MBA: Get Either Top Tier or Dirt Cheap, Everything Else is...?

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Like many students, Steve Vonderweidt hoped that a master's degree in business administration would open doors to a new job with a higher paycheck.


Soaring tuition costs, a weak labor market and a glut of recent graduates are upending the notion that M.B.A.s and other professional degrees are a sure ticket to financial success. WSJ's Ruth Simon reports on the News Hub. Photo: AP Images.
But now, about eight months after receiving his M.B.A. from the University of Louisville, Mr. Vonderweidt, 36 years old, hasn't been able to find a job in the private sector, and continues to work as an administrator at a social-service agency that helps Louisville residents obtain food stamps, health care and other assistance. He is saddled with about $75,000 in student-loan debt—much of it from graduate school.

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"It was a really great program," says Mr. Vonderweidt. "But the job part has been atrocious."

Soaring tuition costs, a weak labor market and a glut of recent graduates such as Mr. Vonderweidt are upending the notion that professional degrees like M.B.A.s are a sure ticket to financial success.

The M.B.A.'s lot is partly reflected in starting pay. While available figures vary by schools and employers, recruiters' expected median salary for newly hired M.B.A.s was essentially flat between 2008 and 2011, not adjusting for inflation, according to a survey by the Graduate Management Admission Council.


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For graduates with minimal experience—three years or less—median pay was $53,900 in 2012, down 4.6% from 2007-08, according to an analysis conducted for The Wall Street Journal by PayScale.com. Pay fell at 62% of the 186 schools examined.

Even for more seasoned grads the trend is similar, says Katie Bardaro, lead economist for PayScale.com. "In general, it seems that M.B.A. pay is either stagnant or falling," she says.

The pressures are greatest for those attending less prestigious schools, says Stanford Business School professor Paul Oyer, who studies personnel trends. But even at top programs, some graduates are likely to struggle in today's environment, he says.

Another burdensome issue: a high debt load. Nearly 60% of graduating M.B.A.s said they expected to repay some loans after graduation, according to a 2012 GMAC survey. Among households headed by people with student debt who attended graduate school and are under 35, average student loan debt climbed to $81,758 in 2010 according a Wall Street Journal analysis of Federal Reserve data. That figure is up from $55,594 in 2007.

It is all a far cry from the late 1980s and early 1990s heyday for M.B.A.s, when some companies would hire 100 or more M.B.A.s. It wasn't uncommon to recruit first, and fill actual jobs later.


With total student-loan debt approaching the trillion-dollar mark, WSJ's Jason Bellini deconstructs how we got here and what it all means. Image: Getty
"Some of those companies would hire today barely in the single-digits," says Mark Peterson, president of the M.B.A. Career Services Council.

A weak economic climate is only partly to blame for the M.B.A.'s plight. The changing nature of B-school programs, evolving corporate needs—as well as the perceived value of the degree—have all helped dilute the M.B.A.'s allure.

Formerly, the traditional M.B.A. was mainly the product of a full-time, two-year program. But beginning in the early 1990s, many schools created part-time and executive M.B.A. programs, with lower-ranked schools often following in the footsteps of academic leaders. Online degrees also gained in popularity.

As a result, the number of M.B.A. degrees granted has grown faster than the population, says Brooks Holtom, a management professor at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business.

"An M.B.A. is a club that is now not exclusive," he says. "You should not assume that this less exclusive club is going to confer the same benefits."

Today's global corporate culture amplifies the competition. "We are trying to internationalize our business like everyone else," says Lee Ashton, director of international human resources at spirits maker Brown-Forman Corp. BFB -1.63% With 58% of its business outside the U.S., the Louisville company has stepped up recruiting of M.B.A.s from abroad.

U.S. schools granted a record 126,214 masters degrees in business and administration in the 2010-2011 academic year, a 74% jump from 2000-2001, according to the Department of Education. The M.B.A. march is part of an overall boom in advanced degrees that took on added steam as some recent college graduates and others sought refuge from the recession by pursuing advanced degrees. Tuition and fees for full-time M.B.A. programs has risen 24% over the past three years, according to the main body that accredits U.S. business schools.

It is unclear how many M.B.A.s the market really needs. Recently, more companies have indicated that "they are moving away from an emphasis on M.B.A.s" and are instead hiring more undergraduates at lower salaries that they can then train in-house, says Camille Kelly, vice president of employer branding at Universum, a firm that advises companies on how to attract and retain the best employees. Companies, she says, "still will do M.B.A. hiring, but it won't be to the same extent they have in the past."

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Austin Koester for The Wall Street Journal
R. Charles Moyer, dean of the University of Louisville College of Business, says an MBA remains a 'terrific investment.
United Parcel Service Inc., UPS -0.29% which has a hub in Louisville, puts more emphasis on M.B.A.s and other grad-school types than it did five years ago. Still, know-how trumps all. "We're always going to look at the work experience first and how has that been enhanced through any advanced degree," says spokeswoman Susan Rosenberg.

The University of Louisville illustrates how some M.B.A. programs have struggled to remain attractive, and relevant, in this rocky environment.

R. Charles Moyer, dean of the College of Business, was recruited away from Wake Forest University in 2005 with a mandate to ramp up the Louisville M.B.A. program. Ten local business leaders had pledged to kick in roughly $10,000 each for five years toward his $350,000 paycheck.

Louisville "was growing at that time," recalls C. Edward Glasscock, a local attorney who helped spearhead the fundraising effort. "We had to make sure we had graduates to fill the workforce need."

Mr. Moyer tightened admission standards. Also, in 2007, he revamped the school's existing part-time M.B.A. program, made up of students who were pursuing degrees while working. Under the new program, groups of students moved together through classes over a two-year period, which was later shortened to 20 months.

He also added faculty, increased course options and introduced Saturday "enrichment programs" on negotiation skills, ethics and business etiquette. Three years ago, he introduced a full-time M.B.A. aimed at recent college graduates that includes a paid internship with a local employer. Next year, the school will begin another program for students with 12 to 15 years of work experience.

Mr. Moyer acknowledges that the growth in offerings was driven in part by a desire to boost revenues. "When I get a budget cut, I think about starting a new program," he says. "If we can do it really well and generate a lot of money, we can pour it back into our core business, which is undergraduate education."

Louisville now offers full- and part-time M.B.A.s as well as a highly regarded entrepreneurship program that in total enroll roughly 250 students—roughly a 10% increase since Mr. Moyer's arrival. With total tuition of $32,000, a Louisville M.B.A. is still a relative bargain. But the price tag has more than doubled under Mr. Moyer's tenure. Revenues from the M.B.A. programs have increased by more than 250%.

The dean says an M.B.A. degree remains a "terrific investment," though the returns might not be evident for "a year or two."

Indeed, some of the same companies that supported the Louisville M.B.A. program stress that experience, not the degree alone, opens the door to jobs.

Texas Roadhouse Inc., TXRH -1.94% a Louisville-based restaurant chain, donated a $200,000 student lounge to the B-school and has hired several M.B.A. students as interns and employees. But spokesman Travis Doster says restaurant experience carries more weight than an M.B.A. when the chain fills positions at its corporate office.

Nor does an M.B.A. guarantee a pay hike. "I haven't seen an automatic boost for any degree," says Kevin Stakelum, director of talent acquisition for Humana Inc., HUM -0.28% one of Louisville's largest employers. While an M.B.A. can be valuable, particularly in certain positions, "it's a piece of the entire puzzle."

Casting a wider net remains a challenge. "It's always difficult to get those upper-tier companies to come and recruit," says T. Vernon Foster, who oversees career services. "Once they do, they are always impressed."

Joshua Sickles, a 2010 graduate of the part-time program, figures his Louisville M.B.A. helped him land a promotion at UPS that added about $15,000 to his paycheck. "It was an investment in myself," says Mr. Sickles, who borrowed roughly $30,000 for his degree.

Other graduates have found returns to be more elusive. "It definitely did not open up a lot of opportunities right away," says Matthew Wilson, 29, a 2010 graduate who says having an M.B.A. wasn't a prerequisite for his current position in financial services. "I definitely would do it again," he says. "But I don't think it carries the same weight as it used to."
 
Man, this article is 100%. A Masters is a min, requirement in this job market, but it doesn't guarantee 6 figures like it use too. I tell any undergraduate to think real close about grad school and be sure this is something that they really want and need in their life....real talk
 
MBA turns an employee/student into a intrapreneur/entrepreneur
If you are really smart u dont need a MBA.
 
Man, this article is 100%. A Masters is a min, requirement in this job market, but it doesn't guarantee 6 figures like it use too. I tell any undergraduate to think real close about grad school and be sure this is something that they really want and need in their life....real talk

Not sure if I agree with the master's being a minimum requirement--but, I will say that the days of getting an MBA with no real work experience in a field & having a six figure job waiting for you at graduation are long gone--UNLESS you get a MBA from Harvard, Penn, Stanford, NYU, Dartmouth, etc--maybe like 10-14 schools total--if you can't get into those schools OR your job wont pay for it in full--I would pass.

MBA's can help you move up in your field--like in the case of someone who's an accountant & then gets a MBA with a concentration in accounting or something similar but that's it
 
Not sure if I agree with the master's being a minimum requirement--but, I will say that the days of getting an MBA with no real work experience in a field & having a six figure job waiting for you at graduation are long gone--UNLESS you get a MBA from Harvard, Penn, Stanford, NYU, Dartmouth, etc--maybe like 10-14 schools total--if you can't get into those schools OR your job wont pay for it in full--I would pass.

MBA's can help you move up in your field--like in the case of someone who's an accountant & then gets a MBA with a concentration in accounting or something similar but that's it


Spot on... That's what the article is saying... Expand that list to like 20-25 schools... But after that it's a waste--unless you go for completely free, or have a ton of experience in your field and just go partime somewhere...
 
I got accepted to a MBA program recently. Thought long and hard about registering for classes. Decided to pass on it just wasn't for me at the time.
 
I would think anybody interested in a MBA would become employed by an organization that would pay for it. So cost shouldn't matter.

So far, I've worked for four companies that will pay for an employee's Bachelor's and Master's degree.

Eventually, I'll finish up mine.
 
I would think anybody interested in a MBA would become employed by an organization that would pay for it. So cost shouldn't matter.

So far, I've worked for four companies that will pay for an employee's Bachelor's and Master's degree.

Eventually, I'll finish up mine.

Good for you! That's a rare find these days. Companies that used to no longer pay for an MBA... Top programs run about 110-175K for tuition and fees now...
 
The best thing you will get with an MBA no matter what school you go to is your network.In school you should network, network, network, go to the conferences build on relationships with fellow students who may have those connections, take advantage of your Graduate student association and Graduate advisers office.

I seen my sister go to a local school with a little known name MBA program and land a job making 125-150k+ after graduating . She was working in a non management position in her field before her MBA. Now she is at the Director level two things helped her, her ability to network and her MBA....

Now contrast that with a friend of mine that got into NYU Stern Business school. This guy has a reputation for being selfish and shady. I'm sure that rep followed him to business school, following graduation he was unemployed for 2 years and prob makes half of what my sister makes....

He went to a superior more expensive school but he ended up making was less
the key difference was my sister used her network to her advantage .... and he didnt
 
The best thing you will get with an MBA no matter what school you go to is your network.In school you should network, network, network, go to the conferences build on relationships with fellow students who may have those connections, take advantage of your Graduate student association and Graduate advisers office.

I seen my sister go to a local school with a little known name MBA program and land a job making 125-150k+ after graduating . She was working in a non management position in her field before her MBA. Now she is at the Director level two things helped her, her ability to network and her MBA....

Now contrast that with a friend of mine that got into NYU Stern Business school. This guy has a reputation for being selfish and shady. I'm sure that rep followed him to business school, following graduation he was unemployed for 2 years and prob makes half of what my sister makes....

He went to a superior more expensive school but he ended up making was less
the key difference was my sister used her network to her advantage .... and he didnt

Good points! Networking is very important... Can't say how many opportunities come out of non-traditional recruiting methods--like just being a friendly person! And going to events!

... I would say that the shady guy from NYU is an 'outlier'... Also schools like NYU have been absolutely devastated by Wall Street being a shell of what it used to be... Maybe the shady guy was focused on NYC finance (although being a dick is the worst thing you can be)....

MBA pay is gradually rising again since the collapse of 08' at the top 25 or so schools... The point is your MBA is worth a whole lot less if you're not at one of those... Or if you didn't get it free....
 
Good points! Networking is very important... Can't say how many opportunities come out of non-traditional recruiting methods--like just being a friendly person! And going to events!

... I would say that the shady guy from NYU is an 'outlier'... Also schools like NYU have been absolutely devastated by Wall Street being a shell of what it used to be... Maybe the shady guy was focused on NYC finance (although being a dick is the worst thing you can be)....

MBA pay is gradually rising again since the collapse of 08' at the top 25 or so schools... The point is your MBA is worth a whole lot less if you're not at one of those... Or if you didn't get it free....

I hear ya man, networking to me is the Key if you go to a top 25 business school then you just have a better network to take advantage of esp since some school are very vigilant in making sure their Students have ample opportunities once graduated.

All in all I think getting an advanced degree (in an accredited university) is well worth it esp if you take advantage of all the tools available to you, and esp if you employer is paying.

Also professional licenses and Certificates combined with those advanced degrees will open most doors needed. Imagine if you have your MBA combine it with a CPA, PMP, CFA, CFE, PHR or a series 7 license.... IMO that a great alternative for people who cant get into the top 25 Business schools also many companies will sponsor you.....

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Its all about execution regardless. People think you get your MBA and the doors just open and money falls out the sky.
 
I hear ya man, networking to me is the Key if you go to a top 25 business school then you just have a better network to take advantage of esp since some school are very vigilant in making sure their Students have ample opportunities once graduated.

All in all I think getting an advanced degree (in an accredited university) is well worth it esp if you take advantage of all the tools available to you, and esp if you employer is paying.

Also professional licenses and Certificates combined with those advanced degrees will open most doors needed. Imagine if you have your MBA combine it with a CPA, PMP, CFA, CFE, PHR or a series 7 license.... IMO that a great alternative for people who cant get into the top 25 Business schools also many companies will sponsor you.....

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On the corporate finance side i see a lot of MBA & CPAs, on the investment management/banking side a lot of MBA & CFAs... They are becoming much more common as combinations of degrees, where in the past that was never the case... Both the CPA an CFA are hard to get, but extremely useful!!!... If you want certain level jobs, it's real competitive out there!!!
 
On the corporate finance side i see a lot of MBA & CPAs, on the investment management/banking side a lot of MBA & CFAs... They are becoming much more common as combinations of degrees, where in the past that was never the case... Both the CPA an CFA are hard to get, but extremely useful!!!... If you want certain level jobs, it's real competitive out there!!!

Amen Brotha, but like my pops always told me, If it was easy everybody and they momma would have one! If you get a MBA/CFA or CPA your pretty much commanding a high six figure salary, and the opportunities will be plentifully...

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A CFA alone is worth way more than an MBA... but the CFA is an accreditation not attached to a degree the way a CPA is... A CFA is possible with a bachelor level degree

IMO - the MBA is really worthless, better to get a masters level degree in a discipline... and do a time management course.
Today's business models are looking for agility and flexibility = smaller organizations
MBAs are very effective for large organizations, but medium to small?

Across all organizations these degrees:
Masters Mathamatics
Masters Finance
Masters Information Technology /Management
Masters Computer Science
Masters Communication
Masters Engineering (any Engineering, chemical, civil, electrical, computer)

Any of the above will profit you more by far than an MBA
 
A CFA alone is worth way more than an MBA... but the CFA is an accreditation not attached to a degree the way a CPA is... A CFA is possible with a bachelor level degree

IMO - the MBA is really worthless, better to get a masters level degree in a discipline... and do a time management course.
Today's business models are looking for agility and flexibility = smaller organizations
MBAs are very effective for large organizations, but medium to small?

Across all organizations these degrees:
Masters Mathamatics
Masters Finance
Masters Information Technology /Management
Masters Computer Science
Masters Communication
Masters Engineering (any Engineering, chemical, civil, electrical, computer)

Any of the above will profit you more by far than an MBA

:lol:

I'm sorry, but that is absolute nonsense... If you're at a lower tier program, then yes, an MBA is questionable, however....

The MBA is flexible, you can do most types of finance, marketing, strategy, consulting jobs... CFA is a finance related certification, and is even more worthwhile within certain niches of finance...

...Another point is that a credible MBA program has ESTABLISHED RECRUITING PIPELINES... meaning you may be interviewing for six figure salary positions even BEFORE you matriculate into the fulltime MBA program once you're accepted...

...If you know u want to be in an area of finance for the long haul, then get a CFA, however it will take AT LEAST 3 years to do so, although it is probably on average 300K cheaper than a top fulltime MBA program (making opportunity cost only 100K/yr...
 
A CFA alone is worth way more than an MBA... but the CFA is an accreditation not attached to a degree the way a CPA is... A CFA is possible with a bachelor level degree

IMO - the MBA is really worthless, better to get a masters level degree in a discipline... and do a time management course.
Today's business models are looking for agility and flexibility = smaller organizations
MBAs are very effective for large organizations, but medium to small?

Across all organizations these degrees:
Masters Mathamatics
Masters Finance
Masters Information Technology /Management
Masters Computer Science
Masters Communication
Masters Engineering (any Engineering, chemical, civil, electrical, computer)

Any of the above will profit you more by far than an MBA

:lol: @ an MBA being worthless .. :smh:

Go to any job board and type MBA, CFA, and CPA... let use Indeed.com for example.... look at the job search results in avalibility and salary .....


MBA
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=MBA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (3014)
$80,000+ (2465)
$100,000+ (1740)
$120,000+ (1127)
$150,000+ (591)

CPA

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=CPA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (2764)
$80,000+ (2175)
$100,000+ (1477)
$120,000+ (910)
$140,000+ (543)

CFA
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=CFA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (414)
$80,000+ (340)
$100,000+ (238)
$120,000+ (168)
$150,000+ (92)
 
:lol: @ an MBA being worthless .. :smh:

Go to any job board and type MBA, CFA, and CPA... let use Indeed.com for example.... look at the job search results in avalibility and salary .....


MBA
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=MBA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (3014)
$80,000+ (2465)
$100,000+ (1740)
$120,000+ (1127)
$150,000+ (591)

CPA

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=CPA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (2764)
$80,000+ (2175)
$100,000+ (1477)
$120,000+ (910)
$140,000+ (543)

CFA
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=CFA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (414)
$80,000+ (340)
$100,000+ (238)
$120,000+ (168)
$150,000+ (92)

:lol: Good work (took 5 mins I bet) Also if we got more detailed I'm sure many of the CFA jobs require more industry specific experience than the MBA... And one can sometimes interchange the MBA for the CFA, but doesn't work the other way around for employers... MBAs get CFA jobs all the time, CFAs wont get hired in Strategy at 3M

And just to rub it in... just know that tons of ppl get CFAs just to be able to get accepted at Top MBA Programs! doesn't work the other way around...

Like I said, with real work experience, in a specific niche, and with a good undergrad, you can make the CFA work... It's a great designation to have...
 
:lol:

I'm sorry, but that is absolute nonsense... If you're at a lower tier program, then yes, an MBA is questionable, however....

The MBA is flexible, you can do most types of finance, marketing, strategy, consulting jobs... CFA is a finance related certification, and is even more worthwhile within certain niches of finance...

...Another point is that a credible MBA program has ESTABLISHED RECRUITING PIPELINES... meaning you may be interviewing for six figure salary positions even BEFORE you matriculate into the fulltime MBA program once you're accepted...

...If you know u want to be in an area of finance for the long haul, then get a CFA, however it will take AT LEAST 3 years to do so, although it is probably on average 300K cheaper than a top fulltime MBA program (making opportunity cost only 100K/yr...
I don't agree with you... There is a lot of grey area in management, and positions that don't match degree discipline.
The CFA isn't a niche - Its in demand at every investment bank, and it trumps the MBA if you're in finance.
The MBA while applicable to many professions isn't as profitable... but a Masters in Mathematics or Engineering or Communications gets you in door at executive level in ANY industry... of the others I listed switch Communications with Physics degree, that's whats in the $$ in the financial world RIGHT NOW.

If you know what you want to do, get a masters in a technical discipline that aligns with you, the ones I listed translate to any industry, but even with an MBA you're being unrealistic if you think you will be jumping into different industries... The more experience you build in niches of fashion, law or healthcare or finance, etc.. the more recruiters and employers are very reluctant to let you jump, and even then compensation packages are going to be heavily influenced by the direct experience you bring to the role.
 
:lol: Good work (took 5 mins I bet) Also if we got more detailed I'm sure many of the CFA jobs require more industry specific experience than the MBA... And one can sometimes interchange the MBA for the CFA, but doesn't work the other way around for employers... MBAs get CFA jobs all the time, CFAs wont get hired in Strategy at 3M

And just to rub it in... just know that tons of ppl get CFAs just to be able to get accepted at Top MBA Programs! doesn't work the other way around...

Like I said, with real work experience, in a specific niche, and with a good undergrad, you can make the CFA work... It's a great designation to have...
The CFA and MBA are not interchangeable, but if you're in finance the CFA is MUCH more valuable, especially on the trade floor or any trade related positions.

Dude in the real world, if you have an MBA but your experience is solidly finance trading front /back office, technical analysis, or you run a department for credit, etc... you're not going to be recruited or hired by 3M either. But a Masters in Finance with the same history would be recruited by 3M.

As I said before, if you build experience in certain roles, those fields are what you can get max compensation for in future. So get a MS in something like Finance, Math, Engineering, all pay more than MBA, and can be flipped HARDER when you jump industries.
 
The CFA and MBA are not interchangeable, but if you're in finance the CFA is MUCH more valuable, especially on the trade floor or any trade related positions.

Dude in the real world, if you have an MBA but your experience is solidly finance trading front /back office, technical analysis, or you run a department for credit, etc... you're not going to be recruited or hired by 3M either. But a Masters in Finance with the same history would be recruited by 3M.

As I said before, if you build experience in certain roles, those fields are what you can get max compensation for in future. So get a MS in something like Finance, Math, Engineering, all pay more than MBA, and can be flipped HARDER when you jump industries.


:smh:
.... Peep game


http://www.fins.com/Finance/Articles/SBB0001424052702303772904577334061709599508/Oh-the-Decision-M-B-A-or-a-Masters-in-Finance

"Comparing Job Placement

At MIT, big name employers like Barclays Capital, J.P. Morgan Chase and Bank of America Merrill Lynch hired Master of Finance students this year. Median base salary for MIT finance graduates is $105,000 compared with $119,000 for M.B.A. While salaries are comparable, job opportunities are narrower in scope. "Graduates primarily focus career opportunities solely with financial service firms or finance positions," MIT's Pickett explains.

"M.B.A.s often serve as formal or informal coaches for our less experienced MS Finance students," Vanderbilt's Gore says. "For example, a second year M.B.A. who is seeking a full-time associate position at an investment bank can provide a great deal of insight, advice, and networking introductions to an MS Finance student seeking an analyst position in the industry."

I don't know where your getting this Masters of ________ are MUCH more valuable nonsense.... one of my buddies has a master in chemical engineering and is studying for the Gmats right now because he wants an edge to get into upper management in his feild...... I personally know a Phd who is a Sr. Biometrical Fellow @ Novartis doing his fully sponsored MBA right now so he can move into Sr. management easier. You keep saying other master degrees are MUCH more valuable but leave out the stats.... give me some data/info!

:laptop:
 
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:lol: @ an MBA being worthless .. :smh:

Go to any job board and type MBA, CFA, and CPA... let use Indeed.com for example.... look at the job search results in avalibility and salary .....


MBA
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=MBA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (3014)
$80,000+ (2465)
$100,000+ (1740)
$120,000+ (1127)
$150,000+ (591)

CPA

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=CPA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (2764)
$80,000+ (2175)
$100,000+ (1477)
$120,000+ (910)
$140,000+ (543)

CFA
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=CFA&l=NYC&rs=1

$60,000+ (414)
$80,000+ (340)
$100,000+ (238)
$120,000+ (168)
$150,000+ (92)


I was arguing MBA vs specific disciplines... in today's world IMO a Masters in Math, Finance, Engineering, MIS, Telecom, Communications are more lucrative than an MBA.

But lets look at CFA jobs, the most lucrative in NYC aren't listed under CFA, but in quant and trade support, also front office / sales/ traders (for these search fixed income, fx, credit derivatives) also consider none of the numbers listed on indeed include bonuses, all positions below are trade associated, and have contracts, most contracts on the street for funds or banks stipulate bonuses are to always exceed or AT LEAST equal salary.

trade support http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=trade+settlement&l=NYC
Salary Estimate
$50,000+ (250)
$70,000+ (187)
$90,000+ (132)
$110,000+ (68)
$130,000+ (46)

quant http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=quant&l=NYC
Salary Estimate
$70,000+ (371)
$100,000+ (289)
$120,000+ (230)
$140,000+ (147)
$200,000+ (74)
You can weed out the programming positions listed in quants but you'll get the idea...
 
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:smh:
.... Peep game


http://www.fins.com/Finance/Articles/SBB0001424052702303772904577334061709599508/Oh-the-Decision-M-B-A-or-a-Masters-in-Finance

"Comparing Job Placement

At MIT, big name employers like Barclays Capital, J.P. Morgan Chase and Bank of America Merrill Lynch hired Master of Finance students this year. Median base salary for MIT finance graduates is $105,000 compared with $119,000 for M.B.A. While salaries are comparable, job opportunities are narrower in scope. "Graduates primarily focus career opportunities solely with financial service firms or finance positions," MIT's Pickett explains.

"M.B.A.s often serve as formal or informal coaches for our less experienced MS Finance students," Vanderbilt's Gore says. "For example, a second year M.B.A. who is seeking a full-time associate position at an investment bank can provide a great deal of insight, advice, and networking introductions to an MS Finance student seeking an analyst position in the industry."

I don't know where your getting this Masters of ________ are MUCH more valuable nonsense.... one of my buddies has a master in chemical engineering and is studying for the Gmats right now because he wants an edge to get into upper management in his feild...... I personally know a Phd who is a Sr. Biometrical Fellow @ Novartis doing his fully sponsored MBA right now so he can move into Sr. management easier. You keep saying other master degrees are MUCH more valuable but leave out the stats.... give me some data/info!

:laptop:
Look we're talking about 2 different things -a fresh college grad ain't where I'm at or what I'm talking about, if you have 5 to 10 years experience under your belt and you go for a masters or MBA, its a different world... the key word in that article said the students with a MS Finance limited their job focus, I'm willing to put money most of them haven't done a few laps in corporate America, there are so many high paying jobs that aren't talked about in school that people fall into in the grey zones of hybrid disciplines and skill sets...

I'm telling all of you on my experience of +15 yrs of working jobs people never heard of in corporate America and start ups, that a specific advanced degree will take you further than an MBA, especially if its Math or Engineering. If your company is only sponsoring MBA- take it, but if you have a choice, I recommend you take the specific discipline.

By the way I had a feeler from a recruiter from Novartis, how does your friend like the culture there, is it aggressive, very rigid, or do the Swiss have good management team?

You asked for data, but I don't have any metrics for you...
 
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A CFA alone is worth way more than an MBA... but the CFA is an accreditation not attached to a degree the way a CPA is... A CFA is possible with a bachelor level degree

IMO - the MBA is really worthless, better to get a masters level degree in a discipline... and do a time management course.
Today's business models are looking for agility and flexibility = smaller organizations
MBAs are very effective for large organizations, but medium to small?

Across all organizations these degrees:
Masters Mathematics
Masters Finance
Masters Information Technology /Management
Masters Computer Science

Masters Communication
Masters Engineering (any Engineering, chemical, civil, electrical, computer)

Any of the above will profit you more by far than an MBA


This. I'm not getting into the debate whether a CFA is of higher caliber than an MBA, but these degrees and certifications have higher preferences in certain industries in relation to your experience level. I got an MBA from a lower tier school and am pursuing a combination of certificates (PMP for one) in order to show more value and demand a higher salary. I don't have the finance experience on my side and will have to settle for a relatively lower salary b/c of that, but I'm highly confident that had I gone to a more prominent program, I'd been good. Although, I can't complain, because I obtained an MBA debt-free. :D

On to the future.
 
:smh:
.... Peep game


http://www.fins.com/Finance/Articles/SBB0001424052702303772904577334061709599508/Oh-the-Decision-M-B-A-or-a-Masters-in-Finance

"Comparing Job Placement

At MIT, big name employers like Barclays Capital, J.P. Morgan Chase and Bank of America Merrill Lynch hired Master of Finance students this year. Median base salary for MIT finance graduates is $105,000 compared with $119,000 for M.B.A. While salaries are comparable, job opportunities are narrower in scope. "Graduates primarily focus career opportunities solely with financial service firms or finance positions," MIT's Pickett explains.

"M.B.A.s often serve as formal or informal coaches for our less experienced MS Finance students," Vanderbilt's Gore says. "For example, a second year M.B.A. who is seeking a full-time associate position at an investment bank can provide a great deal of insight, advice, and networking introductions to an MS Finance student seeking an analyst position in the industry."

I don't know where your getting this Masters of ________ are MUCH more valuable nonsense.... one of my buddies has a master in chemical engineering and is studying for the Gmats right now because he wants an edge to get into upper management in his feild...... I personally know a Phd who is a Sr. Biometrical Fellow @ Novartis doing his fully sponsored MBA right now so he can move into Sr. management easier. You keep saying other master degrees are MUCH more valuable but leave out the stats.... give me some data/info!

:laptop:

Great Job... MIT, Columbia, Carnegie Mellon(I believe), and Vanderbuilt is in there... They are top Masters in Finance programs in America/World...

I was arguing MBA vs specific disciplines... in today's world IMO a Masters in Math, Finance, Engineering, MIS, Telecom, Communications are more lucrative than an MBA.

But lets look at CFA jobs, the most lucrative in NYC aren't listed under CFA, but in quant and trade support, also front office / sales/ traders (for these search fixed income, fx, credit derivatives) also consider none of the numbers listed on indeed include bonuses, all positions below are trade associated, and have contracts, most contracts on the street for funds or banks stipulate bonuses are to always exceed or AT LEAST equal salary.

trade support http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=trade+settlement&l=NYC
Salary Estimate
$50,000+ (250)
$70,000+ (187)
$90,000+ (132)
$110,000+ (68)
$130,000+ (46)

quant http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=quant&l=NYC
Salary Estimate
$70,000+ (371)
$100,000+ (289)
$120,000+ (230)
$140,000+ (147)
$200,000+ (74)
You can weed out the programming positions listed in quants but you'll get the idea...

Vicious, I'm enjoying this conversation bro, but I don't think you know what you're talking about (please don't take offense, but you really do not... I could have multi-quoted everything you said, but too lazy.... Let me list why)...

1. You do know that trading is dying right? Banks are laying off left and right due to the Dodd Frank and other regulations, banks can no longer afford it... Just Google it and you'll see what's happening every day... Even MBAs (who would traditionally be sales, not traders, no longer actively recruit in sales much...)...

2. High Frequency trading is still doing well. If you have a Masters in Finance from a top school AND have a Undergrad/Masters in computer science, you may be able to network in... Even those spots are in flux, and govt regulation has it in its sights (see Knight Capital, etc)...

3. Let me list you the companies/positions that recruit for MBAs from the top 20 schools (notice only gave you a few schools in Masters in Finance, etc)--Google (Marketing, Corporate Dev, Corp Fin, Strategy), All of the remaining Investment Banks (any position in the bank excepting lower level ops, and trading--like i mentioned, trading is dead), JUST ABOUT EVERY FORTUNE 500 COMPANY (Corp Finance, Corporate Development, Marketing, Strategy)...

4. MBAs make more money, get signing bonuses, and are immediately put on fastracks to Executive Level...

5. Average work experience of MBA is 5-10 years... AND they career switch every day (Not as successfully as when market is hot, but you get consultants who become bankers, or accountants who become Marketers EVERY DAY...)

6. MBAs HAVE TONS OF COMPANIES THAT COME TO CAMPUS TO HIRE THEM...

7. So many professional organizations to network....

We know the market is bad in general... America isn't doing great. MBAs are struggling. The top 20 MBAs may no longer have 10 offers after graduation, but there's still a job for most. They're staffing numbers 3 months out of MBA still average at about 85-90%... And those jobs are mostly the jobs i've listed...


Although this will change as we look to the future (don't know how...), this gives 'an idea'...

Business School 20 Year Total Median Pay 20 Years Out Median Pay 10 Years Out
1. Harvard Business School $3,606,601 $217,000 $169,000
2. Pennsylvania (Wharton) $3,340,334 $200,000 $155,000
3. Stanford $3,291,894 $211,000 $157,000
4. Columbia $3,203,292 $188,000 $153,000
5. Dartmouth (Tuck) $3,092,471 $172,000 $145,000
6. MIT (Sloan) $3,056,072 $180,000 $137,000
7. Northwestern (Kellogg) $3,034,837 $195,000 $135,000
8. California (Berkeley) $2,951,549 $174,000 $135,000
9. Chicago (Booth) $2,919,270 $192,000 $132,000
10. Virginia (Darden) $2,883,197 $179,000 $137,000
11. Yale School of Management $2,838,664 $159,000 $141,000
12. Duke (Fuqua) $2,814,183 $172,000 $132,000
13. Cornell (Johnson) $2,785,912 $173,000 $128,000
14. New York (Stern) $2,725,321 $163,000 $124,000
15. UCLA (Anderson) $2,702,338 $159,000 $131,000
16. Emory (Goizueta) $2,701,743 $178,000 $121,000
17. Carnegie Mellon (Tepper) $2,654,521 $159,000 $126,000
18. Georgetown (McDonough) $2,618,025 $170,000 $115,000
19. Vanderbilt (Owen) $2,595,074 $170,000 $122,000
20. North Carolina (Kenan-Flagler) $2,569,966 $158,000 $116,000
21. Notre Dame (Mendoza) $2,554,927 $154,000 $125,000
22. Texas-Austin (McCombs) $2,529,283 $166,000 $120,000
23. Michigan (Ross) $2,495,495 $143,000 $118,000
24. Southern California (Marshall) $2,446,050 $143,000 $118,000
25. Rice (Jones) $2,443,862 $143,000 $121,000
 
And I didn't want to Colin Powell you guys too much last time, but based on my last post, this tells you that the numbers you saw are vastly under-reported--MBAs are making way more than that 10 years and 20 years out... That is a fact!... Please read...

FASCINATING DATA SHOWS HOW PAYSCALE IS VASTLY UNDER-ESTIMATING EARNINGS

Consider the data from Harvard’s Class of 1986 which held its 25th alumni reunion last year. In a reunion survey not intended for publication (See “25 Years Later: A Revealing Class Portrait Of The Lives of Harvard MBAs”), MBAs in the class reported their median income at $350,000 a year–way above the Payscale calculation of $224,000 at the 20-year mark. More interestingly, one in four members of the class said they were making a million or more annually. And 25 years after receiving their MBAs, class members reported that their median personal net worth was $6 million–considerably more than the $3.6 million in total career earnings reported by Payscale. Assuming that these Harvard MBAs have at least another 12 to 15 productive years of work ahead of them, it’s likely they would exceed the entire career estimate by Payscale in their final stretch alone.

Similar issues exist throughout the data reported by Payscale, particularly when applied to the top schools. At Dartmouth College’s Tuck School, for example, Payscale reported that salary and bonus five years after graduation was just $128,000. But the school’s official numbers show that the median total pay package for a Class of 2011 graduate was $169,000, while the mean was $180,000. Those sums include annual base salary, signing and performance bonuses, relocation expenses, tuition reimbursement, and “other compensation.”

The reason for the discrepancy has to do with the way Payscale calculates its estimates. The pay reports the firm uses are “for groups of people who graduated from the same school at various times, not for one group of people who reported their pay throughout their careers.” The estimates, moreover, do not include the value of stock or stock options or the value of tuition reimbursement, which can make up a big chunk of MBA pay in the short- and the long-term. Stock gains alone could easily double the salary-and-bonus estimates.

It’s also possible that the most highly compensation alums are less likely to report their income to Payscale which makes these estimates based on what it says is a database of 100,000 MBA graduates.
 
A CFA alone is worth way more than an MBA... but the CFA is an accreditation not attached to a degree the way a CPA is... A CFA is possible with a bachelor level degree

IMO - the MBA is really worthless, better to get a masters level degree in a discipline... and do a time management course.
Today's business models are looking for agility and flexibility = smaller organizations
MBAs are very effective for large organizations, but medium to small?

Across all organizations these degrees:
Masters Mathamatics
Masters Finance
Masters Information Technology /Management
Masters Computer Science
Masters Communication
Masters Engineering (any Engineering, chemical, civil, electrical, computer)

Any of the above will profit you more by far than an MBA

This is ridiculous. :hmm::hmm::hmm:

Does anyone who's shitting on an MBA in this thread actually have one? Or at least SOME masters degree?

-CTF
 
This is ridiculous. :hmm::hmm::hmm:

Does anyone who's shitting on an MBA in this thread actually have one? Or at least SOME masters degree?

-CTF

Lmao, word! Fuck what a hater say! I graduate in May with an MBA, Its not at a top 20 program but at a very well known and respected Tier 1 University my company sponsoring me through tuition reimbursement . My lady is also being sponsored 100% by her job in a Masters program from a well known state university, we both graduate in May...

To call an advanced degree worthless is foolish, esp for a black man...


Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 
A CFA alone is worth way more than an MBA... but the CFA is an accreditation not attached to a degree the way a CPA is... A CFA is possible with a bachelor level degree

IMO - the MBA is really worthless, better to get a masters level degree in a discipline... and do a time management course.
Today's business models are looking for agility and flexibility = smaller organizations
MBAs are very effective for large organizations, but medium to small?

Across all organizations these degrees:
Masters Mathamatics
Masters Finance
Masters Information Technology /Management
Masters Computer Science
Masters Communication
Masters Engineering (any Engineering, chemical, civil, electrical, computer)

Any of the above will profit you more by far than an MBA

I concur. I am doing just fine with my Master's in Chemistry. Even with my advanced degree, I have thought long and hard about going back to get the MBA. After weighing all my options I decided not to do it and I am happy about my decision.
 
Lmao, word! Fuck what a hater say! I graduate in May with an MBA, Its not at a top 20 program but at a very well known and respected Tier 1 University my company sponsoring me through tuition reimbursement . My lady is also being sponsored 100% by her job in a Masters program from a well known state university, we both graduate in May...

To call an advanced degree worthless is foolish, esp for a black man...


Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

CONGRATS... You've got the right idea.... Those who don't really know cn continue to think it's worthless.. You did right way getting some money to go...

Good shit black man!
 
^^^ Thanks fam! I'm trying.... I plan on getting a couple of professional licences/ certs when I'm done!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 
This is ridiculous. :hmm::hmm::hmm:

Does anyone who's shitting on an MBA in this thread actually have one? Or at least SOME masters degree?

-CTF

If you want to be a Portfolio Manager or an Equity Research Associate then get a CFA, but I don't see the relevance outside of that. I've worked in Retail Banking as a Branch Manager, Public Finance as a Public Finance Banker, and presently as a Loans Fund Manager and I didn't need a CFA to run a Loan Portfolio. However, I have an MBA with a specialization in Finance and that has helped me a lot through my career.
 
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