jordan shot 49.19 FG% in other O.

michael jordan shot 35.94 3FG% in the triple post O.
michael jordan shot 21.27 3FG% in other O.

michael jordan averaged 7.9 FTAs per game in the triple post O.
michael jordan averaged 8.53 FTAs per game in other O.

michael jordan averaged 82.98 FT% in the triple post O.
michael jordan averaged 84.13 FT% in other O.

michael jordan averaged 1.54 offensive rebounds in the triple post O.
michael jordan averaged 1.57 offensive rebounds in other O.

michael jordan averaged 5.07 assists in the triple post O.
michael jordan averaged 5.48 assists in other O.

michael jordan averaged 2.46 turnovers in the triple post O.
michael jordan averaged 2.82 turnovers in other O.

michael jordan scored 30.79 points per game in the triple post O.
michael jordan scored 29.32 points per game in other O.

 

[cranrab]

footnotes

other statistics not always related to the triple post O:

michael jordan minutes played: 38.37 v. 38.12

michael jordan defensive rebounds: 4.79 v. 4.52

michael jordan steals: 2.3 v. 2.4

michael jordan personal fouls: 2.41 v. 2.82

any predictions on how scottie pippen will look?

 

[cranrab]

ok, so 34 additional views, but no guesses on how scottie pippen looked inside and outside the triple post O.

scottie pippen played 681 regular season games in the triple post O. scottie pippen played 497 regular season games in other O.

scottie pippen averaged 15.97 FGAs per game in the triple post O.
scottie pippen averaged 9.71 FGAs per game in other O.

scottie pippen shot 48.41 FG% in the triple post O.
scottie pippen shot 44.67 FG% in other O.

scottie pippen shot 33.24 3FG% in the triple post O.
scottie pippen shot 31.46 3FG% in other O.

scottie pippen averaged 4.52 FTAs per game in the triple post O.
scottie pippen averaged 2.74 FTAs per game in other O.

scottie pippen averaged 70.22 FT% in the triple post O.
scottie pippen averaged 70.68 FT% in other O.

scottie pippen averaged 2.08 offensive rebounds in the triple post O.
scottie pippen averaged 1.32 offensive rebounds in other O.

scottie pippen averaged 5.9 assists in the triple post O.
scottie pippen averaged 4.26 assists in other O.

scottie pippen averaged 3 turnovers in the triple post O.
scottie pippen averaged 2.44 turnovers in other O.

scottie pippen scored 19.55 points per game in the triple post O.
scottie pippen scored 11.32 points per game in other O

 

[cranrab]

footnotes

other statistics not always related to the triple post O:

scottie pippen minutes played: 37.88 v. 30.73

scottie pippen defensive rebounds: 5.14 v. 3.87

scottie pippen steals: 2.26 v. 1.54

scottie pippen personal fouls: 2.97 v. 2.63

 

[cranrab]

7 more views and still no comments?

OK, then how about shaquille o'neal?

shaquille o'neal played 354 regular season games in the triple post O. shaquille o'neal played 903 regular season games in other O.

shaquille o'neal averaged 18.29 FGAs per game in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal averaged 14.94 FGAs per game in other O.

shaquille o'neal shot 57.61 FG% in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal shot 58.55 FG% in other O.

shaquille o'neal averaged 11.06 FTAs per game in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal averaged 8.48 FTAs per game in other O.

shaquille o'neal averaged 53.93 FT% in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal averaged 51.99 FT% in other O.

shaquille o'neal averaged 3.86 offensive rebounds in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal averaged 3.32 offensive rebounds in other O.

shaquille o'neal averaged 3.33 assists in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal averaged 2.14 assists in other O.

shaquille o'neal averaged 2.83 turnovers in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal averaged 2.74 turnovers in other O.

shaquille o'neal scored 27.04 points per game in the triple post O.
shaquille o'neal scored 21.9 points per game in other O.

 

[cranrab]

footnotes

other statistics not always related to the triple post O:

shaquille o'neal minutes played: 38.16 v. 33.18

shaquille o'neal defensive rebounds: 8.13 v. 7.05

shaquille o'neal personal fouls: 3.29 v. 3.52

 

[Spectrum]

Re: footnotes

Interesting stuff cran...

 

[cranrab]

Re: footnotes

Interesting stuff cran...

more to come

 

[Spectrum]

Re: footnotes

more to come

 

[xfactor]

good post.

do you have the possessions per game differential for each?

 

[cranrab]

good post.

do you have the possessions per game differential for each?

i believe you're referring to what b-r.com refers to as "usage".

i still have the data tables, but i am too lazy/distracted to plug in the numbers into their formula.

here is the b-r.com formula. my posts contain all the relevant data. feel free.

Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + TmTOV)). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor .

 

[cranrab]

tobe played 824 regular season games in the triple post O (as of the creation date of this thread).
tobe played 234 regular season games in other O.

tobe averaged 21.41 FGAs per game in the triple post O.
tobe averaged 12.03 FGAs per game in other O.

tobe shot 45.82 FG% in the triple post O.
tobe shot 43.11 FG% in other O.

tobe shot 34.02 3FG% in the triple post O.
tobe shot 33.38 3FG% in other O.

tobe averaged 8.25 FTAs per game in the triple post O.
tobe averaged 5.5 FTAs per game in other O.

tobe averaged 84.29 FT% in the triple post O.
tobe averaged 80.90 FT% in other O.

tobe averaged 1.25 offensive rebounds in the triple post O.
tobe averaged 0.95 offensive rebounds in other O.

tobe averaged 5.13 assists in the triple post O.
tobe averaged 3.65 assists in other O.

tobe averaged 3.05 turnovers in the triple post O.
tobe averaged 2.47 turnovers in other O.

tobe scored 27.95 points per game in the triple post O.
tobe scored 15.76 points per game in other O.

 

[cranrab]

footnotes

other statistics not always related to the triple post O:

tobe minutes played: 38.96 v. 27.71

tobe defensive rebounds: 4.5 v. 2.7

tobe personal fouls: 2.75 v. 2.24

 

[cranrab]

ratio of posted players time in v. time out

some of the statistical differences are merely a manifestation of the number of minutes played per game in the offenses compared. some are not.

below are the minutes comparisons (presented in a ratio of minute/minute) so you can decide how significant the statistical differences are. note how in certain instances a player or players have tremendously benefited from the triple post O, while others with genuine talent have demonstrated their ability regardless of system.

michael jordan: 1.006:1

scottie pippen: 1.232:1

shaquille o'neal: 1.150:1

tobe: 1.405:1

 

[Diamels]

Re: ratio of posted players time in v. time out

good stuff...

 

[ShotzSho]

numbers don't lie. So let's learn the triple post O. Is that where Jordan used to post up 15 ft from hoop? Is that what made it a triple post? And how does that fit into the Triangle offense?

 

[RunawaySlave]

So Jordan basically was a slightly more efficient scorer with playing that offense, but his 3pt shooting was significantly better.
Even though he wasn't better by much, basketball is a game of inches and making one more shot could be the difference between winning and losing

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Most people don't realize that the offense was initiated through Jordan on the low block. It helps when you have a tall PG (See Ron Harper) but it isn't necessary because it depends on which post player gets the rock and where. Ideally the center or PF starts the offense.

The Lakers of today sees Kobe get the rock in the high post on the wing, With Odom (or Bynum) and Gasol down low. I'm curious to see the win% of the Lakers when the ball goes into the lost post with one of those two instead of the high post with Kobe.

 

[cranrab]

So Jordan basically was a slightly more efficient scorer with playing that offense, but his 3pt shooting was significantly better.

Even though he wasn't better by much, basketball is a game of inches and making one more shot could be the difference between winning and losing

everyone knows about michael jordan's impressive FG% that came along with the triple post O, but one of the more compelling aspects that comes from the comparison is that michael jordan actually averaged FEWER FTAs per game OUTSIDE of the championship years.

that completely EXPLODES the myth about his success being related to receiving preferential calls from officiating.

aside from the FG% (both FG and 3FG) it's also interesting to note that the efficiency of the system worked to decrease his TOs in spite of averaging more MP.

 

[cranrab]

nSo let's learn the triple post O. Is that where Jordan used to post up 15 ft from hoop? Is that what made it a triple post? And how does that fit into the Triangle offense?

michael jordan was deceptively strong. meaning that he was stronger than his lean frame might appear. michael jordan could not only establish position in the post, but he could also hold his position in the post.

in contrast, for example, tobe has always been to weak to hold his position in the post, and has never put the time in the gym to gain the requisite strength. weight gain? yes. added muscle? no.

so coach jackson had the luxury of being able to start the O with michael jordan ANYWHERE on the floor. wing, high post, low block. didn't matter, because michael jordan was smart enough and talented enough to play with and without the ball from any vantage point.

in contrast, tobe has only proven minorly effective at the SF spot on the wing where he can launch shots from distance over the top of the D. tobe has neither the requisite basketball IQ or the physical tools to play the post positions of the triple post O.

that's why the fakers have only been successful when skilled players like shaquille o'neal and pau gasol are manning the post. they are both smart enough and adequately skilled to play with and without the ball.

 

[cranrab]

Most people don't realize that the offense was initiated through Jordan on the low block. It helps when you have a tall PG (See Ron Harper, [brian shaw]) but it isn't necessary because it depends on which post player gets the rock and where. Ideally the [post player] starts the offense.

made a couple additions.

The Lakers of today sees Kobe get the rock in the high post on the wing, With Odom (or Bynum) and Gasol down low. I'm curious to see the win% of the Lakers when the ball goes into the lost post with one of those two instead of the high post with Kobe.

the fakers have tweaked the triple post every season (change of personnel), but fundamentally there have only been 3 versions since 2000 (1 for shaquille o'neal, 1 with no post player, 1 for pau gasol).

note the position of tobe (3) in all of the following scenarios:

 

[cranrab]

coach winter's fundamental principles of the O:

Basic Philosophy

Tex identifies seven principles of sound offense that he uses as a philosophical basis for the offense in the abovementioned FIBA Assist article:

1. Penetration of the Defense. You must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am literally a fanatic about spacing. The floor must be spaced, so it is difficult for the defense to help as well as to trap. The players must be distant from each other a certain amount of space, and the distance varies. At the high school level, I would recommend 12-15 feet, at the college level 15 to 18 feet, and in the NBA from 15 to 20 feet. With this proper spacing, if the defense tries to trap there always will be an open player.

3. Ball and Player Movement. The players must move the ball and move themselves on the court, but with a purpose, because there is only one ball and the players will play almost 80% of the time without possession of the ball.

4. Options for the Ballhandler. He must be able to pass the ball to all the other four teammates, so the players must be in constant motion.

5. Offense Rebound and Defensive Balance. On all possible shots, the offense must provide a strong offensive rebound coverage, as well as create a defensive balance to avoid the opponents' fast break.

6. To fill any spot. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independently of his role. All the positions should be interchangeable.

7. Utilize individual talents. Take advantage of your best players, but always with the respect of all the other teammates on the court. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Passing

Because this offense is primarily a passing attack, the skill of passing is a major point of emphasis in the offense. Coach Winter likewise has 7 principles of the fundamentals of passing the ball:

1. The distance between the passer and his defender should be no more than 3 feet, and preferably less. The closer the defender covers the offensive player with the ball, the less time he has to react to the passer movement, giving to the passer the chance to recognize what the defender is doing. This principle of good passing is violated more than any other.

2. He must see the passing lanes and the receiver, but not look at the receiver, unless the pass is preceded by an effective fake, and do not turn and face the receiver. Use what is called the peripheral vision, but iwhout making a blind pass.

3. He has to use fakes with a purpose, not over-fake, because he will not be able to recognize what the defender is doing with the hands. He must make a fake and react with poise, seeing the lane of passing.

4. He mus eliminate all unnecessary moves in ballhandling and passing, using quick wrist and finger action, shortening as much as possible the action of the pass.

5. He has to quickly pass the ball to an open teammates, who has no more than 3 seconds after he received it to make his play, such as passing, shooting, faking and driving, or passing and cutting. For every second under the 3 seconds it takes for the receiver of the pass to execute the play, the better basketball player he becomes. For every second over the 3 seconds, he becomes a poorer one. All the players on the court must move the ball quickly, so the defense will be occupied, opening the chances of passing lanes and scoring opportunities.



6. He must pass the ball to a teammate's open side, a rule often violated even by the best the players. The passer must have the vision not only of his defender, but also of the passing lane and the receiver's defender. Naturally also the receiver must help the passer offering him a good target, as well as keeping his defender away from the passing lane or freezing or sealing him for a second for giving the passer a chance to pass the ball safely.

7. He must anticipate when he may receive the ball and have enough intuition to know in advance the best places to pass the ball. And this is a skill the best players have. This is the reason why some pro teams are outstanding even if they appeared to have very little definite team pattern. If the players do not have this ability, it is necessary to build an offensive pattern that gives the players the chance of keeping the defense busy.

 

[cranrab]

i just noticed some sensitive person 1 starred this thread.

someone got their feelings hurt.

 

[cranrab]

for those who want to be able to have accurate discussions about the fakers (something 99.9% of their fans cannot do), please follow this link and start on page 8:

http://www.fiba.com/downloads/assistmagazines/2007/27.pdf

after you digest the article, you will now be more knowledgeable when watching a fakers game than the announcers, color commentators and blow hard fans.

you will be able to spot BGOL frauds, pretenders and poseurs as soon as their bullshit leaks from their keyboards.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Speaking on one of the points above, I find it interesting how much timing plays a part in disrupting the triangle. I remember when Larry Brown put Eric Snow on the Lakers PGs and it cut their time to set up the O in half. It really disrupted the offense. As a Knicks fan it used to kill me to watch them play GREAT man defense for 20 seconds only to have Jordan bail them out in the remaining 4. But like JVG says, the hardest play to defend is the broken play.

Ben Wallace and Kendrick Perkins' play against the triangle can't be taken for granted as they guarded the best post player (Shaq, Gasol) and played well enough that the didn't automatically double. Paxton, Horry and Kerr earned their checks just by waiting for Shaq or Jordan to kick the ball out for an open three.

 

[cranrab]

Speaking on one of the points above, I find it interesting how much timing plays a part in disrupting the triangle.

it is vital. because you have to get 5 bodies in their proper places, then start running the O. coach winter used to complain about that in chicago because sometimes by the time the play actually began, there were only 12 seconds left on the shot clock.

 

[Spectrum]

michael jordan was deceptively strong. meaning that he was stronger than his lean frame might appear. michael jordan could not only establish position in the post, but he could also hold his position in the post.

I talked to a player that played against Jordan and that was the first thing he mentioned....was his strength.