Beyond the War on Terrorism

QueEx

Rising Star
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<font size="6"><center>Beyond the War on Terrorism</font size></center>

STRATFOR
By Peter Zeihan
August 10, 2005

One of our dominant themes for 2005 is that, while the bloodshed and anarchy in Iraq rule the headlines, a fundamental realignment of American strategic priorities lies beneath the chaos. Recent changes in the Iraqi political milieu are responsible for a broad global inflection in U.S. priorities. One method of not only confirming the dawning changes but also ascertaining just how those changes will be carried out is to peruse the various personnel changes in the American diplomatic corps.

At the beginning of the first term of the current Bush administration, the majority of foreign policy efforts were poured into establishing a cordon sanitaire around the only country to recently pose a serious threat to the United States -- Russia -- and the only country that could conceivably pose one in the future: China.

The theory was that a bit of proactive work on Washington's part would weaken its past and potential foes sufficiently to prevent any re-emergence of Cold War power balances. If Moscow and Beijing could be prevented from acting as international pillars of power, then American hegemony would be secured for at least a generation -- and perhaps much longer. Put another way, the Rome of the modern age sought to deliver a death blow to Carthage and pre-emptively hobble a still-rising foe.

The 9/11 Interruption

The Sept. 11 attacks massively disrupted that strategy. Suddenly, the United States found itself under threat from an amorphous, hidden enemy, extremely well schooled in the tricks of the U.S. intelligence trade. Al Qaeda was intimately aware of how to avoid detection by all of the methods the United States preferred to use. This was particularly true for methods such as signals intelligence, which worked exceedingly well for targeting entities such as the Soviet Union but fared very badly when attempting to pre-empt militants training in rural Afghanistan.

These U.S. intelligence weaknesses ultimately led to the Afghan war. The inability to finish al Qaeda there led to the invasion of Iraq, so that the United States could use its troops to force Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia to help root out al Qaeda. That, in turn, created the quagmire in the Sunni triangle, which has occupied U.S. policy planning for the past two years.

Somewhere along the line, however, the United States sensed that the momentum toward democracy, or at least stability, was sufficient that it could return its attention to global geopolitics and international economic trends. The departure of Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz -- the architect of the Iraq war -- was symptomatic of this change. The United States no longer needed diplomatic and military planners for a war in progress; it needed personnel who could prepare for what would follow the conclusion of that war.

The big changes afoot in Iraq do not relate to this militant cleric or that dark alleyway -- long gone are the days when the White House cared in the least what Muqtada al-Sadr thought -- but rather to the fact that the Sunnis have begun to join the political process. Should enough of them do so, the largest percentage of people supporting the militants -- Iraqi nationalists -- will have been co-opted, while the remainder, the foreign jihadists who secure assistance from the Sunni population, will have few places to hide.

While there will still be shrill debates and plodding documentaries about the PATRIOT Act, troop deployments and the pros and cons of expanding the Homeland Security Advisory System to include ThreatCon Fuchsia-Mint Delta 6, for all practical purposes U.S. foreign policy will move on.

In fact, it already has.

Putting Iraq on Cruise

The focus on the Middle East, which has absorbed almost every shred of U.S. diplomatic effort since Sept. 11, is being spun down. Of course, the Middle East will always command attention -- the developing crisis with Iran and ongoing Israel-Palestinian agonies are excellent examples -- but the proactive nature of U.S. policy in the region is already changing. An excellent way to register U.S. intentions toward a region or state is to look at which personnel are running the show. Wolfowitz's departure was eye-opening, as is the choice of Washington's ambassador to Iraq: Zalmay Khalilzad.

In the days of John Negroponte and Paul Bremer, the job of foreign policy officials in Iraq was not just to coordinate U.S. policy but, in essence, to dictate Iraqi policy on Washington's behalf. Iraq now has a government, albeit a halting and inexperienced one. And so the American administrators have moved on and an actual ambassador has moved in.

Considering the stage of Iraq's development and U.S. goals for the country, the new man on the scene is a logical choice. Until recently, Khalilzad was the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. The U.S. campaign in Afghanistan was never as politically hands-on as it has been in Iraq. It may have sponsored meetings and supplied aid, but Washington never had any illusions or ambitions about uniting Afghanistan's fractious warlords into a single cohesive state.

And Khalilzad did not attempt to do so. Instead, the major portion of his job was to point out how U.S. and Afghan efforts against the Taliban and al Qaeda would be more effective if those groups were not able to regularly cross the Pakistani border to rest, plan and resupply. He regularly criticized Pakistani intelligence forces for remaining sympathetic to Afghan militants and for inadequate cooperation in rooting those forces out. He focused a spotlight on the United States' unwilling ally, cajoling officials and illuminating problems.

Most important, while Khalilzad often played the role of hammer, he also ultimately took Pakistan's interests into account by helping bring the "moderate" Taliban -- Pakistan's chief tool for influencing its nothern neighbor -- into the Afghan mainstream.

A quick look at the state of the Iraqi insurgency -- and Iraq's neighbors -- gives an excellent idea of precisely what the administration is thinking. In Washington's mind, Iraq no longer needs to be administrated, it just needs to have its environment tweaked. Khalilzad's recent experience makes him uniquely qualified for what is essentially the end phase of Iraq's centrality to U.S. policy.

Iraq has been at the core of U.S. policy for the past two years, and now it makes sense that any inflections in grand American geopolitical strategy will manifest there. The May-to-July period has witnessed a series of dramatic shifts in U.S. policy as Washington eases out of the day-to-day grind of the U.S.-jihadist war. (But note: "eases out" should not be confused with "wins" or "finishes." Terrorism as a political tactic has hardly been stamped out, but al Qaeda's ability to influence geopolitical developments appears to be steadily waning.) So while the United States will have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and similar locales for some time, no longer are efforts to combat al Qaeda the pre-eminent drivers of American policy. Al Qaeda, and with it the Middle East, are becoming background noise. The shift from Bremer to Negroponte to Khalilzad is symptomatic of a much broader trend.

But if the United States is shifting away from Iraq, the Middle East and the war on terrorism, where precisely is it shifting to?

Back to Business in Asia

Before Sept. 11, Washington's China policy was designed to gradually confront and contain China until Beijing was forced to buckle under the pressure and sue for piece. Three years later, now that the administration has some free bandwidth, that policy has been resurrected and the American ambassador to Beijing, Clark Randt (now serving his fourth year in that position) is actually beginning to do the work that he was originally hired to do. Though we maintain that China's recent decision to repeg the yuan was a purely cosmetic act, it was a cosmetic act that would have never occurred without a U.S. policy much more aggressive toward China than that immediately following the Sept. 11 attacks.

Similarly, the rest of Asia is in for more of the same -- or, more accurately, more of what Washington set out to achieve before the al Qaeda distractions took hold. The one exception is in South Korea, where Alexander Vershbow, until recently the U.S. ambassador to Moscow, appears set to relocate.

The Clinton administration cannily selected Vershbow to be its man in Moscow after he helped shove NATO's 1999 expansion and the Kosovo war down the Kremlin's throat in his role as permanent representative to the Atlantic alliance.

After becoming ambassador to Moscow in 2000, Vershbow maintained a similar outlook and helped push U.S. influence deeper into the former Soviet world. When his Russian hosts were feeling generous, they called him "brutally frank." Vershbow espoused a combination of directness and effectiveness that appealed to the Bush administration, which kept the ambassador plugging away at Moscow for the entirety of Bush's first term despite the fact that he was a Clinton appointee.

So what in the world did the Koreans do to land themselves in the company of a personality like Vershbow? Simply put, Seoul is asking for change. Vershbow's greatest legacy for the United States has been his extremely successful effort to redefine NATO's mission in the post-Cold War environment, and to sell that vision to -- or, as some may say, force that vision upon -- NATO's primary (former) adversary. The South Koreans want to redefine military relations with Washington so that they have more control over military operations and decisions on the Korean peninsula. There may be no better man for the job than Washington's former ambassador to Russia.

Unfinished Business in Russia

It should come as no surprise that the most dynamic part of U.S. foreign policy relates to Russia. Condoleezza Rice, appointed as Secretary of State at the beginning of the year, began her government work during the end of the Cold War, when she served as former President George H. W. Bush's Soviet expert at the National Security Council. Now that she is in the big chair at Foggy Bottom, she has surrounded herself with members of the same team from her previous stint in government service. Of particular note are former U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, former U.S. ambassador to NATO Nicholas Burns, and Robert Joseph, former special assistant to the president and senior director for proliferation strategy, counterproliferation and homeland defense with the National Security Council (NSC) -- a wordy way of saying that he was really important. The three now serve essentially as Rice's No. 2, 3 and 4 at State.

As we stated when Rice was appointed in January, the State Department is now
"staffed by a team that helped knock the Soviet Union off its superpower perch. Russia can look forward to four years of a State Department with the resources and the will to ratchet back Moscow's influence throughout the Baltics, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Central Asia and even its western Slavic flank. The confrontation over Ukraine was just the beginning."

Personnel changes have not been limited to the top tier. Vershbow's replacement as ambassador -- William Burns -- fits the mold set by Rice and her top team. He served at the U.S. embassy in Moscow as minister-counselor for political affairs during the 1980s, a position and time that would tend to shape one's political views. He is now coming back to Moscow after several years of knocking Israeli and Palestinian heads together.

In the case of Russia, however, the transformation is much deeper than "just" a fresh ambassador, secretary of state and top management team. The rank and file of the entire Russia desk at the State Department is being overhauled. Considering that most State Department personnel swap out positions every two to three years to avoid the dangers of going native, a certain amount of turnover is expected, but the top-to-bottom housecleaning in the case of the Russia team appears to be far more thorough than any scheduled rotation.

The big shift began -- and the direction of U.S. policy was set -- at the V-E Day celebrations in Moscow in May. During that trip, the Bush team bracketed a whirlwind tour past a parade stand in Moscow between deep, long and extremely friendly visits to Latvia and Georgia. The message was clear: the United States is now more concerned with the comings, goings and concerns of Vaira Vike-Freiberga and Mikhail Saakashvili-- the Latvian and Georgian presidents -- than it is with the Russians, and this message was sent on the Russians' national day.

In the Russian mind, it is all snapping into place: color "revolutions" in Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Ukraine; NATO and EU expansion right up to the Russian border; the commencement of pumping on the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline; and now a thorough personnel shift in the State Department that is stocking the top ranks with people who were present at -- and played a role in -- the Soviet defeat. The Kremlin's belief is that the West, led by the United States, is committing to a full-court press into Russia's geopolitical space in an attempt to permanently remove Russia as a threat.

They are correct.

Waking Up to a Threat in Latin America

Latin America has been largely ignored by the United States since Clinton's bailout of the Mexican peso in 1995. Since then, the only "proactive" U.S. policies in the region have involved military aid to Colombia, the embargo against Cuba and a weak push for a hemispheric free trade area. Under Bush, no meaningful evolutions to these core policy planks have emerged, while personalities such as John Maisto (ambassador to Venezuela), Otto Juan Reich (former assistant secretary of state for Western Hemisphere affairs), and Roger Noriega (Reich's replacement) have simply represented drift. Even a personal push by Bush at the Organization of American States summit in June failed to spark any interest or results on behalf of the Latin Americans.

In the meantime, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been busy.

Tightly aligned with Havana and systematically severing relations with the U.S. government, Chavez has redefined Venezuela's relations with the United States in hostile terms -- adopting a new national security doctrine that perceives the United States as Venezuela's greatest enemy.

Since solidifying his power in the aftermath of a civil-military revolt in 2002, an oil industry strike in 2003 and a presidential recall referendum in 2004, Chavez has used his country's oil wealth to export his Bolivarian Revolution throughout the region. His plan is to exploit the region's weak governments and disaffected populations -- already hostile to Washington -- to facilitate the formation of radical social governments opposed to the United States.
Assisting indigenous groups in Bolivia and working to undermine U.S. influence in Ecuador by courting the government with offers of financial and energy assistance are his two biggest policy thrusts at the present time. Should they succeed, Venezuela will have largely limited U.S. influence in South America to the cocaine-fueled war in Colombia.

In contrast, U.S. policy has largely reflected the underwhelming personnel tasked with administering it: unimaginative, obtuse, reactive, outdated. Even when Argentina crashed and burned, Congress voted $3 billion in military aid to Colombia, and Venezuela spiraled into coups and energy industry strikes, American policy barely fidgeted.

However, as Chavez's strategy unfolds and his momentum builds, Washington is belatedly acting. The first step of the response has been -- again, no surprise -- a change of personnel at State. Otto Reich departed the scene in 2004, and Thomas Shannon, whose previous postings include serving as Rice's senior Latin American adviser at the NSC, has been appointed as the new assistant secretary of state for Western Hemisphere affairs. Other diplomats -- many with experience in countering Castro's Cuba -- are now being reshuffled to counter a different revolution. Kevin Whitaker -- at the Cuba desk and now on his way to be the No. 2 at the Venezuelan embassy -- comes to mind.

Collectively, these diplomatic appointments reflect growing U.S. concerns about the regional expansion of Chavez's Bolivarian revolution, as well as an effort to build a political containment strategy to stop the Chavez/Castro alliance from winning converts among radical groups throughout South America.

Unlike Washington's growing anti-Russian efforts, however, its Latin American policies are coming from a low base with few resources. In contrast, the Venezuelan-Cuban strategy is well funded, entrenched and using subsidized oil to entice financially strapped governments into aligning themselves politically with Caracas. Add in that anti-American sentiment is both strong and rising in Latin America -- and that no Latin American government is signing on to Washington's late-to-the-party strategy -- and it becomes apparent that boxing in Caracas it will take more than a change of nameplates and some vague commitments to a new containment agenda.

Send questions or comments on this article to analysis@stratfor.com.
 
2 points that will annoy the board.

iraq is not accepted as part of the war on terror. and i dont think you personally accept it as such either.

and this quote, " If Moscow and Beijing could be prevented from acting as international pillars of power, then American hegemony would be secured for at least a generation -- and perhaps much longer. Put another way, the Rome of the modern age sought to deliver a death blow to Carthage and pre-emptively hobble a still-rising foe."

people on this board are against america being an empire too.
 
Interesting article.

I never knew our goal as a country was to be an empire. I would much rather our government focus on the happiness and safety of the American people. Dominating other countries globally is not something I am particurly interested in as an American.

Not to sound like a hippie. But I wonder why we always take this "us vs. them" philosophy to everything diplomatic. America with its constant need to dominate and control other countries and other people to me seems like a bully. What is the need to have other countries fear us?
 
Greed said:
2 points that will annoy the board.

iraq is not accepted as part of the war on terror. and i dont think you personally accept it as such either.

and this quote, " If Moscow and Beijing could be prevented from acting as international pillars of power, then American hegemony would be secured for at least a generation -- and perhaps much longer. Put another way, the Rome of the modern age sought to deliver a death blow to Carthage and pre-emptively hobble a still-rising foe."

people on this board are against america being an empire too.
You're right, I don't accept Iraq as being part of the "Initial War On Terror". That is, I don't believe Iraq was part of the Al Qaeda nexus before and at the time of the invasion. Unfortunately, however, it is now -- and I believe it has become so because of our OWN actions. No need to re-hash here the rationale for the invasion or whether it was the right thing to do, but there is no question that Iraq is now a base of terror - where there wasn't one before.

With respect to America being, becoming or remaining an empire, I support that idea -- so long as we get our heads on straight over how to equitably treat and deal with the rest of the world. Just as I believe that self-preservation is the first law of nature -- so do I believe that nations (a mere collection of people) seek their own self-preservation, betterment and advancement. All nations seek those things, some do it better than others -- but like man competes against man for resources, so do nations -- and somebody is going to come out on top. I would rather that be the nation I live in, as opposed to someone else's.

When, however, self preservation, betterment and advancement is sought without due consideration to its consequences, we end up in some of the predicaments we find ourselves today. While our economy and the people of the U.S. have a demand for oil, a near insatiable demand at times, I believe with better policy and foresight we could have secured those needs without imperiling the future.

QueEx
 
QueEx said:
With respect to America being, becoming or remaining an empire, I support that idea -- so long as we get our heads on straight over how to equitably treat and deal with the rest of the world. Just as I believe that self-preservation is the first law of nature -- so do I believe that nations (a mere collection of people) seek their own self-preservation, betterment and advancement. All nations seek those things, some do it better than others -- but like man competes against man for resources, so do nations -- and somebody is going to come out on top. I would rather that be the nation I live in, as opposed to someone else's.


QueEx

Why must nations compete against one another for resources? Why does one country doing well mean another country must do poorly? In my view they do not. Global resources and technologies are enough that people need not starve and people need not war over resources. The reason people suffer is because of greed. Billionairs want to be trillionaires and at that level you must control mass numbers of people to achieve those goals. The common man has no interest in America being an empire and dominating the world. Every country in the world is not on that quest. Only a select few want that. And the quest for global dominance and establishing an empire does not result in the happiness of the people. It results in the happiness of the powerful.
 
Amazing resposes i seem to be hearing from a couple people. The most i can do is help teach the youth of tomorrow to not lower themselves to the evil ways of the Satan worshipperes of today. that is until i get my graphics skills and animating and film making skills ready to do some serious exposing of the evil ways. ANd on the positive side i can voice the opinions of the youth of tomorrow from my neigborhood ... and other countries.
 
QueEx said:
You're right, I don't accept Iraq as being part of the "Initial War On Terror". That is, I don't believe Iraq was part of the Al Qaeda nexus before and at the time of the invasion. Unfortunately, however, it is now -- and I believe it has become so because of our OWN actions. No need to re-hash here the rationale for the invasion or whether it was the right thing to do, but there is no question that Iraq is now a base of terror - where there wasn't one before.

With respect to America being, becoming or remaining an empire, I support that idea -- so long as we get our heads on straight over how to equitably treat and deal with the rest of the world. Just as I believe that self-preservation is the first law of nature -- so do I believe that nations (a mere collection of people) seek their own self-preservation, betterment and advancement. All nations seek those things, some do it better than others -- but like man competes against man for resources, so do nations -- and somebody is going to come out on top. I would rather that be the nation I live in, as opposed to someone else's.

When, however, self preservation, betterment and advancement is sought without due consideration to its consequences, we end up in some of the predicaments we find ourselves today. While our economy and the people of the U.S. have a demand for oil, a near insatiable demand at times, I believe with better policy and foresight we could have secured those needs without imperiling the future.

QueEx

Don't hurt em Que! LMBAO.
 
Temujin said:
Why must nations compete against one another for resources? Why does one country doing well mean another country must do poorly? In my view they do not.
I believe it is inherent in nations to compete. Nations are nothing more than a collection of people; and a people is composed of persons. You can't stop the thirst in man, hence, you cannot quell the thirst among nations.

If the U.S. was a less wealthy nation, it would still compete and seek to overcome the domination of some other country. Is that not what China, Russia or any other country does ??? Do the Chinese operate in YOUR self interest, or the interest of the Chinese ??? Altruism may be a noble goal, but it rarely, if ever, exists in man or nation.

Name a country where this competition -- this self preservation and quest for betterment does not exists. In fact, where is the planet Utopia ???


Global resources and technologies are enough that people need not starve and people need not war over resources. The reason people suffer is because of greed. Billionairs want to be trillionaires and at that level you must control mass numbers of people to achieve those goals. The common man has no interest in America being an empire and dominating the world. Every country in the world is not on that quest. Only a select few want that. And the quest for global dominance and establishing an empire does not result in the happiness of the people. It results in the happiness of the powerful.
I don't know if the world's resources are sufficient for everyone to prosper or even survive. Surely, I don't want anyone to strave or to exist below some generous minimal standard. When I see the people of Niger, my heart aches. I really believe that there is a way for the Nigers of the world to take better care of their own. But I am not fool enough to believe that in doing so, it will not have to, among other things, engage in that competition that quest for the preservation and betterment of its people. It has valuable resources that it must <u>use</u> to its benefit.

Of course, there is Greed (<u>on</u> (lol) and off this board), and that must be dealt with within a nation within reasonable bounds. The overwhelming majority of people in this country are not billionaires or trillionaires. In fact they represent a minutia and there is a problem with the over-accumulation of wealth to the detriment of everyone else.

When I said empire above, I probably acquiesed in the use of term that Greed probably just threw out. I took it to mean something far less than some sinister or other Global Domination. I took it to mean taking care of reasonable American interest -- just as any other country would take of its reasonable interest. One would be naive to believe that there is altruism among nations .... or man. As much as we would like it to be, the world is not comprised of Goody-Two-Shoes.

QueEx
 
Unfortunately the powers that be of America, Russia China and many others are on the quest of Global domination. These are the billionairs and trillionairs I speak of. Their thirst for power at the expense of others drives these wars we are engaged in now. Their quest is the reason we are on our quest to be the best lawyer, doctor businessman. We don't quest for the advancement of our fields we just quest as individuals for domination.

No matter how moral we proclaim this war to be we are not fighting this war for the betterment of the Iraqi or Afghani people. The people of America support these wars for the most part because they believe we are keeping ourselves safe. Unfortunately we blindly believe that the actions of our government are keeping us safe RIGHT NOW. (Even though our government tells us the war on terror may last generations and that a terror attack could happen at any time). After four years of war how safe are we?

I am true believer in the power of the human mind. If the collective power of the human mind on the planet earth decided that their would be no wars, no poverty no suffering it would be so and we would be in utopia. Unfortunately we are not advanced morally or intellectually as beings to quest for the betterment of all man with the expense of self sacrifice.
 
Temujin said:
... I am true believer in the power of the human mind. If the collective power of the human mind on the planet earth decided that their would be no wars, no poverty no suffering it would be so and we would be in utopia. Unfortunately we are not advanced morally or intellectually as beings to quest for the betterment of all man with the expense of self sacrifice.
Tem,

I believe man ONLY acts collectively when it is the best interest at the time. One man's individual interest will ALWAYS be different from another's. There are points where those interests converge, but individualism will always emerge because of the differences. Unanimity of man has never occured, nor will it ever. Good has never completely triumped over evil and, biblically speaking, thats not the forecast, at least on earth as we know it. No communist nation has witnessed the dictatorship of the proletariat -- and there are NO earthly examples of the common good of ALL being the rule, without exceptions. Whenever and wherever the common good has supposedly been the goal or even the norm, those exceptions have risen above the common good of ALL, to seek and have something more. Hence, the Leviathan Man.

QueEx
 
P.S.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Athiest, Agnostics, etc., (PEOPLE) WILL NEVER live in complete harmony. Their views and agendas are antithecal. Therefore, we are left with trying to manage competiting interest. Yours, mine and nations against another.

QueEx
 
There are plenty of earthly examples of the common good being the rule. Just not many in the human race. From ants to bees to wolf packs communal animals live in that nature. And of course even in those groups you have the Alpha males and the queens. However these leader know they are only part of the collective. We have lost our bond with our own humanity in this quest to be the best.

We as humans have had sporadic success at that vision from Civil rights to the elimination of Aparthaid self sacrifice has shown to bring great things to be. This is one bond all religions have though rarely practiced by followers. Jesus was the greatest example of self sacrifice. Moses. Abraham. Buddha.
The basis of all religions is supposedly the betterment of man. However our animilistic nature seems to always find a way to twist our religions into a justification for destruction. Abortion BAD. Killing Iraqis good.

Why are we even competing against each other we should be competing against perfection. As long as we base our status and achievement on domination and being better than the next human we will never reach our full potential as beings and become something more than animals.

Let me add some clarity to my argument. I do not believe there is anything wrong with striving for perfection as a country. America should strive to have the greatest economy imaginable but we should not judge our economy on how wealthy we are as compared to other countries. We should judge our economy on the ability to provide resources to the masses. How can we say we are even good capitalists if we still have 30% of black children born into poverty. We justify this however by saying we are doing better than people in other countries. But the reason we our doing better is because our super rich are dominating their super rich but all the while the common man is still poor and hungry. We don't strive for perfection in all aspects of our being we strive for domination of other humans and judge our success on this sick realitive scale.
 
America is being challenged for it's preeminence in the world. Other countries are doing whatever they can to free themselves from what has been a tyrannical American dictatorship masquerading as freedom and democracy. On one hand the Russias and Chinas of the world appear to play by international rules whereas the Talibans and Al Qeadas are changing the rules to suit them, they all have the same goal, stop America from being a empire. This government has to do whatever to perserve our way of life, if that means invading Iraq, sanctioning Iran, or kissing China's ass that is what they will do.
 
nittie said:
... On one hand the Russias and Chinas of the world appear to play by international rules ...
Proof positive, you don't know jack about international relations, or this country.

QueEx
 
Temujin said:
.... we should not judge our economy on how wealthy we are as compared to other countries. We should judge our economy on the ability to provide resources to the masses. How can we say we are even good capitalists if we still have 30% of black children born into poverty. We justify this however by saying we are doing better than people in other countries. But the reason we our doing better is because our super rich are dominating their super rich but all the while the common man is still poor and hungry. We don't strive for perfection in all aspects of our being we strive for domination of other humans and judge our success on this sick realitive scale.


Hey Temujin, I agree with most of what u are saying, but unfortunately I think u use the word "We" too much when referring to America. ... when you say that "we" Americans are doing all these negative things, you should clarify by pointing out that there is only a select few at the top that are the ones making all the evil decisions.

Now when it really comes to "we," meaning the average American, "we" Americans dont do shit. Thats what we americans do. We sit there and watch in amazement. We have no say. we are ignorant and we dont know what to say. We wouldnt know what to say if we were given the opportunity. We have been converting to a religion called ignorance where the churches fill the families heads with garbage. The Miseducation system is in place to keep us on this downward spiral of mental slavery, and If We continue in this cycle we will continue to have assholes running the world. And the veil of ignorance will ocntinue to grow.

We need to stop pretending that we are really evil when we are really not. What we are is quiet. We are silent slaves that let the manager tell us what to do from both our jobs 60hrs a week. Then we go home and take it out on the family. We are the ones that spend more time workin for the guys at the top than our communities at the bottom. we need to stop pretending, and start teaching each other. Enlighten each other. Work together. Enlighten and teach the youth. Bah!
Duality rules.
 
QueEx said:
P.S.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Athiest, Agnostics, etc., (PEOPLE) WILL NEVER live in complete harmony. Their views and agendas are antithecal. Therefore, we are left with trying to manage competiting interest. Yours, mine and nations against another.

QueEx
I don't know Que, the masses seem to follow their leaders on these things, if their leaders package the message correctly. You put the right leader in place and a LOT of what Tem is talking is possible. It's been proven time and again through history that a strong positive (or negative) leader will create a strong positive (or negative) society. Problem today is that those in power (around the world to some degree) tend to be dictatorial, greedy, weak or career politicians (none of which make for truly good leaders). A good leader may be a "once in a generation" thing, but when they come around (and survive long enough to affect change), they work miracles.

What you usually end up with though, is a combination:

Weak socially, strong militarily
Strong socially, weak economically
Strong economically, weak socially
etc., etc., etc.

America stays fairly balanced due to the fact that our leaders are cycled in and out, but there are those who would like to see that balance upset. Empire building (in the classic militaristic sense) would be just the tipping point to upset that balance. Plus, great empires are like shooting stars, the brighter they aspire to burn, the more quickly they tend to burn out, where a balanced society can always adjust (militaristic societies seem to have the shortest lifespan of all).
 
nittie said:
America is being challenged for it's preeminence in the world. Other countries are doing whatever they can to free themselves from what has been a tyrannical American dictatorship masquerading as freedom and democracy. On one hand the Russias and Chinas of the world appear to play by international rules whereas the Talibans and Al Qeadas are changing the rules to suit them, they all have the same goal, stop America from being a empire. This government has to do whatever to perserve our way of life, if that means invading Iraq, sanctioning Iran, or kissing China's ass that is what they will do.

I'm sorry but what the hell is that supposed to mean? Anyone who sits here and says China and Russia play by international rules need to check himself into the nearest mental health clinic ASAP. :confused:
 
Zero said:
I don't know Que, the masses seem to follow their leaders on these things, if their leaders package the message correctly. You put the right leader in place and a LOT of what Tem is talking is possible. It's been proven time and again through history that a strong positive (or negative) leader will create a strong positive (or negative) society. Problem today is that those in power (around the world to some degree) tend to be dictatorial, greedy, weak or career politicians (none of which make for truly good leaders). A good leader may be a "once in a generation" thing, but when they come around (and survive long enough to affect change), they work miracles.
Zero,

As I read Tem, there is the great HOPE that people will see eye to eye in some harmonious relationship. Of course, I could be wrong but tell me when and where that has happened. In my honest opinion, that is mere wishful thinking. That doesn't mean that concensus doesn't occur, but there is now and always has been dissenting opinion and opposition groups. ALWAYS! If you can show me different, I'll readily concede the point. But the point really is that there will always be differences among men and among nations based on their own self interest. <u>I challenge anyone to prove differently</u>.

America stays fairly balanced due to the fact that our leaders are cycled in and out, but there are those who would like to see that balance upset. Empire building (in the classic militaristic sense) would be just the tipping point to upset that balance. Plus, great empires are like shooting stars, the brighter they aspire to burn, the more quickly they tend to burn out, where a balanced society can always adjust (militaristic societies seem to have the shortest lifespan of all).
Here we are in agreement except, however, with respect to the implication that the U.S. is an empire (maybe we need to review the "Empire" thread). But as to your "balanced" comments -- we are in accord.

Yes, this country has overstepped in its foreign dealings in the past, perhaps now with Iraq and will in all likelihood again in the future, but I am not one to yell foul or empire building every time something happens. I see a lot of Black people taking that stance often and I believe a lot of it comes from the way we have been treated in this country -- almost as if they wish failure upon this country or someone to "get them mofo's back" for what they have done to us. If there is a bad characterization that can be attributed to our foreign dealings, they find a way to make that attribution.

I am by no means saying or implying that all is and has been well with American foreign policy -- but I am saying that this nation will and has the duty to take care of OUR interest just like every other nation has a duty to do the same for its national interest. Yes, we have to find a more equitable and just way to pursue our interest, but the truth is toes will be stepped upon in the process because in many, if not most, cases its step on or be stepped on. International intercourse is just that -- nations trying to fuck each other.

QueEx
 
QueEx said:
Zero,

As I read Tem, there is the great HOPE that people will see eye to eye in some harmonious relationship. Of course, I could be wrong but tell me when and where that has happened. In my honest opinion, that is mere wishful thinking. That doesn't mean that concensus doesn't occur, but there is now and always has been dissenting opinion and opposition groups. ALWAYS! If you can show me different, I'll readily concede the point. But the point really is that there will always be differences among men and among nations based on their own self interest. I challenge anyone to prove differently.


Here we are in agreement except, however, with respect to the implication that the U.S. is an empire (maybe we need to review the "Empire" thread). But as to your "balanced" comments -- we are in accord.

Yes, this country has overstepped in its foreign dealings in the past, perhaps now with Iraq and will in all likelihood again in the future, but I am not one to yell foul or empire building every time something happens. I see a lot of Black people taking that stance often and I believe a lot of it comes from the way we have been treated in this country -- almost as if they wish failure upon this country or someone to "get them mofo's back" for what they have done to us. If there is a bad characterization that can be attributed to our foreign dealings, they find a way to make that attribution.

I am by no means saying or implying that all is and has been well with American foreign policy -- but I am saying that this nation will and has the duty to take care of OUR interest just like every other nation has a duty to do the same for its national interest. Yes, we have to find a more equitable and just way to pursue our interest, but the truth is toes will be stepped upon in the process because in many, if not most, cases its step on or be stepped on. International intercourse is just that -- nations trying to fuck each other.

QueEx
I'm not talking a utopian society, humans have and always will be above all esle, HUMAN. I'm just saying that we are pack animals by nature and with proper leadership a society has the potential to do great (or hideous) things. As a negative example, I'd site Nazi Germany, or more recently, Rwanda, as a positive example, I'd site what the U.S. citizens and leadership did to combat the affects of the depression (even reconstruction after the civil war would be a good example, maybe not to US as black people in a large degree, but a good example of collective positive work).

As far as the empire building statement, I highlighted (in the classic militaristic sense) intentionally because that is the example I wanted to site as to how a society can fail and fail quickly (those who live by the sword... yadda, yadda, yadda). I DO feel that the current admin has a militaristic ideology, but as I said, in this country things eb and flow and NO administration or ideology will last long once it begins to go too far or cause too much damage (so although I feel the current admin may have that bent, I doubt they'd become the Fourth Reich, they'd be voted out or booted out LONG before things got that bad. Current approval ratings speak to that reality). I'm actually arguing to maintain our Democracy/Republic, or whatever you prefer to call it, as it stands because it was well designed and provides the balance that many MASSIVELY POWERFUL societies of the past (Greece, Rome, England, France, Germany, et al) lacked. That is the VERY reason the nation was framed the way it was, so that it could succeed where others inevitably failed.

On another note, economic imperialism can implode just as easily as military imperialism and the greed factor in this country as far as corporate execs must be checked. It won't cause a collapse of the Republic, but it WILL cause economic misery to untold many (that has already happened as well and the protections put in place to keep it from happening again are being chipped away at).
 
I'm sorry but what the hell is that supposed to mean? Anyone who sits here and says China and Russia play by international rules need to check himself into the nearest mental health clinic ASAP.

one hand the Russias and Chinas of the world appear to play by international
rules

I said they APPEAR to be playing by international rules. Don't be so quick to judge.
 
nittie said:
I said they APPEAR to be playing by international rules. Don't be so quick to judge.

What are these international rules that China and Russia are so good at abiding by while we savage Americans step all over them?
 
U.S., Japan Agree on Troop Realignment

U.S., Japan Agree on Troop Realignment
By FOSTER KLUG, Associated Press Writer
31 minutes ago

The United States and Japan have struck a bargain over a plan to realign U.S. forces in Japan, with Japan agreeing to pay $6.1 billion of the nearly $10.3 billion cost, the Japanese defense chief said Sunday night.

Japanese Defense Minister Fukushiro Nukaga told reporters after his three-hour meeting with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld that Japan wanted to have an appropriate sharing of costs in transferring 8,000 Marines from Okinawa to the Pacific island of Guam.

Japan has offered to pay $2.8 billion, and the remainder of its $6.1 billion share would take the form of loans to the United States. Japan would shoulder 59 percent of the realignment cost.

"We have come to an understanding that we both feel is in the best interests of our two countries," Rumsfeld said after the meetings.

Lt. Col. Chris Conway, a Defense Department spokesman, said Rumsfeld and Nukaga held extensive discussions, but he did not have specific details of the meeting. He said midlevel officials from both countries were scheduled to meet again on the issue Monday and Tuesday.

Nukaga said both sides agreed that the Japan-U.S. alliance is important, not only for Japan but also for the region.

"I had not expected that such an agreement was possible," Nukaga told Japanese reporters, according to Japanese broadcast network NHK. "Japan and the United States were still wide apart on the issue, and I thought it won't go anywhere unless I directly meet with Mr. Rumsfeld for talks aimed at a breakthrough."

The United States had proposed in an earlier round of negotiations that Japan pay $7.5 billion, or 75 percent, of the cost to relocate Marines. Japan had said it would pay about one-third of that amount.

The United States and Japan are discussing the biggest restructuring and streamlining of the U.S. military based in Japan in decades.

An outline of the overall realignment plan was announced in October and was to be finalized by the end of March. However, it bogged down over details.

Under a mutual security pact, the United States has about 50,000 troops stationed in Japan. The presence includes more than 10,000 Marines, several air bases and the home port for the Navy's 7th Fleet.

Japan and the United States are close allies. On Friday, Japan's Cabinet approved a six-month extension of its non-combat support for the U.S.-led anti-terrorism campaign in Afghanistan, officials said.

Japan has also deployed about 600 troops in southern Iraq on a non-combat, humanitarian mission.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060424...wtI2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--
 
You're right, I don't accept Iraq as being part of the "Initial War On Terror". That is, I don't believe Iraq was part of the Al Qaeda nexus before and at the time of the invasion. Unfortunately, however, it is now -- and I believe it has become so because of our OWN actions. No need to re-hash here the rationale for the invasion or whether it was the right thing to do, but there is no question that Iraq is now a base of terror - where there wasn't one before.

With respect to America being, becoming or remaining an empire, I support that idea -- so long as we get our heads on straight over how to equitably treat and deal with the rest of the world. Just as I believe that self-preservation is the first law of nature -- so do I believe that nations (a mere collection of people) seek their own self-preservation, betterment and advancement. All nations seek those things, some do it better than others -- but like man competes against man for resources, so do nations -- and somebody is going to come out on top. I would rather that be the nation I live in, as opposed to someone else's.

When, however, self preservation, betterment and advancement is sought without due consideration to its consequences, we end up in some of the predicaments we find ourselves today. While our economy and the people of the U.S. have a demand for oil, a near insatiable demand at times, I believe with better policy and foresight we could have secured those needs without imperiling the future.

QueEx

And I continue to endorse these remarks; not such much with regards to the initial question posed, but because a few might read them and get a better idea of what I'm coming from. Of course, not that it matters; but maybe so there will be fewer mischaracterizations.

QueEx
 
You're right, I don't accept Iraq as being part of the "Initial War On Terror". That is, I don't believe Iraq was part of the Al Qaeda nexus before and at the time of the invasion. Unfortunately, however, it is now -- and I believe it has become so because of our OWN actions. No need to re-hash here the rationale for the invasion or whether it was the right thing to do, but there is no question that Iraq is now a base of terror - where there wasn't one before.

With respect to America being, becoming or remaining an empire, I support that idea -- so long as we get our heads on straight over how to equitably treat and deal with the rest of the world. Just as I believe that self-preservation is the first law of nature -- so do I believe that nations (a mere collection of people) seek their own self-preservation, betterment and advancement. All nations seek those things, some do it better than others -- but like man competes against man for resources, so do nations -- and somebody is going to come out on top. I would rather that be the nation I live in, as opposed to someone else's.

When, however, self preservation, betterment and advancement is sought without due consideration to its consequences, we end up in some of the predicaments we find ourselves today. While our economy and the people of the U.S. have a demand for oil, a near insatiable demand at times, I believe with better policy and foresight we could have secured those needs without imperiling the future.

QueEx


I agree fully with your first paragraph.

The rest I have some issues with:

First, being an Empire and treating others fairly are polar opposites. By aspiring to be or actually becoming an Empire means you have the barest of concern about others because in order to make life better for your own people the lives of others must be lessened.

Uplifting others and treating them equally would mean a lessening of the standard of living who are receiving the fruits of empire to accomplish an increase in the standard of living of others who were once exploited.

The consequences are obvious. Those being exploited for the betterment of others are going to rebel. Getting them back in line may take some serious, brutal actions and also be completely unapologetic about it.

Are you ready for that?
 
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