Bench Melo??

RunawaySlave

Zeitgeist
BGOL Investor
First Camby was unhappy two weeks ago about his role and said
so publicy, now this.....Can Nene be far behind?? Anthony is obviously
not a happy player.

Yet this team seemed to be on a roll before the historical trade.
(yes that is sarcasm)
They genuinely seemed to like each other back then and there was
team chemistry


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2790075





<!-- end sub --><!-- begin wrapper div --><!-- begin mainthing div --> <!-- begin pagetitle --> Updated: March 7, 2007, 2:00 AM ET
Karl could sit Melo if Nuggets star doesn't respond


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<!-- begin text11 div --><!-- begin leftcol --> <!-- template inline -->Despite the dynamic duo, the Denver Nuggets have become stale, and George Karl might do something radical about it.

Unhappy with the play and attitude of Carmelo Anthony, the coach has considered benching his star, according to a report in the Denver Post."I think that's the next move," Karl said, according to the Post. "I've told Melo in the last two weeks, 'I don't think you're listening. I don't think you're listening as well as you need to listen.' For me, the next step is to change the democracy back to a dictatorship."

After beating the Hornets 106-91 on Tuesday night, the Nuggets have a 15-20 record since acquiring Allen Iverson and are stuck in the seventh spot in the Western Conference. That's not the results the team expected when it made the biggest trade of the season.

Between his 15-game suspension for his role in the brawl at Madison Square Garden and his All-Star snub and then addition to the team, Anthony has lost his way.

"The inconsistencies, we have excuses for. But I'm tired of seeing it," Karl said, according to the Post.

Maybe the impending birth of his son has distracted Anthony. His fiancee, La La Vazquez, was induced Tuesday night and due at any time. Anthony doesn't know if he'll miss any time, but he did head right to the hospital after the game. He told reporters the baby had not arrived yet.

"Just waiting for it to happen," Anthony said, according to the Rocky Mountain News. "The anticipation is always high this time when you're about to have a baby and about to be a father."

Karl would like to see a reborn Anthony on the court, getting back to the complete player that carried the Nuggets early in the season. Although the league's leading scorer was putting up 31.2 points per game in his last five contests heading into Tuesday, the Nuggets were 2-3 in those games.

"Personally, I think Melo should forget about scoring," Karl said, according to the Post.

Maybe the message got through. Anthony scored only 21 points in the Nuggets' win on Tuesday.

"Prove to people I don't have to score 30 points to win a basketball game," Anthony said.

After the win, Karl said his comments were "not directed at Melo, but at the whole team."

Before the game, Karl pointed to Tracy McGrady who was thought of primarily as a scorer early in his career but who has expanded his game to fit a Houston team that is playing well.

"Tracy McGrady has grown up. Tracy McGrady gets it," Karl said, according to the Post. "And, right now, what you're saying is basically, 'When is Melo going to get it? Is it going to be next month?' As a coach, there's no one more frustrated, there's no one more angry than me, because I feel the pain."



Remember how sad Chris Webber was in Philly? Notice that smile
on his face these days?? The same smile that was there in Sac.
 
you have a strong argument.

the sixers were 5-10 (.333) in games AI started

the nuggets are 11-15 (.420) in games AI started

the nuggets are 9-12 (.430) in games AI and carmelo have started together

since the trade, the nuggets are also 4-4 (.500) in games AI was a DNP.

before the trade, the nuggets were 14-9 (.610)
 
I was waiting for this one...

I'm going to skim over the over the injury situation for a minute, because that is a contributing factor. The problem falls on four key things:

1.) The Nuggets weakest position is the Western Confrences strongest: Power Forward. Nene is a good fill in, but losing Francisco Ellison as a back-up and Kenyon Martin at starting PF fucked the Nuggets up. Now K-Mart is good, but he based his rep on guarding East cost PFs when he was in Jersey. He's not good enough to stop a KG, Dirk, Duncan, Rashard Lewis, etc. on a consistent basis.
2.) Melo is NOT, I repeat NOT ready to be the franchise player. I am real curious to see the win/loss numbers when A.I. is the focal point of the offense. Melo is a GREAT player, but he is not ready to lead the team as of yet.
3.) George Karl is not the right coach for this team. He has no structure. The Nuggets don't have a defensive stopper since K-Mart went down, so who do they call on for big stops? Can they Nuggets lock people down in crucial moments of a game? Not from what I've seen..
4.) Lack of a effective bench. Part is due to injury, the other part is due to the fact that they have euro bums on the bench that are a waste of a paycheck.

I said before that you can't judge the Nugs this year because they are not at full strength. But next year hopefully K-Mart will be healthy and they will play better. But what I would do is do a sign and trade for Rashard Lewis, and pick up Chucky Atkins in free agency.

Outgoing
Nene Hilario
6-11 PF from Brazil (Foreign)
11.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.0 minutes
Eduardo Najera
6-8 SF from Oklahoma
6.8 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 0.9 apg in 23.1 minutes
Incoming
Rashard Lewis
6-10 SF from Alief Elsik (HS)
22.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 2.5 apg in 38.9 minutes
Johan Petro
7-0 C from France (Foreign)
6.2 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 0.6 apg in 18.4 minutes

Successful Scenario
Due to Denver and Seattle being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Denver and Seattle had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Starting five:
PG: Allen Iverson
SG: Melo
SF: K-Mart
PF: Rashard Lewis
C: Camby

Bench:
Steve Blake/Chucky Atkins/Demarr Johnson/J.R. Smith/Linas Kleiza/Reggie Evans/Johan Petro/Jamal Sampson
 
i'd like to second the notion that coach karl is part of the problem in this scenario.

but i'd also like to advance the idea that the nuggets are still missing the component coach karl complained he didn't have last season: a consistent outside threat.

as much as AI is a slasher, open court/transition type scorer, he's not really a genuine OUTSIDE threat.

the part i disagree with RF about is kenyon martin's presumed role next season. i don't think kenyon martin's a good fit for the nuggets, and i don't think kenyon martin's as much of an offensive threat as he believes himself to be.

on the optimistic side, i'd like to believe the nuggets are a better squad than they are showing right now. if they don't find an aggressive style of play to hang their hat on, they'll be out of the playoffs quick.
 
Okay, you make a decent argument Rollie, but I disagree on
Kenyon Martin. That injury happened well before he would have
any kind of impact on the team this season. I agree with
Cran that Martin was never the right fit for the Nuggets (no
Jason Kidd). Besides, the Nuggets main problem on the front
line last year was too many bodies and not enough minutes.
Martin's season ending surgery basically solved a problem for
them. All they had to wait for was Nene to round into playing
condition and that has happened. So while they may not have a
great bench, they still had a solid starting lineup both
before and after the trade.....

Before the reade, like I already stated, they were on somewhat
of a roll. No one had a problem with Anthony as a "franchise" player
while he was averaging over 30 a game and shooting a good
FG percentage and had Andre Miller dishing out the assists and
running the offense. As Cran stated, the only problem was still
the lack of a consistent outside threat. But JR Smith was taking
care of that (for the most part). He, Miller, Carmelo and Camby had
a very good chemistry and the only thing holding them down a
little was losing Martin and waiting for Hilario to get in shape


My problem with this is that when things start going wrong around
Iverson (and they always do), the fingers start pointing every-
where but in the direction they need to be pointed at. People
blame everybody......other players (the "he has no help" line is
tired), coaches (Brown, Cheeks, whoever), GMs, fans, the ball boy
the hot dog vendor, practice, everything......except the man himself

If you've been one place for ten years.....and you haven't done
jack shit, and everything around you has been "fixed" and rebuilt
over and over and over and over.....then YOU, my friend are the
problem


Example: Shaq had a problem with Penny Hardaway in Orlando. Then,
he leaves and goes to LA where he has a problem with Kobe Bryant.
Coincidence??? Yeah, could be. Probably.

BUT

If he comes to Miami and has a feud with Wade, then it might be
safe to assume that Shaq has a problem sharing the stage and the
spotlight right?? (btw, thank goodness it hasn't happened....yet).
So overthe course of time you can draw a conclusion based on a
chain of events that draw a pattern.....Well I am here to tell you,
I haved watched this man and I have seen the pattern even if no
one else has.........


The no help argument is bullshit. Players develop if given the chance
to develop. Witness Andre Iguodala. Did he become this good overnight?
Did Dalembert?? Did Hunter?? What about John Salmons in Sac??
There are others as well. But I ain't chasing it any more. I said what
I had to say about Black Superman (the flop king)
 
I like both your points.

The thing is that Karl is WAY too easy going and leinient of a coach. Knock Larry Brown all you want but he was the right coach coach for A.I. He knew how to reign him in. Karl isn't maximizing his talent.

For what it's worth, I'd be more than happy to trade K-Mart, but his injury makes him a problem to move.

Another thing is that Iverson escapes blame because he plays at 110% every night. He even sacrified his game in Denver to a point to appease the critics. Now all his critics are tell him to be more aggressive. A.I got his share of critics in Philly, but honestly Philly dropped the ball in this situation. I knew that Andre Iguodala would be good. So was Korver. That squad had to be broken up and rebuilt

All that being said. The Nuggets season is fucked up..and the majority of the blame falls on Karl and Melo. The whole basis of the arguement is that he needed to slow his role and be more respomsible, and he isn't.
 
..oh, and to stress the importance of a Power Forward in the West, look at how the Lakers are doing without Lamar Odom. (But cranrab covered that in another thread.)
 
Re: Bench Melo?

i'd like to revisit the AI topic again, just to take a closer look at some of the numbers.

sixers with AI (counting only games he played in): 5-10 (.333)
sixers since AI was benched: 18-26 (.410)

OK, now RF brings up the potentially mitigating factor of chris webber.

sixers with CW (counting only games he played in): 5-13 (.280)
sixers since CW bought out: 16-17 (.480)

i've already shown what the nuggets have done since AI joined the squad.

what about the pistons before and after CW?

pistons before CW: 21-15 (.580)
pistons since CW: 16-7 (.700)

so it looks as though chris webber was more TOXIC to the sixers than AI. but as bad a fit as chris webber was with the sixers, it appears he is equally as good a fit with the pistons.

on the other hand, if RS' hypothesis is correct, then it has support based on before/after of both the sixers and nuggets with AI.
 
Good points you guys.

Just a small point on tonight's Denver/Detroit game
which i did not see. I can tell you two things about
that game:

1. Denver lost (or is losing)
2. Denver's key big men: Nene, Camby and Reggie Evans
ALL had technical fouls. Which indicates that each was
upset by something (not necessarily an official's call) during
the course of that game


And Rollie. I am not trying to downplay the loss of a PF.
I am merely saying that Denver already had a more than
capable substitute for Martin in Hilario. Only reason Martin
was even starting was because he makes over 10 mil per
season and Nene does not
 
Re: Bench Melo?

cranrab said:
on the other hand, if RS' hypothesis is correct, then it has support based on before/after of both the sixers and nuggets with AI.


Hypothesis...I like that, lol. That's why you get them big bucks Cran.

Anyway, I don't contend with the notion that Webber was as much
of an albatross with Philly as Iverson was. But I do believe Webber's
mediocrity was an abberation. Just look at his play with the Kings
prior to his trade to Philly and his play with Detroit after

Besides, it's part of my contention that all the offense running thru
Iverson is the reason why the big men's play falls off. Webbers #'s
all come when he and Iverson are in the same lineup right?? Or at
least the majority of them
 
Re: Bench Melo?

RunawaySlave said:
it's part of my contention that all the offense running thru Iverson is the reason why the big men's play falls off. Webbers #'s
all come when he and Iverson are in the same lineup right?

that's the odd part to me...

AI and CW only played 11 games together before the sixers went ahead and dismantled the team. in those 11 games, the sixers were 4-7 (.360).

but i'm sure all parties involved had grown tired of each other, and tired of waiting out another season. the sixers seemed to have moved on and adjusted well, the pistons are likewise happy, let's see if the nuggets turn out satisfied with what they got.

i still think the clippers missed the boat; IMO they should have pulled the trigger on the shaun livingston/corey maggette for AI deal. the inside-outside combination of elton brand and AI is just too intriguing to pass up.

instead they're losing to the golden state warriors. :smh:
 
Re: Bench Melo?

cranrab said:
that's the odd part to me...

AI and CW only played 11 games together before the sixers went ahead and dismantled the team. in those 11 games, the sixers were 4-7 (.360).

but i'm sure all parties involved had grown tired of each other, and tired of waiting out another season. the sixers seemed to have moved on and adjusted well, the pistons are likewise happy, let's see if the nuggets turn out satisfied with what they got.

i still think the clippers missed the boat; IMO they should have pulled the trigger on the shaun livingston/corey maggette for AI deal. the inside-outside combination of elton brand and AI is just too intriguing to pass up.

instead they're losing to the golden state warriors. :smh:


I assume that's the Sixers record this season. Doesn't include
last year's totals. Doesn't matter. It probably wouldn't be much
different


As for the Clippers, If there was a general basketball thread, I
was going to post how Dunleavy must REALLY be upset with
Sudden Sam. Becase they just picked up Jason Hart, who is not
that good, and he is already STARTING for them (after only 2 or
3 practices)
 
Re: Bench Melo?

RunawaySlave said:
I assume that's the Sixers record this season. Doesn't include last year's totals. Doesn't matter. It probably wouldn't be much different

since we boys and all, i did you a solid.

sixers record in games AI and CW played together 2006: 31-36 (.463)

but what stuck out as most interesting to me are these numbers:

sixers with AI, no CW: 4-1 (.800)

sixers with CW, no AI: 2-6 (.250)

talk about your forced fits. speculating on chemistry alone, it would appear that chris webber wasn't happy to be there, and allen iverson wasn't particularly comfortable having him there. and i'm just talking in the on-court sense here, not their interpersonal relations.
 
Last edited:
Wish I could say I was surprised Cran. But in reality, I ain't
surprised at all. I also am not surprised at their record without
either of them....

They have a pretty competent array of players right now. Andre
Miller is decent as a distributor, Iguodala is an excellent TWO WAY
player, Dalembert ain't great, but he can patrol the paint and
Cheeks is a good coach who understands chemistry wins games,
not biology
 
next time, i'm sending you an invoice

i'm billing you some hours for this shit, man... :cool:

2005

sixers before the chris webber trade: 26-28 (.481)
kings before the chris webber trade: 34-20 (.630)

STOP.

now some of you may be scratching your heads and saying to yourselves "why in the fuck did sacramento want to screw with their lineup if they were doing so well?"

REFRESHER.

recall that a rift had been created between chris webber and euro garbage predraj stojakovic. sacramento chose the euro. pretty poor choice, considering chris webber was HAPPY THERE. even worse choice when you consider that the kings shipped off the euro stiff to the pacers the very next season.

so what happened to the two teams after the trade went down?

the sixers finished 16-9 (.640)
the kings finished 15-11 (.577)

how did AI and CW play together? 12-9 (.571)
how did AI play w/o CW? 4-2 (.666)
 
RunawaySlave said:
Good points you guys.

Just a small point on tonight's Denver/Detroit game
which i did not see. I can tell you two things about
that game:

1. Denver lost (or is losing)
2. Denver's key big men: Nene, Camby and Reggie Evans
ALL had technical fouls. Which indicates that each was
upset by something (not necessarily an official's call) during
the course of that game


And Rollie. I am not trying to downplay the loss of a PF.
I am merely saying that Denver already had a more than
capable substitute for Martin in Hilario. Only reason Martin
was even starting was because he makes over 10 mil per
season and Nene does not

From what I saw of the game (I watched three quarters of it) was that the offense is being run through Melo. He shot them out of the game at certain points. Only at the end of the 1st half did A.I. become more aggressive and take the ball to the rack.

Also, the Nuggets expect big things from Nene (As did I..I thought the Knicks fucked up by not taking him in the draft) But earlier in the season he was injured and put on weight. The fact that he is playing better shows that he is healthier and has taken the weight off.

Martin was SUPPOSED to be a defender like Artest...someone eho could play different spots on the court. BUt like Artest, he's not a good fit for the team that he's on.

Personally, I wont be suprised is Nuggets management doesn't give Larry Brown a call in the offseason..
 
Re: next time, i'm sending you an invoice

Yeah, I remember all that mess with Peja, he really screwed up the team with his funky attitude. Then ends up leaving anyway. You have to wonder why
the Madoofs would pict this BUM over Webber after they had been through
so much and it looked like they were finally about to turn the corner

If I didn't know any better, i'd swear they were trying to lose on purpose
to precipitate a move to Vegas were they know that they would rake in
the cheddar.....




I'm surprised the Sixers record was that good after that trade last year.
But it kind of figures. Because Iverson WILL give up and distribute the
ball in the beginning stages of the relationship. He did it today after he
got CAUGHT flopping and bitching to refs on National TV. And the results
were good for the team. Even though I expected the Kings to be in disarray
with Artest coming back so soon

I guess "out indefinitely" means 3 days now. You could see the Kings
offense bog down with that fool in the game
 
you guys are grabbing at straws trying to blame georg karl for this!!! al I have to day is that karl has proven himself by leading an obviously inferior team in the seatle super sonics featuring GP, SHAWN KEMP, DETLEF SHRIMP, and other lames to two finals against my hometown favorites the chicago bulls!!! case closed.
 
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