? About Phil Jackson...

[Spectrum]

I'm not going to make this a complicated question. We all know the debate about Phil Jackson... he's won with the Jordan..and then Shaq... etc...as if to diminish his accomplishment. I've always thought he's been unappreciated in terms of his very cerebral approach to the game.

My question is this...not because it would put him over Red in terms of title count, but would a win(NBA TITLE) with this squad make him the GOAT in your opinion?

I think the untold story this season is how he's turned this nightmare of a situation into a damn good team. I also like how, in the playoffs, when possible, Jackson seems to keep his teams focused and they don't give games away. He's done that throughout most of his career.

 

[cranrab]

i wouldn't say GOAT, just WINNINGEST. if that's a word.

the system coach jackson uses produces excellent results (if allowed to run properly), and that's difficult for some people to accept/grasp because they prefer to exclude coaching from the formula.

i posted more than once for several years running that the triangle (triple post) O is a recipe for success if you don't have an idiot constantly trying to hijack it. let it run, and it works.

insert poor talent (tobe) + triangle = mediocre team (2005-2007 fakers)

insert mediocre talent (scottie pippen) + triangle = good team (1994, 1995 chicago bulls)

insert great talent (michael jordan, shaquille o'neal) + triangle = great team (1991-1993 bulls, 1996-1998 bulls, 2000-2002 fakers)

 

[Spectrum]

^^^

Makes sense Cran....thanks. The system just continues to "work". I'm not impressed with the Laker's team as much as how much production Jackson has gotten out of them... the system works when everyone "plays their role" as you said.

 

[cranrab]

as much as how much production Jackson has gotten out of them.

and that IS a credit to his (and his staff's) ability. because he and his coaching staff either have to apply pressure to rein in the loose cannons, or give up and say "fuck it, let the inmates run the asylum."

dumb fucks like doug collins continue to marvel at how productive the fakers' 2nd team is, but the reason is pretty clear: THEY WORK WITHIN THE SYSTEM AS A TEAM, AND IT WORKS.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

NO.

I always call Phil Jackson Captain Kirk. He has a team around him that gives him plays (all of which usually work) and he picks the best one.

I give Tex Winter more credit for his teams success than Jackson.

i wouldn't say GOAT, just WINNINGEST. if that's a word.

the system coach jackson uses produces excellent results (if allowed to run properly), and that's difficult for some people to accept/grasp because they prefer to exclude coaching from the formula.

i posted more than once for several years running that the triangle (triple post) O is a recipe for success if you don't have an idiot constantly trying to hijack it. let it run, and it works.

insert poor talent (tobe) + triangle = mediocre team (2005-2007 fakers)

insert mediocre talent (scottie pippen) + triangle = good team (1994, 1995 chicago bulls)

Just to piggyback on this. he had the luxury of having two of the most dominant players on the planet on his squad. The triangle makes you pay for double-teaming, and when the league allowed the zone I KNEW that the Lakers would do well because the triangle is a zone buster.

 

[RunawaySlave]

He may not be the X's and O's guy. But he is definitely the best MANAGER since Red. Maybe better since he's had to deal with prima donnas his entire career

 

[LordSinister]

insert cba talent (Kobe) + triangle = takes Suns to game 7 with Kwame Brown (2005-2007 Lakers)

I fixed it for you homie

Remove Kwame, develop young talent and get #1 seed in the west.

 

[witmoe]

phil can't be over looked as a great coach i reside in coach and doug collins couldn't get us over the hump for years , phil just like he did with the laker team, got into the finals the following year and won it all with pretty much the same team the previous coach had but didn't win the big games, phil is my favorite coach , tell me someone better ?

 

[qweedread]

I'll tell you what made him the G.O.A.T: TEX WINTERS AND HIS TRIANGLE OFFENSE.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Horry: Popovich Is Better Than Jackson
May 13, 2008 - 8:34 pm
The San Antonio Express-News -
Robert Horry has enough championship experience to know what he's talking about when it comes to Hall of Fame coaches, and he believes Gregg Popovich is better than Phil Jackson, according to The San Antonio Express-News.

Three of Horry's seven championship rings came under Jackson in Los Angeles.

"Phil wouldn't yell at the top dogs," Horry said. "Pop will yell at the top dogs, just like he yells at the bottom dogs. That's the biggest key. And Pop preaches defense a little more than Phil."

"If you'd have given Pop all the talent Phil had, I think he'd have more rings than Phil," Horry added.

 

[Spectrum]

"Phil wouldn't yell at the top dogs," Horry said. "Pop will yell at the top dogs, just like he yells at the bottom dogs. That's the biggest key. And Pop preaches defense a little more than Phil."

"If you'd have given Pop all the talent Phil had, I think he'd have more rings than Phil," Horry added.

Having Jordan and Shaq is always gonna be used against Jackson

 

[cranrab]

Phil Jackson...

Having Jordan and Shaq is always gonna be used against Jackson

it's a credit to coach popovich that he doesn't take any primadonna crap. that's a characteristic that unifies and strengthens teams. the "little" guys see that the "stars" aren't exempt from the coach's wrath, and it makes them play harder, knowing they'll get a fair shake.

coach jackson uses a "star" system, so he's always in a juggling/balancing act.

 

[Spectrum]

Re: Phil Jackson...

it's a credit to coach popovich that he doesn't take any primadonna crap. that's a characteristic that unifies and strengthens teams. the "little" guys see that the "stars" aren't exempt from the coach's wrath, and it makes them play harder, knowing they'll get a fair shake.

coach jackson uses a "star" system, so he's always in a juggling/balancing act.

Agreed.

 

[RunawaySlave]

You really think Popavich could have come onto Jordan's team in Jordan's 5th season and berate him like that?? Or how about Shaq in his 4th or 5th season?? I like Pop and what's he's done, but I think Horry is talking shit because he's still playing for Pop, while he knows he'll never play for Jackson again (being that these are probably his last seasons.

Pop got Tim Duncan when he was a rookie, so of course he is going to be able to handle that. Also, Duncan had David Robinson (the good soldier) in tow as his mentor. Plus, as a 4 year college man, he was already a pretty grounded and secure type of brotha to begin with. Their situations are totally different.

Pop also got Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli (his only other "stars") as NBA rookies as well

 

[cranrab]

Pop got Tim Duncan when he was a rookie, so of course he is going to be able to handle that. Also, Duncan had David Robinson (the good soldier) in tow as his mentor. Plus, as a 4 year college man, he was already a pretty ground and secre type of brotha to begin with. The situations are totally different.

Pop also got Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli (his only other "stars) as NBA rookies (Ginobli's older, but still a rookie) as well

and that speaks to the rest of the equation. credit due to the players who are willing to submit to the coach and his goals for the team. but in too many instances, you get young undisciplined players who would rather mutiny and organize treason against the head coach.

 

[wish112]

So Red Auerbach didn't have players?? Bob Cousy, Bill Russell, John Havlicek just to name a few.. Give Phill his credit when credit is due. Plus how can Popovich be better than Phill when hes never won a back to back titles?? Phill has done now what 3 or 4 times?

 

[RunawaySlave]

needs to be bumped

 

[cranrab]

needs to be bumped

agreed.

eewwll's question seems to pop up every season.

 

[RunawaySlave]

after reading this thread all over again, I still have no conclusion whether Jackson is greater than Red Auerbach, but what I DO conclude is that RUSSELL IS PROBABLY THE GREATEST PLAYER. Not because of any particular skill but because he did what he did over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER FOR ONE TEAM. To me, that kind of consistency equals being the greatest and he CONSISTENTLY was the champion of the league. For whatever reasons (excuses), no other player has ever done it to the effectiveness of Bill Russell

 

[cranrab]

after reading this thread all over again, I still have no conclusion whether Jackson is greater than Red Auerbach, but what I DO conclude is that RUSSELL IS PROBABLY THE GREATEST PLAYER.

the more one considers bill russell's achievements, the more amazing they become.

some people get stuck on the ring count; others marginalize bill russell's accomplishments due to the era and the peers he played with and against.

the 1 feat that will stand forever and NEVER be broken is bill russell as SIMULTANEOUS PLAYER/COACH on REPEAT NBA champion squads.

the 2nd most amazing feat in NBA history is michael jordan EXPLODING the basketball axiom about a big man being required to win a championship.

 

[Spectrum]

the 1 feat that will stand forever and NEVER be broken is bill russell as SIMULTANEOUS PLAYER/COACH on REPEAT NBA champion squads.

Yeah. That is pretty damn crazy