McCain was born in Panama: Can he be President?

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February 28, 2008
McCain’s Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out
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By CARL HULSE
WASHINGTON — The question has nagged at the parents of Americans born outside the continental United States for generations: Dare their children aspire to grow up and become president? In the case of Senator John McCain of Arizona, the issue is becoming more than a matter of parental daydreaming.

Mr. McCain’s likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a “natural-born citizen” can hold the nation’s highest office.

Almost since those words were written in 1787 with scant explanation, their precise meaning has been the stuff of confusion, law school review articles, whisper campaigns and civics class debates over whether only those delivered on American soil can be truly natural born. To date, no American to take the presidential oath has had an official birthplace outside the 50 states.

“There are powerful arguments that Senator McCain or anyone else in this position is constitutionally qualified, but there is certainly no precedent,” said Sarah H. Duggin, an associate professor of law at Catholic University who has studied the issue extensively. “It is not a slam-dunk situation.”

Mr. McCain was born on a military installation in the Canal Zone, where his mother and father, a Navy officer, were stationed. His campaign advisers say they are comfortable that Mr. McCain meets the requirement and note that the question was researched for his first presidential bid in 1999 and reviewed again this time around.

But given mounting interest, the campaign recently asked Theodore B. Olson, a former solicitor general now advising Mr. McCain, to prepare a detailed legal analysis. “I don’t have much doubt about it,” said Mr. Olson, who added, though, that he still needed to finish his research.

Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina and one of Mr. McCain’s closest allies, said it would be incomprehensible to him if the son of a military member born in a military station could not run for president.

“He was posted there on orders from the United States government,” Mr. Graham said of Mr. McCain’s father. “If that becomes a problem, we need to tell every military family that your kid can’t be president if they take an overseas assignment.”

The phrase “natural born” was in early drafts of the Constitution. Scholars say notes of the Constitutional Convention give away little of the intent of the framers. Its origin may be traced to a letter from John Jay to George Washington, with Jay suggesting that to prevent foreigners from becoming commander in chief, the Constitution needed to “declare expressly” that only a natural-born citizen could be president.

Ms. Duggin and others who have explored the arcane subject in depth say legal argument and basic fairness may indeed be on the side of Mr. McCain, a longtime member of Congress from Arizona. But multiple experts and scholarly reviews say the issue has never been definitively resolved by either Congress or the Supreme Court.

Ms. Duggin favors a constitutional amendment to settle the matter. Others have called on Congress to guarantee that Americans born outside the national boundaries can legitimately see themselves as potential contenders for the Oval Office.

“They ought to have the same rights,” said Don Nickles, a former Republican senator from Oklahoma who in 2004 introduced legislation that would have established that children born abroad to American citizens could harbor presidential ambitions without a legal cloud over their hopes. “There is some ambiguity because there has never been a court case on what ‘natural-born citizen’ means.”

Mr. McCain’s situation is different from those of the current governors of California and Michigan, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jennifer M. Granholm, who were born in other countries and were first citizens of those nations, rendering them naturalized Americans ineligible under current interpretations. The conflict that could conceivably ensnare Mr. McCain goes more to the interpretation of “natural born” when weighed against intent and decades of immigration law.

Mr. McCain is not the first person to find himself in these circumstances. The last Arizona Republican to be a presidential nominee, Barry Goldwater, faced the issue. He was born in the Arizona territory in 1909, three years before it became a state. But Goldwater did not win, and the view at the time was that since he was born in a continental territory that later became a state, he probably met the standard.

It also surfaced in the 1968 candidacy of George Romney, who was born in Mexico, but again was not tested. The former Connecticut politician Lowell P. Weicker Jr., born in Paris, sought a legal analysis when considering the presidency, an aide said, and was assured he was eligible. Franklin D. Roosevelt Jr. was once viewed as a potential successor to his father, but was seen by some as ineligible since he had been born on Campobello Island in Canada. The 21st president, Chester A. Arthur, whose birthplace is Vermont, was rumored to have actually been born in Canada, prompting some to question his eligibility.

Quickly recognizing confusion over the evolving nature of citizenship, the First Congress in 1790 passed a measure that did define children of citizens “born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States to be natural born.” But that law is still seen as potentially unconstitutional and was overtaken by subsequent legislation that omitted the “natural-born” phrase.

Mr. McCain’s citizenship was established by statutes covering the offspring of Americans abroad and laws specific to the Canal Zone as Congress realized that Americans would be living and working in the area for extended periods. But whether he qualifies as natural-born has been a topic of Internet buzz for months, with some declaring him ineligible while others assert that he meets all the basic constitutional qualifications — a natural-born citizen at least 35 years of age with 14 years of residence.

“I don’t think he has any problem whatsoever,” said Mr. Nickles, a McCain supporter. “But I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if somebody is going to try to make an issue out of it. If it goes to court, I think he will win.”

Lawyers who have examined the topic say there is not just confusion about the provision itself, but uncertainty about who would have the legal standing to challenge a candidate on such grounds, what form a challenge could take and whether it would have to wait until after the election or could be made at any time.

In a paper written 20 years ago for the Yale Law Journal on the natural-born enigma, Jill Pryor, now a lawyer in Atlanta, said that any legal challenge to a presidential candidate born outside national boundaries would be “unpredictable and unsatisfactory.”

“If I were on the Supreme Court, I would decide for John McCain,” Ms. Pryor said in a recent interview. “But it is certainly not a frivolous issue.”
 
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He was born on an Army Base. Americans born on an American military base are American. Just like Americans Born in Korea or Japan on militarized zones. This is stupid.
 
Yes he is American, but the Consititution doesnt say "American" is a requirement... is says "natural born citizen". So whether you think its stupid or not, fact is, there is a valid argument on both sides, and you better believe it will be an issue if someone decides to challenge him (in court).


also, this was taken from wikipedia

Legislation and legal arguments

The requirements for citizenship and the very definition thereof have changed since the Constitution was ratified in 1788. Congress first extended citizenship to children born to U.S. parents overseas on March 26, 1790, under the first naturalization law: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."[1][2] This was addressed by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case as a form of naturalization.[3] The Dred Scott case, however, was overturned by the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868. The Fourteenth Amendment mentions two types of citizenship: citizenship by birth and citizenship by law (naturalized citizens): "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
All persons born in the United States, except those not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. government (such as children of foreign diplomats) are citizens by birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. There is some debate over whether other persons with citizenship can also be considered citizens by birth, or whether they should all be considered to be "naturalized". Current US statutes define certain individuals born overseas as "citizens at birth," as opposed to citizens by birth.[4] One side of the argument interprets the Constitution as meaning that a person either is born in the United States or is a naturalized citizen. According to this view, in order to be a "natural born citizen," a person must be born in the United States; otherwise, he is a citizen "by law" and is therefore "naturalized."[5] Current State Department policy reads: "Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."[6]
Others argue that foreign-born children who are "citizens at birth" under the law (on account of having been born to American parents overseas) are "natural born citizens" — citing the 1790 law to show that the early Congress considered such children to be natural born — and, as such, would be eligible for the Presidency.[7] Examples of persons who become citizens at birth (whether "naturalized" or "natural born") would include: birth to Americans overseas, or birth on U.S. soil, territories, or military bases overseas.[8]

He was born on an Army Base. Americans born on an American military base are American. Just like Americans Born in Korea or Japan on militarized zones. This is stupid.
 
US Military bases anywhere in the world are considered to be part of the United States.This is dumb as fuck.You think he would have known this before he ran.:rolleyes:
 
yeah but if he is born on a military base, that would also include any base in the world as US soil. I see the argument however the mans father was in the military on assignment. which means that if he was born on us soil/on military base, then that constitutes US soil, and natural born.

Thats why you don't see this on the news because its a real non issue. if you are representing the us in a military fashion then you or your kids should not be penalized.
 
Yes he is American, but the Consititution doesnt say "American" is a requirement... is says "natural born citizen". So whether you think its stupid or not, fact is, there is a valid argument on both sides, and you better believe it will be an issue if someone decides to challenge him (in court).


also, this was taken from wikipedia

You are reaching , I know it's an election and all but this is far fetched and retarded. Who cares about the physical soil of the US. The "US" is a made up territory. So if they have zones in other country that are "American Zones" It's the same shit. This is a frivolous childish attempt at a political scandal.
 
You are reaching , I know it's an election and all but this is far fetched and retarded. Who cares about the physical soil of the US. The "US" is a made up territory. So if they have zones in other country that are "American Zones" It's the same shit. This is a frivolous childish attempt at a political scandal.

Im not reaching.. Im READING.... Like the article says, there are valid arguments on both sides... I didnt write it...
 
In 1904 Congress passed a legal provision that established all Americans born on base
in Panama would be American citizens. Most of these Americans were there working
on the Panama Canal project. Congress understood the workers would be there for
years and years and needed to ensure that any children born to them while in Panama
would be afforded the same rights as citizens born in the US. So any child of American
parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904 are American citizens.
 
^^^ Yep as a Vet of the military I know all to well born by even 1 of the parents who is a American citizen...he's American in the continental US or abroad.

Hell everywhere we went overseas them broads was trying to get knocked up:yes:
 
He was born on an Army Base. Americans born on an American military base are American. Just like Americans Born in Korea or Japan on militarized zones. This is stupid.
it's not about being american. the constitution specifically states that he must be a natural-born citizen of the United States.
 
no one questions whether he is a citizen.. read the article.. they are questioning the constitutional phrase "natural born citizen"

In 1904 Congress passed a legal provision that established all Americans born on base
in Panama would be American citizens. Most of these Americans were there working
on the Panama Canal project. Congress understood the workers would be there for
years and years and needed to ensure that any children born to them while in Panama
would be afforded the same rights as citizens born in the US. So any child of American
parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904 are American citizens.
 
Lol at this dumbass post.

Written by Carl Hulse of The New York Times. Same paper that had the lobbyist sex scandal article on McCain 2 weeks ago.

Conservative papers will rip Obama like liberal shops will rip McCain, it's all part of the game.

wirenewspic1.jpg



Guys like this will be real busy the next couple months...
 
I also think its a bit of a stretch. I think the intention is for G.I.'s who also born children with women who are not US citizens.

The 14th amend stands...

McCain has other severe flaws that can wreck him, but not this...
 
In 1904 Congress passed a legal provision that established all Americans born on base
in Panama would be American citizens. Most of these Americans were there working
on the Panama Canal project. Congress understood the workers would be there for
years and years and needed to ensure that any children born to them while in Panama
would be afforded the same rights as citizens born in the US. So any child of American
parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904 are American citizens.
yes but are they natural-born citizen by definition?

i'm not saying i agree with it but on legal grounds their might be a case against him technically speaking (it would be unfair cause it's a technicallity)

also in the big picture if this gets traction i see this as a positive for Mccain cause he instantly becomes the underdog and he'll get A LOT of sympathy if you mix in the fact that he's a POW war veteran.
 
In 1904 Congress passed a legal provision that established all Americans born on base
in Panama would be American citizens. Most of these Americans were there working
on the Panama Canal project. Congress understood the workers would be there for
years and years and needed to ensure that any children born to them while in Panama
would be afforded the same rights as citizens born in the US. So any child of American
parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904 are American citizens.
including the right of a natural born citizen to run for president
 
Natural-born citizen

Who is a natural-born citizen? Who, in other words, is a citizen at birth, such that that person can be a President someday?

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.

Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.

Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402), Alaska (8 USC 1404), Hawaii (8 USC 1405), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406), and Guam (8 USC 1407). Each of these sections confer citizenship on persons living in these territories as of a certain date, and usually confer natural-born status on persons born in those territories after that date. For example, for Puerto Rico, all persons born in Puerto Rico between April 11, 1899, and January 12, 1941, are automatically conferred citizenship as of the date the law was signed by the President (June 27, 1952). Additionally, all persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, are natural-born citizens of the United States. Note that because of when the law was passed, for some, the natural-born status was retroactive.

The law contains one other section of historical note, concerning the Panama Canal Zone and the nation of Panama. In 8 USC 1403, the law states that anyone born in the Canal Zone or in Panama itself, on or after February 26, 1904, to a mother and/or father who is a United States citizen, was "declared" to be a United States citizen. Note that the terms "natural-born" or "citizen at birth" are missing from this section.

In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person."



http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html
 
Its good to know people here think its not an issue, but obvious McCain does, his team hired a bunch of legal experts to look into the matter... but of course, this is BGOL, you all know better than them/..:rolleyes:
 
Originally Posted by Dr. Truth
Wikipedia is not a valid source of information. Nothing will come out of this.

the article is not from wikipedia... its from the New York Times.

Which leads to another question..is even the New York Times a valid source of information? Or Fox News...I mean,

Where can I go to get unbias news?
 
Natural-born citizen

Who is a natural-born citizen? Who, in other words, is a citizen at birth, such that that person can be a President someday?

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.

Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.

Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402), Alaska (8 USC 1404), Hawaii (8 USC 1405), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406), and Guam (8 USC 1407). Each of these sections confer citizenship on persons living in these territories as of a certain date, and usually confer natural-born status on persons born in those territories after that date. For example, for Puerto Rico, all persons born in Puerto Rico between April 11, 1899, and January 12, 1941, are automatically conferred citizenship as of the date the law was signed by the President (June 27, 1952). Additionally, all persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, are natural-born citizens of the United States. Note that because of when the law was passed, for some, the natural-born status was retroactive.

The law contains one other section of historical note, concerning the Panama Canal Zone and the nation of Panama. In 8 USC 1403, the law states that anyone born in the Canal Zone or in Panama itself, on or after February 26, 1904, to a mother and/or father who is a United States citizen, was "declared" to be a United States citizen. Note that the terms "natural-born" or "citizen at birth" are missing from this section.

In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person."



http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

but the question remains, does "natural-born citizen" = "citizens of the United States at birth"?

or does it equal "born on american soil" it's really a matter of semantics. what did it mean at the time the constitution was written? What is the legal definition of "natural-born"?
 
no one questions whether he is a citizen.. read the article.. they are questioning the constitutional phrase "natural born citizen"

Doesnt matter. When Congress passes an amendment to a preexisting statute, it establishes
legal precedent. Y'all dont think someone in the Democratic party would have thought to raise
this issue if McCain wasnt Constitutionally permitted to be President? Y'all can go around
and round on this, and it is an interesting topic but sorta of a waste of time.
 
someone did raise the issue..and not just about McCain, did you read the article?

Doesnt matter. When Congress passes an amendment to a preexisting statute, it establishes
legal precedent. Y'all dont think someone in the Democratic party would have thought to raise
this issue if McCain wasnt Constitutionally permitted to be President? Y'all can go around
and round on this, and it is an interesting topic but sorta of a waste of time.
 
Doesnt matter. When Congress passes an amendment to a preexisting statute, it establishes
legal precedent. Y'all dont think someone in the Democratic party would have thought to raise
this issue if McCain wasnt Constitutionally permitted to be President? Y'all can go around
and round on this, and it is an interesting topic but sorta of a waste of time.
well it would be very risky to bring it up for the Democrats. it could turn the public against them.
 
ultimately i don't think there is a case against Mccain because according to the article, the intent was to prevent foreigners from becoming president.
 
true indeed. But like the lawyer said, both sides have a valid argument... and she said f she was on the Supreme Court, she would rule in favor of McCain.

ultimately i don't think there is a case against Mccain because according to the article, the intent was to prevent foreigners from becoming president.
 
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