All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be Kobe Thread
- Thread starter TimRock
- Start date
these all defensive team selections are a joke for 2 reasons (in this order).
1) how can the first "team" be selected without a PG? this shouldn't be an all star type ballot where SGs are eligible for PG positions.
2) tobe doesn't belong on the all defensive first (or 2nd) team. fakers head coach jackson said himself that people's perceptions of tobe's D are based largely upon myth, and that he hasn't played sound defense in several seasons. and i already posted coach winter's opinion of tobe's D.
1) how can the first "team" be selected without a PG? this shouldn't be an all star type ballot where SGs are eligible for PG positions.
2) tobe doesn't belong on the all defensive first (or 2nd) team. fakers head coach jackson said himself that people's perceptions of tobe's D are based largely upon myth, and that he hasn't played sound defense in several seasons. and i already posted coach winter's opinion of tobe's D.
OHHH OOHHHH!!!! Here we go again!!!!
yup....let the kobe hate flow lolhanginbals said:
cranrab said:
lol... because NBA coaches don't agree with your biased opinions, they are a joke??? Gee, I wonder who knows more about the game, the coaches that are being paid millions to coach the game or cranrab who profess to know everything about basketball but nobody finds his knowledge worthy of any job associated with basketball??? There is a reason you are the self-proclaimed basketball guru on a porn message board and not working for a team!!! Also, whether a not a PG was selected to the first team is irrelevent to Kobe's election since he was the leading vote getter of all guards. Your hate for Kobe has you making silly statements now calling the All-Defensive team a joke! I guess Duncan doesn't deserve to be on the team either since the coaches don;t know what they are talking about. Will you say the HOF is joke when Kobe is elected to the HOF exactly 5 years after he retires???
You might have more basketball knowledge than me, but your hate for Kobe and foreign players has you so biased that make some very silly statements.
(And I don't need you to break anything down for me in response to this - NBA head coaches' opinions vs some dude on a porn board - there is nothing you can say to change my mind that you either can't give an accurate unbiased critique of Kobe or you just don't know shit about basketball.)
^^^
Trojansfan,
I can already see where this post is heading. You left yourself kind of wide open because your argument was based on the fallacious appeal to authority. Cran is gonna eat it up.
You know there was once a time when all the "experts" in the scientific community concluded that the earth was flat. A conclusion is not correct because of "whom" it comes from by any regard. A conclusion can be deemed sound based on the data and/or reasoning used to formulate the opinion or fact.
I guess my initial confusion is to why Kobe is held in such high regard defensively. You hear the words fearless competitor and he looks forward to defended the great players... but in a tangible nature what does that mean...what does Kobe really do well on the defensive end that makes him exceptional enough to garner first team defensive honors because you definitely can't justify it on stats... so where what was the reasoning
In terms of this decision to place Kobe on the 1st team: I have to admit that being overseas much of the last two years, I have probably seen only ten Laker games this year. I didn't see Kobe playing much of any defense. I saw much of those games at the end of that scoring spurt. He seemed to be resting on defense and saving himself for offense from what I saw.
I have never understood the perception of Kobe being a lock down defender or even above average defensive skills for that matter. This was even before I recently taken a much more critical view of his game.
Also, the fact that he was the leading vote receiver for guards should show the biased nature of it..you have to at least agree with that.
Kobe is NOT a better defender than Raja Bell..the other guard on the team. I think you will even admit that.
Kobe is listed a G/F and I think the following players who are either listed as guards or gaurds/forwards are clearly better defenders that Kobe..statistically as well as just fundamentally.
Raja Bell
Ron Artest
Jason Kidd
Trojansfan,
I can already see where this post is heading. You left yourself kind of wide open because your argument was based on the fallacious appeal to authority. Cran is gonna eat it up.
You know there was once a time when all the "experts" in the scientific community concluded that the earth was flat. A conclusion is not correct because of "whom" it comes from by any regard. A conclusion can be deemed sound based on the data and/or reasoning used to formulate the opinion or fact.
I guess my initial confusion is to why Kobe is held in such high regard defensively. You hear the words fearless competitor and he looks forward to defended the great players... but in a tangible nature what does that mean...what does Kobe really do well on the defensive end that makes him exceptional enough to garner first team defensive honors because you definitely can't justify it on stats... so where what was the reasoning
In terms of this decision to place Kobe on the 1st team: I have to admit that being overseas much of the last two years, I have probably seen only ten Laker games this year. I didn't see Kobe playing much of any defense. I saw much of those games at the end of that scoring spurt. He seemed to be resting on defense and saving himself for offense from what I saw.
I have never understood the perception of Kobe being a lock down defender or even above average defensive skills for that matter. This was even before I recently taken a much more critical view of his game.
Also, the fact that he was the leading vote receiver for guards should show the biased nature of it..you have to at least agree with that.
Kobe is NOT a better defender than Raja Bell..the other guard on the team. I think you will even admit that.
Kobe is listed a G/F and I think the following players who are either listed as guards or gaurds/forwards are clearly better defenders that Kobe..statistically as well as just fundamentally.
Raja Bell
Ron Artest
Jason Kidd
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eewwll said:^^^
Trojansfan,
I can already see where this post is heading. You left yourself kind of wide open because your argument was based on the fallacious appeal to authority. Cran is gonna eat it up.
You know there was once a time when all the "experts" in the scientific community concluded that the earth was flat. A conclusion is not correct because of "whom" it comes from by any regard. A conclusion can be deemed sound based on the data and/or reasoning used to formulate the opinion or fact.
I guess my initial confusion is to why Kobe is held in such high regard defensively. You hear the words fearless competitor and he looks forward to defended the great players... but in a tangible nature what does that mean...what does Kobe really do well on the defensive end that makes him exceptional enough to garner first team defensive honors because you definitely can't justify it on stats... so where what was the reasoning
In terms of this decision to place Kobe on the 1st team: I have to admit that being overseas much of the last two years, I have probably seen only ten Laker games this year. I didn't see Kobe playing much of any defense. I saw much of those games at the end of that scoring spurt. He seemed to be resting on defense and saving himself for offense from what I saw.
I have never understood the perception of Kobe being a lock down defender or even above average defensive skills for that matter. This was even before I recently taken a much more critical view of his game.
Also, the fact that he was the leading vote receiver for guards should show the biased nature of it..you have to at least agree with that.
Kobe is NOT a better defender than Raja Bell..the other guard on the team. I think you will even admit that.
Kobe is listed a G/F and I think the following players who are either listed as guards or gaurds/forwards are clearly better defenders that Kobe..statistically as well as just fundamentally.
Raja Bell
Ron Artest
Jason Kidd
I will admit that coming back from knee surgery this year, Kobe was not as effective one-on-one on the perimeter as he just couldnt move laterally as effectively as I have seen him in the past. But I have seen him play good post defense and great help defense where he forces a lot of turnovers. Was I surprised to see him on the 1st team this year... yes! The key here is that the coaches that have to coach against him respect him as a top defender. NBA head coaches (as a group if not individually) know the game better than anybody on this board (and if you think differently you are a fool - that would be like proclaiming to know the ends and outs of Rio better than you when u live there and I visit once or twice a year). Furthermore, you can't accept their logic in selecting certain players (Duncan leading vote getter for centers) and then say its biased because Kobe was leading vote getter from guards. Like I said before they either know what they are talking about or they don't. And obviously they know what they are talking about. If anything, us on this board are the ones that don't have the expertise to judge. Unlike All-Star voting which is a joke (because it is a biased fan vote), when you limit the voting to coaches (and prevent coaches from voting fro their own players) you get the purest vote you can get from the group of people who know better than anybody else. I don't know what your profession is, but just as I would defer to your opinion on matters within your profession (assuming its not the same as mine), you have to set your personal feelings aside in this case and defer to the coaches (clearly there is nobody on this board that knows the game better).
Edit: How many times have you seen cran post Jordan's credentials on this board and tout how many times he was selected to the All-Defensive Team? It is illogical to tout the award when it is given to a player you like and then say its a joke when it is given to a player you don't like. That is the definition of irrational.
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TrojansFan said:
At least you could admit that. I have not watched enough games to make the call. However, based on what I saw, I am surprised that he is first team..but again, I only saw a limited number of games. However, his play must have been consistent with what I saw for you to even be surprised as well.
When you look at that first team list.. Kobe's name just looks out of place because he is not the same caliber of defender as the other 1st team players IMO.
I guess my issue is this..with the other 4 first team defensive players, it makes clear sense... I just wonder what the logic is with Kobe.. because as you said, his lateral movement on defense has suffered and I would not consider him a great one on one defender..he often puts his teammates in bad positions.and he seems to play lazy floating defense...and he often loses his assignment when off the ball.. I'm trying to understand exactly what I am missing in the Kobe is a great defender...when I think of great defensive guards.. I have always thought of Michael Cooper, Joe Dumars, Michael Jordan, etc... Kobe just doesnt seem like a fit to me...But maybe defense is so suspect during this era that a defender of Kobe's caliber can make it first team as a guard.
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eewwll said:
If you look at this rationally and it sounds like you are...
The fact that you agree with the other picks, but just Kobe's name stands out to you should suggest that there is some bias against Kobe on your part. They don't just get it right, accept for him! Think about it.
cranrab said:
I saw this shit and was like "Here we go with more Kobe dick riding"
For the life of me I cannot remember a significant blocked shot, steal or rebound Kobe has made at a crucial stretch of a game in the last 3 years if ever.
eewwll said:
I watched a few Nationally televised games this year in which Kobe played. I consistently saw him get lit up by no name player off the bench.
cranrab said:
"Bryant ranked 17th in steals" tells you all you need to know.
TrojansFan said:
armenian,
your inability to understand english has betrayed you again. i PRAY you are armenian, and not the HBCU graduate you claim to be, because your inability to think clearly is pathetic.
i CLEARLY wrote the TWO (2) reasons why the list is a joke. now you want to attribute a third (your quote, above)?
TrojansFan said:
two points about your silly assumptions, armenian.
1st, some of "the coaches that are being paid millions to coach the game" have OWNERS who pay me for my insights. many coaches feel threatened by my presence because they feel that my services are a slight or discredit to their reputation; if they were able to put aside their pride, they would understand that i am only there to help them. so much for your claim that "nobody finds his knowledge worthy of any job associated with basketball". speak on what you know. you always look like a jackass when you attempt to do otherwise.
2nd, i have never professed to know everything about basketball. but what i do know, i know very well.
TrojansFan said:
you are correct about this. the reason is because i haven't been interested in paying my dues. i've transitioned myself into a successful businessman in the adult industry and mainstream home entertainment market. a handful of years ago, there was the slightest of chances for me to have an assistant coach position, but it was predicated upon who was chosen for head coach. my guy was not selected.
again, so much for your ill-informed supposition. AGAIN.
TrojansFan said:
your poor logic is frightening. the leading vote getter AT A POSITION should get the spot. PERIOD. the next highest vote getter AT A POSITION should get the 2nd team spot. PERIOD.
last year, there weren't true guards in the top 10 vote getters for 2006 defensive player of the year. but funny how they "found" 2 guards (tobe and jason kidd) for the 2006 all defensive 1st team. so let's examine your profoundly stupid appeal to authority.
raja bell and andre iguodala were the ONLY true guards to get ANY votes for 2006 defensive player of the year. guard/forward players gerald wallace and eddie jones were the only other eligible backcourt players to get ANY votes for 2006 defensive player of the year. tobe and jason kidd (who were not even in the top 20) DID NOT GET ANY VOTES AT ALL. but somehow tobe and jason kidd magically appear on the 2006 all defensive first team?
TrojansFan said:
was that one of my listed reasons?
@ dumb asses who can't read.TrojansFan said:
the HOF would not be a joke. tobe's induction would be. but it wouldn't be the first. if drazen petrovic and hoax bill walton qualify, i'm sure tobe fans can lobby for a charity case too.
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
unfortunately for you, this particular discussion is not on a nebulous concept of "the game". this discussion is about defense. and as i pointed out previously, tobe's own HOF head coach and team assistant have gone on record to say that tobe DOES NOT play sound defense (at the expense of the team).
talk about denial.
for eewwll: appeal to popularity
for eewwll: false dilemma, begging the question
so in forcing coach popovich to cast votes for players OTHER THAN tim duncan and bruce bowen (for example), the NBA obtained the "purest" vote?
un-fucking-believable.
for eewwll: red herring
thanks for providing MORE evidence of poor reading comprehension.
i DON'T like pointing to subjective criteria (such as awards) because i feel that it is NOT an accurate measure. THE ONLY TIMES THAT I HAVE POINTED TO SUBJECTIVE CRITERIA (such as awards) are in the inane "michael jordan v. tobe comparison" threads (or equally asinine "tobe is the best player today" threads), as a means to refute the baseless comparisons made by tobe stans.
example:
tobe stan claim: tobe compares favorably to michael jordan
tobe stan evidence: tobe was voted to first team all defense 4 times
cranrab rebuttal: tobe does not compare favorably to michael jordan, let alone tim duncan.
cranrab evidence: michael jordan was voted to first team all defense 9 times, including 6 consecutive. tim duncan was voted to first team all defense 7 times, including 5 consecutive.
refutation complete and obvious. tobe stans owned BY THEIR OWN MEASURE.
USING THEIR OWN CRITERIA, i have proven that tobe can't sniff michael jordan or tim duncan.
if your man crush on tobe wasn't so all-consuming, you might actually learn something.
TrojansFan said:
unfortunately for you, this particular discussion is not on a nebulous concept of "the game". this discussion is about defense. and as i pointed out previously, tobe's own HOF head coach and team assistant have gone on record to say that tobe DOES NOT play sound defense (at the expense of the team).
talk about denial.
for eewwll: appeal to popularity
TrojansFan said:
for eewwll: false dilemma, begging the question
TrojansFan said:
so in forcing coach popovich to cast votes for players OTHER THAN tim duncan and bruce bowen (for example), the NBA obtained the "purest" vote?
un-fucking-believable.
for eewwll: red herring
TrojansFan said:
thanks for providing MORE evidence of poor reading comprehension.
i DON'T like pointing to subjective criteria (such as awards) because i feel that it is NOT an accurate measure. THE ONLY TIMES THAT I HAVE POINTED TO SUBJECTIVE CRITERIA (such as awards) are in the inane "michael jordan v. tobe comparison" threads (or equally asinine "tobe is the best player today" threads), as a means to refute the baseless comparisons made by tobe stans.
example:
tobe stan claim: tobe compares favorably to michael jordan
tobe stan evidence: tobe was voted to first team all defense 4 times
cranrab rebuttal: tobe does not compare favorably to michael jordan, let alone tim duncan.
cranrab evidence: michael jordan was voted to first team all defense 9 times, including 6 consecutive. tim duncan was voted to first team all defense 7 times, including 5 consecutive.
refutation complete and obvious. tobe stans owned BY THEIR OWN MEASURE.
USING THEIR OWN CRITERIA, i have proven that tobe can't sniff michael jordan or tim duncan.
if your man crush on tobe wasn't so all-consuming, you might actually learn something.
eewwll said:
eewwll,
just accept that you are one grade a dumb m.f. and leave it alone.
i mean, don't you remember how tobe locked down gilbert arenas this year? and picked up 5 fouls in Q4 and OT that game (guarding deshaun stevenson)?
or maybe you forgot about how tobe shut out all star linas kleiza?
and it was just a few games ago we all saw tobe step up and put the clamps on leandro barbosa, right?
where do you get off, bringing this bullshit up in here, man?
cranrab said:
gtfoh, I don;t believe for one minute that an NBA owner paid you for your insights! Please clarify what was your job title / function when they were paying you? LOL, at many coaches being threatened by you!!! Exactly how many teams do you claim to have worked for??? And even if you are telling the truth and I highly doubt it, my assertion that nobody finds your knowledge worthy still holds true, by your own words when you disagreed with the coach the owner sent your ass packing and not the coach!!! If you wereany value to the organization and respected by the owner you would still be there!!!
So, either you are making this whole thing up or you were given a chance in the league and they bounced you because you didn;t bring any value. cranrab said:
Well, at least you aren't dumb enough to say he won't be inducted, but the fact that you suggest he would be inducted for anything other than his playing accomplishments is juvenile on your part.
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
yeah, eewwll.
you a shameless, hating m.f.
i mean, we MUST ALWAYS assume that a popular notion automatically is correct without proof. just look at how 17 out of 25 (68%) GMs picked dirk nowitzki as 2007 MVP, and his play this past week IS PROOF THEY KNOW JUST WHAT THE FUCK THEY TALKIN' 'BOUT, right?
TrojansFan said:
yeah, eewwll.
you a shameless, hating m.f.
i mean, we MUST ALWAYS assume that a popular notion automatically is correct without proof. just look at how 17 out of 25 (68%) GMs picked dirk nowitzki as 2007 MVP, and his play this past week IS PROOF THEY KNOW JUST WHAT THE FUCK THEY TALKIN' 'BOUT, right?
SpiritualPorn said:
first eewwll, now spiritual porn too?
you god damned haters just can't let it go, can you?
you know good and well you can't bring some USELESS shit like STATISTICS to the table.
i mean, if we used ridiculous statistics, one would have to wonder how cats like dwyane wade and ron artest (who BOTH averaged in the top 10 of BOTH steals AND blocked shots among STARTING GUARDS) didn't make first or second team.
and we wouldn't want to start asking questions like that, would we?
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
i'm sorry. you must have me mistaken for someone who cares what you believe or do not believe.
consultant. the contracts are limited duration, have expiring non-compete clauses, and confidentiality clauses.
yes. many perceive it as a snub. younger, insecure coaching staff feel that it is an indictment of their knowledge. older, professional coaching staff tend to appreciate alternate points of view that they might not already have considered or have had the time to for closer examination.
as i said, it is mostly the insecure who display this childish trait. i noticed a bit of it in your quote below:
why the need for qualification? aren't supposed post-graduate degree earners from HBCUs confident with theirs?
since 1995, i've worked for more than 5 teams, less than 10.
poor, poor armenian. i pray for the day when you can successfully read and comprehend english sentences.
WHEN did i write that i have disagreed with a coach? WHAT owner sent me packing?
FYI, my employment is typically on a game-to-game basis (though i have been contracted for an entire series) in the post-season. furthermore, i select who i work with. teams solicit my services, not the other way around. so nobody "sends me packing".
*yawn*
as i indicated before, i haven't earned a chance coaching in the NBA. i haven't paid my dues, and quite honestly, i'm not sure that i'm a lifer (like dennis johnson, RIP).
RIF, armenian, RIF.
TrojansFan said:
i'm sorry. you must have me mistaken for someone who cares what you believe or do not believe.
TrojansFan said:
consultant. the contracts are limited duration, have expiring non-compete clauses, and confidentiality clauses.
TrojansFan said:
yes. many perceive it as a snub. younger, insecure coaching staff feel that it is an indictment of their knowledge. older, professional coaching staff tend to appreciate alternate points of view that they might not already have considered or have had the time to for closer examination.
as i said, it is mostly the insecure who display this childish trait. i noticed a bit of it in your quote below:
TrojansFan said:
why the need for qualification? aren't supposed post-graduate degree earners from HBCUs confident with theirs?TrojansFan said:
since 1995, i've worked for more than 5 teams, less than 10.
TrojansFan said:
poor, poor armenian. i pray for the day when you can successfully read and comprehend english sentences.
WHEN did i write that i have disagreed with a coach? WHAT owner sent me packing?
FYI, my employment is typically on a game-to-game basis (though i have been contracted for an entire series) in the post-season. furthermore, i select who i work with. teams solicit my services, not the other way around. so nobody "sends me packing".
TrojansFan said:
*yawn*
as i indicated before, i haven't earned a chance coaching in the NBA. i haven't paid my dues, and quite honestly, i'm not sure that i'm a lifer (like dennis johnson, RIP).
RIF, armenian, RIF.
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cranrab said:first eewwll, now spiritual porn too?
you god damned haters just can't let it go, can you?
you know good and well you can't bring some USELESS shit like STATISTICS to the table.
i mean, if we used ridiculous statistics, one would have to wonder how cats like dwyane wade and ron artest (who BOTH averaged in the top 10 of BOTH steals AND blocked shots among STARTING GUARDS) didn't make first or second team.
and we wouldn't want to start asking questions like that, would we?
Ask questions?
Why that would indicate that we are actually thinking and not regurgitating, correct?
BTW......
You can really tell that a lot of these Kobe riders are not successful in life. This is why they need to worship him. In this reverence any objective analysis is forbidden.
I can admire Jordan as a player yet easily point out that he probably wasn't the best dunker or shooter in the game. (Thats goes to Dominique and Vince)
I can admire the achievements of Robert Horry without needing to put down Sam Cassell.
Yet these Kobe stans cannot take an objective viewpoint on their fantasy boyfriend.
I read something the other day and I will share it with you Cran..probably at my own expense because I love reading your analysis.
"What is a fool? One who is somewhat more irrational than a dumb animal. ....It impossible to reason with him. Do not throw pearls to pigs, because they will tread on them with their trotters and turn on you to tear you to pieces".....
It is more than obvious how intelligent your responses are yet these kids would rather argue what is obvious.
If they are this stupid behind a computer where they have time to re read and edit what they say, I am sure when they actually talk they are pathetic.
cranrab said:eewwll,
just accept that you are one grade a dumb m.f. and leave it alone.
i mean, don't you remember how tobe locked down gilbert arenas this year? and picked up 5 fouls in Q4 and OT that game (guarding deshaun stevenson)?
or maybe you forgot about how tobe shut out all star linas kleiza?
and it was just a few games ago we all saw tobe step up and put the clamps on leandro barbosa, right?
where do you get off, bringing this bullshit up in here, man?
Listing the fallacious argument references was priceless.
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I like that statement.
So can someone explain why some of these coaches, who from what i hear, wouldn't want Kobe on their team, would pick him for this selection. Some of these coached saw Kobe mess up on defense or saw one of their guys get the best of Kobe, but yet they still pick him. And what are the coached basing their decisions on? I doubt all the coaches have time to watch every laker game. Maybe they are just judging by what they see him do against their team.
Another thing, i often hear people say that no one wants to play with kobe and no one likes him, but when ever i hear an NBA talk about the top players or who's the hardest to guard, or who's the best in the league right now, they always mention Kobe. But yet, no one in the league likes him? I have heard numerous players say it: Sam Cassell, Leboron, Wade, Iverson, KG, Barbosa, Gilbert, etc. Are they being forced to mention his name? I dont understand the logic behind that.
Also, should Raja be on that list? Didn't Gilbert score 54 on him? Or Jason Terry going for 35? Or Rip Hamilton going for 31? Etc. Why is no one arguing that he shouldnt be on the list? I'm not saying he shouldn't though.
TimRock said:
Of course the coaches are judging based on what they see when they play the opponents, nobody should be expecting them to watch all of Kobe's games (only cran does that). The fact people don't like Kobe persoanally and yet as you mention top players in the league hold him in high esteem as the best in the league should tell you just how good he is as a competitor (not necessarily the most likeable guy - but that aint what were judging).
I notice that sombody pointed a couple games where players had good nights against the Lakers (was Kobe even guarding the opposing player?) as evidence he doesn't belong on the All-Defensive team.
But look at what Kobe did against Bruce Bowen this year...
Dec 10 34pts,8reb,1ast,3stl (52% shooting)
Jan 17 34pts,6reb,8ast,1stl (63% shooting)
Jan 28 31pts,6reb,7ast,1stl (53% shooting)
Now since some people on here claim that Kobe is not a very good player and he torched Bowen 3 out of 3 games this year I guess Bruce doesn't belong on the All-Defensive team either??? And Duncan is on that team as well providing help defense, so I guess he doesn't belong either?
So are Bowen and Duncan overrated defensively or is Kobe jsut that good?
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
interesting observation.
here's what HOF coach jackson (who has watched tobe in practice and every game this season) had to say:
"Kobe has improved his defense the second half of the season and we're happy that he made the first-team All-Defensive team," Jackson said. "But you've got to live up to that. That's really important. When he puts his mind up to the defense, he's done a great job for us.
"We've talked a lot about it, not being able to do the same things he's done in the past like steals, stopping guys or blocking shots in key situations like he's done when he was younger. We want him to get back and focus on that."
SpiritualPorn said:
interesting observation.
here's what HOF coach jackson (who has watched tobe in practice and every game this season) had to say:
"Kobe has improved his defense the second half of the season and we're happy that he made the first-team All-Defensive team," Jackson said. "But you've got to live up to that. That's really important. When he puts his mind up to the defense, he's done a great job for us.
"We've talked a lot about it, not being able to do the same things he's done in the past like steals, stopping guys or blocking shots in key situations like he's done when he was younger. We want him to get back and focus on that."
TimRock said:
I have not seen the ballot or talked to any coaches.
However I will say that the awards are not a reflection of what is really going on.
Who in their right mind would even consider Dirk for MVP?
Why does Shaq only have one?
Anybody who knows anything about BBAll knows that when Jordan played he was the MVP every fuckin year yet the award was spread around.
It's marketing Tim...Wake Up!!!!!!!!
The discussions here are to get BEHIND THE MARKETING...not regurgitate it.
To sell the MArino Brand you will say "Greatest QB EVER". The reality is that he was a selfish fuck that would curse his receivers out and hog the glory. The reality is that he didnt lead his team to a championship.
The reality is that most said nothing while he was playing because it would have hurt his marketing.
The reality is that you dont have to just pass to be a great QB.
It is similar to the Kobe branding I spoke of in another response I made here.
You seem to be caught up in the hype. Whenever someone tells you its hype you try to reaffirm the original fallacy.
cranrab said:eewwll,
just accept that you are one grade a dumb m.f. and leave it alone.
i mean, don't you remember how tobe locked down gilbert arenas this year? and picked up 5 fouls in Q4 and OT that game (guarding deshaun stevenson)?
or maybe you forgot about how tobe shut out all star linas kleiza?
and it was just a few games ago we all saw tobe step up and put the clamps on leandro barbosa, right?
where do you get off, bringing this bullshit up in here, man?
Linza Kleiza
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
cranrab said:
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
Damn,
TimRock,
What do you think about that. I am not being sarcastic either. Jackson is alluding that Kobe not only did not play a FULL season of good defense, but even that his defensive effort is considerable less effective that in the pass. Jackson, in so many words, is saying that Kobe is not playing up to the reputation of a 1st team defensive player. What are your thoughts..this is from his own coach?
cranrab said:
Damn,
TimRock,
What do you think about that. I am not being sarcastic either. Jackson is alluding that Kobe not only did not play a FULL season of good defense, but even that his defensive effort is considerable less effective that in the pass. Jackson, in so many words, is saying that Kobe is not playing up to the reputation of a 1st team defensive player. What are your thoughts..this is from his own coach?
What hype am i caught up in? I never said he deserved to make this team. I was just asking questions. Trying to get a better understanding thats all. Not once did i say Kobe should be MVP or on the all defense team. Never. I never even said he was the best player in the league. If i would have made those comments, then i'd be caught up in the hype. If i came in every kobe thread and tried to make an argument for him being better than Jordan or the best player in the league, then i'd be caught up in the hype and considered an idiot.
I agree, his defense has declined tremendously. In the championship years, Barbosa would have been shut down. I never claimed his defense was spectacular. I dont think he should make 1st, 2nd or 3rd team.
Maybe he should call up Payton again and get some more lessons. Because he seems to have abandoned everything Gary taught him.
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
i wanted to revisit this thread after making some observations.
1) in the 2007 defensive player of the year voting, neither raja bell NOR tobe garnered a SINGLE first place or second place vote. yet they both made 1st team all defense.
2) which guards did get 1st and 2nd place votes for 2007 defensive player of the year? kirk hinrich, quinton ross, caron butler. also backcourt eligible are ron artest and gerald wallace (repeat contenders from 2006).
3) marcus camby was the OVERWHELMING leader for 2007 defensive player of the year. but not so for 1st team all defense. ben wallace had more first place votes than marcus camby.
4) 130 sports writers and broadcasters in two countries vote for defensive player of the year, with no regional or team voting restrictions. 30 head coaches vote for 1st and 2nd team all defense, and team voting restrictions are imposed.
5) 1st and 2nd team all defense members are supposed to be voted upon BY POSITION. yet the 1st team lacks a PG. jason kidd recieved more 1st place votes than raja bell, but ended up on the 2nd team. ben wallace received more 1st place votes than marcus camby at C, but ended up on the 2nd team.
6) san antonio has finished in the top five in opponents PPG and opponents FG% in each of tim duncan’s 10 seasons. incomprehensible.
i wanted to revisit this thread after making some observations.
1) in the 2007 defensive player of the year voting, neither raja bell NOR tobe garnered a SINGLE first place or second place vote. yet they both made 1st team all defense.
2) which guards did get 1st and 2nd place votes for 2007 defensive player of the year? kirk hinrich, quinton ross, caron butler. also backcourt eligible are ron artest and gerald wallace (repeat contenders from 2006).
3) marcus camby was the OVERWHELMING leader for 2007 defensive player of the year. but not so for 1st team all defense. ben wallace had more first place votes than marcus camby.
4) 130 sports writers and broadcasters in two countries vote for defensive player of the year, with no regional or team voting restrictions. 30 head coaches vote for 1st and 2nd team all defense, and team voting restrictions are imposed.
5) 1st and 2nd team all defense members are supposed to be voted upon BY POSITION. yet the 1st team lacks a PG. jason kidd recieved more 1st place votes than raja bell, but ended up on the 2nd team. ben wallace received more 1st place votes than marcus camby at C, but ended up on the 2nd team.
6) san antonio has finished in the top five in opponents PPG and opponents FG% in each of tim duncan’s 10 seasons. incomprehensible.
TrojansFan said:
On the real, the most out of place person on that list is Jason Kidd. I though Chauncey was a much better defender, IMO.
Re: All NBA Defensive Team/Another soon to be tobe Thread
fair and arguable position. let's take a look and see who echoed your opinion (if anyone)
30 nba coaches (all defense teams)
jason kidd 8 1st team votes
chauncey billups 5 1st team votes
130 writers and broadcasters (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
25 NBA GMs (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes (no 1st place votes, did get at least 1 2nd or 3rd place vote)
nba.com (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
tnt insider (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
espn.com (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
Rollie_Fingaz said:
fair and arguable position. let's take a look and see who echoed your opinion (if anyone)
30 nba coaches (all defense teams)
jason kidd 8 1st team votes
chauncey billups 5 1st team votes
130 writers and broadcasters (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
25 NBA GMs (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes (no 1st place votes, did get at least 1 2nd or 3rd place vote)
nba.com (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
tnt insider (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
espn.com (dpoy)
jason kidd 0 votes
chauncey billups 0 votes
Rollie_Fingaz said:
I'm from Detroit.. I have just accepted the fact that Chauncey gets overlooked. I think Kidd gets the nods because in a tangible way in stats..he is ranked well above Chauncey in steals, etc.. very trackable metrics. However, Chauncey is a really good one on one defender..he is fast enough to check the smaller guards and big enough to deal with the more powerful guards like Baron Davis that abuse other smaller guards..
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