losing to get ahead - DOES THE THEORY WORK?

[cranrab]

with all of the talk about the memphis grizzlies losing on purpose in order to secure a better hold on the #1 pick in the draft, i have to wonder if it's worth it.

first, it's unethical. second, it's unprofessional. third, what sort of athlete and competitor would want to participate in that type of subterfuge?

let's take a look at what happened in 1997.

the 7 teams that finished worst (in order from worst to "best"):

vancouver
boston
san antonio
denver
76ers
mavericks
nets

some allege that san antonio held david robinson out on purpose in order to tank the season and get a better draft position, but as you can see, EVEN IF THAT WAS TRUE, they didn't get better than 3rd position. furthermore, he broke his left foot in december. how soon could the spurs have brought him back?

the draft order turned out to be:

san antonio
76ers
boston
vancouver
denver
boston
nets

so i say it's not worth it. being last guarantees you NOTHING. and losing on purpose generates a losing culture.

 

[SpiritualPorn]

Fully agree

Hate to bring up our most talked about topic however..........

This is the exact reason Kobe , in my opinion, will never be a champion.

When you refuse to shoot to prove a point it is similar to tanking games to get high in the draft..

Once you allow that horse out the barn it's hell to keep in there

Pandoras box

 

[RunawaySlave]

After watching Larry Brown coach the Knicks last year,
I have no DOUBT, that he is capable of tanking ballgames

I am sure that he did it with the Spurs back then. Just as
I am sure that teams how out their stars at this time of the
season when they deem their is "nothing to play for"
(as if the thousands of fans who are still paying hundreds
of dollars per game to watch them are nothing)

Anyway, it doesn't make a difference nowadays. Because
so many teams do it, that it all pans out.

 

[cranrab]

I am sure that teams how out their stars at this time of the season when they deem their is "nothing to play for"
(as if the thousands of fans who are still paying hundreds
of dollars per game to watch them are nothing)

this IS standard practice. like ray allen opting for season ending (and pain ending) surgery when the sonics have no chance for the playoffs.

but that's different from the motive that i questioned in making this thread.

i'm talking about teams who supposedly tank to get better draft position. the "lottery" effectively defeats the idea.

 

[cranrab]

here's how 2006 teams finished worst to "best"

blazers
knicks
bobcats
hawks
raptors

but here's how the top 5 picks ended up:

raptors
bulls
bobcats
blazers
timberwolves

 

[cranrab]

here's how 2005 teams finished worst to "best":

hawks
hornets
bobcats
jazz
blazers
bucks

here's the 2005 draft order:

bucks
hawks
jazz
hornets
bobcats
blazers

 

[cranrab]

2004 actually held to the percentages. but only for the worst team. you can see that the rest of the order didn't hold to the percentages.

here's how the 2004 teams finished worst to "best":

magic
bulls
wizards
hawks
clippers
suns

here's the draft order:

magic
bobcats
bulls
clippers
wizards
hawks

 

[RunawaySlave]

I know this isn't the topic, but I thought this was a good place to post
what I have to say:

In the last 2 weeks, NBA players are dropping like flies.
These players are not "injured", they are merely starting
their "vacations" (as if they do any real work) early.

They are ripping off the fans right now. Case in point:
Zach Randolph, had a leave of absence for "bereavment"
2 weeks ago, was seen PARTYING in a strip club back in
Portland. After getting outted in the local newspapers, he
came back to the team. A few days later, he was out for
the rest of the season with some phantom injury (I say
phantom because the previous game, dude went off for
like 32 and 12)

LaMarcus Aldridge, who Randolph has sort of taken under
his "wing", is now out for the next 4 games because of
"dizziness". I am estimating that soon, they will shut him down
for the rest of the season as well. I bet he won't be too
"dizzy" to follow Big Zach into the club and throw a few back

Far be it from me to deny the brothas their enjoyment. I'd
prolly be there in the club with them (if there were some
sistas there), but these guys are paid great sums of money
for very little work. The least they could do is finish the damn
"job" they are paid to do

I don't believe one of these so called "injuries" is real. That is
where this aligns with the theory of "tanking" games comes in.
These men could easily still be playing ball if they wanted to.
When teams holding key players out of games, they are denying
the fans the right to enjoy the games. These fans pay vast sums
of money, not to mention spends loads of time to support the
franchises. They get just as many injuries on their jobs as these
players do. Yet the fans NEVER get to cut it short like that.
NBA teams and players need to stop shitting on the fans

Or else I think the fans need to take their money (and time) OUT
of this shit. Let Stern take the show to China, or Yugoslavia or
some shit.

 

[cranrab]

RS' observation taken to the extreme



Banged-up Celtics sign Pinkney
/ Associated Press
Posted: 2 hours ago

BOSTON (AP) - The Boston Celtics signed forward Kevinn Pinkney to a 10-day contract, giving them a ninth available player for Wednesday's game against the Milwaukee Bucks.

Paul Pierce (sore left elbow), Brian Scalabrine (strained left hamstring) and Al Jefferson (bruised left knee) did not make the trip to Milwaukee. The Celtics asked to be allowed to add a 16th player to their roster, and the NBA allowed it.

Pinkney was an All-Star for the Bakersfield Jam of the NBA Development League, where he averaged 18.6 points and 7.2 rebounds per game.

 

[cranrab]

nobody gets a pass

it's the april sick out:

Sinus inflammation sends Wallace to hospital
/ Associated Press
Posted: 2 hours ago

CHICAGO (AP) - Chicago Bulls center Ben Wallace will miss Wednesday's game at Detroit after being taken to a hospital with inflammation in his sinus.

Wallace was expected to return home with the team and be evaluated Thursday, the club said.
A four-time defensive player of the year, Wallace spent six seasons with the Pistons before signing a four-year, $60 million deal with the Bulls last summer. He is averaging 6.4 points and 10.8 rebounds.

 

[cranrab]

RS says "show me the damn doctor's note!"

LaMarcus Aldridge, who Randolph has sort of taken under his "wing", is now out for the next 4 games because of
"dizziness". I am estimating that soon, they will shut him down
for the rest of the season as well. I bet he won't be too
"dizzy" to follow Big Zach into the club and throw a few back

Rookie Aldridge out indefinitely
/ Associated Press
Posted: 2 hours ago

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Portland Trail Blazers rookie LaMarcus Aldridge is out indefinitely after experiencing dizziness and a rapid heartbeat.

He played seven minutes in Saturday's loss to the Los Angeles Clippers before he was taken to the hospital. After he wore a heart monitor for 24 hours, the team asked for additional tests on Aldridge, initially diagnosed with dehydration.
The nature of the tests was not revealed.

"We are going to run more tests and get a more accurate diagnosis so we can treat it," Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard said. "That's the biggest thing right now. We're in a ruling-out process."

Travis Outlaw was expected to start in Aldridge's place Wednesday night for Portland's game against the Utah Jazz. Aldridge had taken over the starter's job when Joel Przybilla had season-ending knee surgery.

The Blazers also signed center Luke Schenscher for the remainder of the season.

Portland signed the 7-foot-1 Schenscher to a 10-day contract from the development league's Fort Worth Flyers on March 15, and re-signed him to another 10-day contract March 25.

 

[RunawaySlave]

That coaching change sure worked wonders for the T-Wolves
didn't it??

(yes, that was sarcasm)

 

[RunawaySlave]

Tonight's Boxscore for the Spurs game:

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"><td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18" width="18%"> Name</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">Min</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="8%">FG</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="8%">3Pt</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="8%">FT</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="8%">Off</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">Reb</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">Ast</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">TO</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">Stl</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">Blk</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">PF</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="8%">Pts </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td align="left"> B. Bowen</td> <td>13</td> <td>0-1</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>0 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td align="left"> J. Butler</td> <td>28</td> <td>5-11</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>2-2</td> <td>4</td> <td>10</td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>12 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td align="left"> F. Elson</td> <td>12</td> <td>1-6</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>2-2</td> <td>3</td> <td>6</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td align="left"> J. White</td> <td>38</td> <td>8-14</td> <td>1-3</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>1</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>3</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>17 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td align="left"> J. Vaughn</td> <td>25</td> <td>1-7</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>2-2</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>7</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td align="left"> M. Finley</td> <td>23</td> <td>7-11</td> <td>3-3</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>17 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td align="left"> R. Horry</td> <td>21</td> <td>4-7</td> <td>2-4</td> <td>1-2</td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>11 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td align="left"> F. Oberto</td> <td>9</td> <td>2-5</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td align="left"> B. Udrih</td> <td>28</td> <td>5-13</td> <td>2-5</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>9</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>12 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td align="left"> M. Bonner</td> <td>23</td> <td>3-4</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>4-4</td> <td>3</td> <td>10</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>10 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td align="left"> M. Ely</td> <td>14</td> <td>0-5</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="center"> <td align="left"> B. Barry</td> <td colspan="12">DNP - Tummy Ache</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="center"> <td align="left"> T. Duncan</td> <td colspan="12">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="center"> <td align="left"> M. Ginobili</td> <td colspan="12">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="center"> <td align="left"> T. Parker</td> <td colspan="12">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr3"> <td colspan="13" height="1">
</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="right"> <td align="left" height="18"> Totals</td> <td>234</td> <td>36-84</td> <td>8-15</td> <td>11-12</td> <td>14</td> <td>40</td> <td>24</td> <td>14</td> <td>8</td> <td>6</td> <td>20</td> <td>91</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[xfactor]

Interesting statement made after the Celtics game vs. the Milwaukee Bucks last Friday:

"I probably (would have played), but since we were in the hunt for a high draft pick, of course things are different," Gomes said. "I understand that. Hopefully things get better. Now that we clinched at least having the second-most balls in the lottery, the last three games we'll see what happens. We'll see if we can go out and finish some games."

Source - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007041302

 

[RunawaySlave]

Even the coaches are taking days off:


Woodson to miss Atlanta's road finale with food poisoning

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"><spacer type="block" height="1" width="1"></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yspsctnhdln"> Woodson to miss Atlanta's road finale with food poisoning
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="7"><spacer type="block" height="1" width="1"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> April 16, 2007

MILWAUKEE (AP) -- Mike Woodson was not expected to coach Atlanta's final road game against the Milwaukee Bucks on Monday night because of food poisoning.

The team said that assistant coach Larry Drew would lead the team in Woodson's absence.

Woodson, in his third year coaching the Hawks after being an assistant in Detroit, Cleveland and Milwaukee, has an overall record of 68-176. Atlanta is 29-51 this season, the fourth-worst record in the league.

Updated on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 6:38 pm EDT
​

Do Josh Smith have to poison a bitch??

 

[cranrab]

Interesting statement made after the Celtics game vs. the Milwaukee Bucks last Friday

flashback to the 1980's chicago bulls.

 

[cranrab]

Do Josh Smith have to poison a bitch??

 

[RunawaySlave]

Tonight's Starting Lineup for YOUR Dallas Mavericks!!!


Greg Buckner
Devean George
DeSagna Diop
Maurice Ager (?)
Jose Juan Barea (??)


Man, they really phoning it in tonight.
Imagine the experience for poor fan who saved all year
and this is their only game. Sucker!!

 

[cranrab]

it's no surprise that admitted sandbagger and game tanker marques johnson advocates the position that teams SHOULD LOSE ON PURPOSE in order get a higher draft position for kevin durant and greg oden.

viewers of FSN can still catch his on-air remarks via the internet.

and for those that don't already know, marques johnson openly admits than he (and other players) sandbagged the 1985 clippers season ON PURPOSE in order to get coach lynam fired.

DISGUSTING and UNPROFESSIONAL behavior from a player i once admired.

 

[RunawaySlave]

Tonight's Starting Lineup for YOUR Dallas Mavericks!!!


Greg Buckner
Devean George
DeSagna Diop
Maurice Ager (?)
Jose Juan Barea (??)


Man, they really phoning it in tonight.
Imagine the experience for poor fan who saved all year
and this is their only game. Sucker!!

Tonight, Dallas unloaded both barrels on poor undermanned
Seattle. Every ONE of their main starters played tonight
Starts to make me wonder......


Did Avery bench his starters as a favor to his ex-boss Don
Nelson?? Dallas losing that game helped the Warriors gain an
advantage in the standings. Warriors lose and they are tied
with the Clips at 40-41 instead of a 1 game lead

AJ could have easily gave his team the night off TONIGHT,
but clearly did not. Why the last game and not this one??
The players could've gotten a nice break if he did.

 

[cranrab]

BUMP for boston and memphis.

RIP celtics and grizzlies fans.

2007 #1 pick in the draft goes to the SIXTH (6th) worst team.

2007 #2 pick in the draft goes to the FIFTH (5th) worst team.

2007 #3 pick in the draft goes to the FOURTH (4th) worst team.

that "losing to get ahead" shit doesn't work. all it does is endorse a losing culture.

 

[RunawaySlave]

Danny Ainge will resign next month. I know he gotta be a LITTLE
upset. Larry too

 

[Spectrum]

LMBAO... sorry Boston...you're not getting out of the gutter..

CELTICS: OWNED " you mean we tanked out the season for nothing"

 

[xfactor]

What a great day in the NBA.

Man, all I can say is that I feel sorry for Boston and Memphis, although Memphis didnt decide to tank until Pau Gasol broke his foot during the summer olympic trials. Boston had the plan to tank all along and still came up short.

Atlanta has two lottery picks, hopefully they'll take Mike Conley at #3 so they can finally solidify their backcourt.

A lot of subplots from the draft lottery though -

1) Will KG return to Minnesota? And why was Randy Wittman given a 3 year extension?

2) Will Danny Ainge commit suicide?

3) Did Mr. Allen pay to have the lottery fixed.

4) Did Stern give Seattle the #2 pick to keep them in Seattle?

5) How come Russ Granik's replacement at Deputy Commisioner looks like an elemetary school hall monitor?

Can't wait until the draft now.

 

[cranrab]

2) Will Danny Ainge commit suicide?

Can't wait until the draft now.

danny ainge did a decent job of keeping his disappointment in check. but coach rivers looked like he was ready to die right then and there. shit was priceless.

watching the draft order selection was just a tease. unlike most people, i don't even care WHO is selected in which position. come june, i'm MORE interested to see the draft day trades unfold. and then i'm waiting for july when the FA situations unfold.

sonics fans have to be getting nervous, because there's definitely no guarantee they can keep rashard lewis or ray allen.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

sonics fans have to be getting nervous, because there's definitely no guarantee they can keep rashard lewis or ray allen.

I personally think Lewis is gone. Chicago is already screaming about needing someone that can score in the post. It's just a matter of if they want to part with Deng.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Karma Catches The Celtics
Authored by Randolph Charlotin - 24th May, 2007 - 3:15 pm

The video was shown over and over. A Celtics fan at a local bar. His face, frozen in horror. His hands on his head as if they are holding his green Celtics hat onto his head to keep his brain from blowing his top like a shaken champagne bottle. And his jaw locked in position, dropped as if an anchor hung from his chin.

ESPN's analysts put words to his reaction, but in the background, over the silenced crowd, faintly rang the lyrics of Justin Timberlake: What goes around always comes back around.

As the NBA revealed the winner of the 2007 draft lottery, the worst case scenario played out for the Green Team as they not only missed out on the top pick overall but fell from their second worst team perch down to fifth overall. While this year's draft is regarded as a deep draft, everyone agrees that the projected top two picks, likely center Greg Oden and forward Kevin Durant, are franchise players. Anyone else is not in that class.

People want to believe in superstition and claim the Celtics curse continues, dating back to Len Bias' death two days after being drafted by Boston in 1986. And as time moved on, other depressing milestones continued to beat down the NBA's most storied franchise (out of sympathy, I won't log them).

Sorry. I ain't buyin' that. People talk as if the Angel of Draft passes over the Celtics offices every lottery evening and kills all hope.

There's also the conspiracy theory. For all the years the Celtics out-smarted other organizations, this is payback. Since the lottery is fixed, Boston will not win a lottery until some unknown debt is paid. I won't believe that until the Cigarette Smoking Man is at the podium, opening the envelopes with Fox Mulder and Dana Scully intensely watching.

What's in the past is in the past. What I do know is our actions can influence events later on, though you may not realize it. To sum it up, karma did the Celtics in.

The Celtics tried to take advantage of the system in place. The rash of injuries gave them an alibi. Theo Ratliff was shut down. Wally Sczerbiack got injured again. But the biggest blow was a stress reaction to their best player, Paul Pierce.

At first, the remaining youngsters tried in earnest to win games without their leader. During this time Al Jefferson roared to life and became an offensive presence. But even his emergence wasn't enough as the Celts plummeted from an almost .500 record into a 18-game losing streak and one of the worst teams in the Eastern Conference.

And that's when the light turned on in the heads of the Celtics front office. With all the talk of either Oden or Durant declaring for the draft after their freshman seasons, how about getting in position to draft either player? That was when the seed to tank the season was planted. Little did they know at the time that the seed would grow into a weed.

They revealed their intentions at home against the Charlotte Bobcats as the Celtics built a 18-point second half lead but let the win slip through their hands as head coach Doc Rivers held his starters out of the fourth quarter. At the post game press conference, Rivers said, "I was not throwing the game, or anything like that." Doc said he was teaching a lesson to the bench players who complain about minutes.

Looking back at those statements makes Rivers hard to believe now that the season is over. There were numerous games the Celtics could had won, but Rivers did what was asked of him and he sabotaged the team by trying not to win. More than once he didn't make proper substitutions to give his team the best chance to win.

Rivers accomplished his job by "earning" the second worst record in the league. And with that, the Celtics put their future in luck. This logic is as sound as buying a lottery ticket to pay off an outstanding dept.

Do they understand that karma dictates you get out what you put in? Did they really think they would get rewarded for putting in a dishonest effort? Maybe if the Celtics didn't tank, they would have finished with the sixth worst record and would be celebrating the leap to the top of the board. Only eight wins separated Boston and Portland. That's not a insurmountable gap to close.

Like I said before, I don't believe in the conspiracy theory. But if it is true, then commissioner David Stern, who frowns on the practice of tanking, would punish the teams trying to lose. That would explain why Boston wasn't alone in the free-fall as Memphis, the worst team in the league, fell three spots to fourth overall.

To say tanking is a necessary evil would be lying. There are more benefits to trying to win than going all out to lose. With a young team like the Celtics, they don't learn how to win which will go a long way towards future success. Nor will they know how to deal with adversity. They won't develop the mental toughness to will their way to victory.

Now that Boston’s fate is sealed, what do they do next? Do they keep the pick or do they trade it for a package that includes a veteran? Does it matter? This isn’t a team that is a player away from becoming relevant in the league. Maybe they become a playoff team in the weak Eastern Conference, but how good will they be? A first round exit or maybe bounced in the second round. And if they keep the pick, it extends the rebuilding timetable for maybe another two to three years, if not longer.

How would that make Pierce feel? The team leader and the only player left from the team Ainge inherited when he became the Celtics chief of basketball operations. P-squared walked the company line as he was told they would build the team around him into a championship-contending team. If progress is set back again, does Pierce continue waiting or does he ask for a trade to a contender?

A few years ago Alica Keys said in her song titled Karma that, "what goes up must come down." For the Celtics, they first must try to climb up to fall down. Otherwise the Celts stay down and go nowhere.