A Theory of Consciousness?

It wasn't really a right or wrong question ... just asking for an opinion ...



I am not sure, but my personal belief is that consciousness is programmable... but then that just opens a pandora's box of other deeper existential questions, because if consciousness can be programmed then it is essentially just another body part like the eye, hand, or heart ... which to me means there is something behind this consciousness in the being or simply put consciousness is not a sign of 'life'

Some of the Eastern Practices teach of this 'Higher Being' and I tend to agree but that is neither here nor there or has any place in a 'scientific' discussion IMO

I agree with you,more from the stand point that its so common or rather i assume experienced in such a similar way by conscious beings , with all the variables in what makes us human, trying accomplishing something we would assume to be complicated like consciousness with out some level of specific algorithms.
 
It wasn't really a right or wrong question ... just asking for an opinion ...


I'm aware of that, but my initial response is irrelevant because I misunderstood the context to your original inquiry. I even said as such when I attempted to interpret your meaning.
 
It wasn't really a right or wrong question ... just asking for an opinion ...



I am not sure, but my personal belief is that consciousness is programmable... but then that just opens a pandora's box of other deeper existential questions, because if consciousness can be programmed then it is essentially just another body part like the eye, hand, or heart ... which to me means there is something behind this consciousness in the being or simply put consciousness is not a sign of 'life'

Some of the Eastern Practices teach of this 'Higher Being' and I tend to agree but that is neither here nor there or has any place in a 'scientific' discussion IMO


 
ghost in the shell is the best anime series ever.
Let's not get carried away :hmm:
*cough*
Trigun
*cough*
Cowboy Bebop
*cough*
Samurai Champloo
*cough* :D

I agree with http://www.bgol.us/board/images/smilies/biggrin.gifyou,more from the stand point that its so common or rather i assume experienced in such a similar way by conscious beings , with all the variables in what makes us human, trying accomplishing something we would assume to be complicated like consciousness with out some level of specific algorithms.
Exactly ... but I assume you attribute the algorithms as fitting a pattern created by nature ... vs an 'artificial' or 'divine' pattern created by algorithms?

In other words we are trying to get order (math/science) out of chaos (nature) not figure out the order out of a higher order

I'm aware of that, but my initial response is irrelevant because I misunderstood the context to your original inquiry. I even said as such when I attempted to interpret your meaning.

tbh I am not sure what part of the question you didn't get ... it was only 5 words long so I can't figure out what part to 'simplify' for you to better understand ... wasn't that important anyways ... don't sweat it ... real spit
 
Let's not get carried away :hmm:
*cough*
Trigun
*cough*
Cowboy Bebop
*cough*
Samurai Champloo
*cough* :D


Exactly ... but I assume you attribute the algorithms as fitting a pattern created by nature ... vs an 'artificial' or 'divine' pattern created by algorithms?



tbh I am not sure what part of the question you didn't get ... it was only 5 words long so I can't figure out what part to 'simplify' for you to better understand ... wasn't that important anyways ... don't sweat it ... real spit


You should do yourself a favor and watch the anime's Gungrave and Ergo Proxy.
 
i've heard of those claims before and as far as I'm aware there's no supporting scientific evidence for it. Do you know of any?
I'm almost certain that there's no know mechanism for body tissues other than those of the brain to store and transmit and process memory.

I never looked into it deep enough to see if there was any scientific evidence. Never thought about the claims deep enough, just saw this post and it reminded me of the claims.

You seem heavy into this consciousness thing so if there was anybody on here to ask about that, it was you.
 
Ray Kurzweil
He has been pushing for transhumanism hard. The merger of man and machine is already underway.
For anyone who is interested in good ole Ray Ray's postulations.

book25.jpg

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2PF0ZAW0

Not a big fan of Kurzweil. But he's a futurist so I guess that's his trade. I share some of the skepticism about this impending 'Singularity' (according to Kurzweil, within the next 20 years!) that others like science journalist and skeptic John Horgan have. Specifically, the whole trans-humanism immortality thing. Humans interfacing with machines via nanotechnology, medicine and A.I. and 'consciousness' being transfered (or trans-morphed?) resulting in cyborgs or some bio-mechanical hybrid that's immortal. My question's always been, by what mechanism is Kurzweil suggesting that this will occur? I haven't read any of his books so can anyone fill me in if he actually explains this? Thanks.

1) Most of the experts on senescence maintain that there's a theoretical ceiling for biological aging. Several theories of aging support this, all of which hinge on the concept of the natural homeostatic regulation. Aka, 'life' and 'death' is a cycle. Kurzweil assumes that a human/machine hybrid can live forever chiefly because of the machine attributes forgetting that even machines can't, in principle and theory, "live forever". Perpetual motion violates the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

2) Also, evolution has built in aging because there's a smaller probability of an organism still being alive at older age, due to random events like predation and accidental fuck ups. Higher reproductive rates at a young age and shorter overall lifespan, eventually result in a higher lifetime of reproductive success which is what natural selection favors.

Therefore, aging is the outcome of investing resources in reproduction, RATHER THAN about the maintenance of the body especially when you can't avoid unprecedented events like predators, climate changes, accidents and disease that will eventually kill organisms no matter how much energy is devoted to repair of the body. An earthquake or tsunami will fuck everything and everyone up. Including cyborgs.
 
c/s^

I consider him a pop scientist

tho I am an aspiring 'futurist' of sorts ... I think his presentation is dumbed down ...
 
Nah. Never been big on SciFi like that. What's the breakdown or do I actually have to watch it? (or i'll just read the wikipedia article)



Im not sure i agree with his example, especially if its the hall mark of what he considers the secondary consciousness. I own a dog and i can tell you it can plot and strategies in reference to previous events and in some cases startlingly well. In addition in one of my previous jobs i had to go into peoples back yards for technical inspections and their were certain dogs that anticipating me positioned themselves in the most perfect way...is he suggesting that these things are by chance and not some conscious scheming(based off previous events)?
It was just an example. I doubt that it's the hallmark of his argument as there are animals that have way more sophisticated behavior than dogs. Which leads to the concept of intelligence, which is often conflated with consciousness. Although there's a wide overlap between the two, consciousness refers to the 'waking-aware' aspects of our mental lives and intelligence the degree of imagination, creativity and efficiency. In other words, consciousness precedes intelligence.

Bearing this in mind, and the fact that intelligence is highly dependent on memory: short term (what he calls "remembered present", primary consciousness) and to a much greater extent, long term ("remembered past", secondary consciousness). Dogs just don't have the neurophysiological apparatus to support long-term memory like humans. He explains the reason for this when he talks about the evolution of the brain. So there's the supporting empirical evidence of the physical brain anatomy and dynamics which he presents in the lecture that you can't just ignore.

Long-term memory affords you a more extensive repertoire of events and scenarios to generate ideas within changing contexts during decision making and problem solving. These involve planning, foresight and judgement that animals like dogs and even chimps or dolphins aint built for. As in, it wasn't an evolutionary necessity.

Sure your dog can anticipate several patterns that precede a specific significant action that you perform, like feeding it, or bathing it, or locking it in it's kennel. It can act in a way that appears to be planned but it's not doing shit like predicting that you're gonna come home late from work because it remembers it's the Thursday the 25th of November and your turn to take the fellas out for drinks and then prepare ahead of time by stashing extra food away on the 20th. Only dog i know with kinda anticipation is Brian from Family Guy.

It's all about the efficiency of making use of new or recollected information in a new context. Even idiot savant humans that have kick-ass ability to recall detail suck at making use of it in a new context.

Also, there's the common mistaken notion of complexity in behavior trending with intelligence or consciousness. In fact, many complex behaviors in animals (like termites building massive intricate colonies, intricate nest architectures of some birds, etc.) are innate and no learning is needed. They're wired from birth. These behaviors are inflexible and animals are incapable of performing them at will. Just like yawning, sneezing and blushing for us. They're what's called 'stereotyped' behaviors. Often confused as intelligence or a human like consciousness but they're not. There's no self-awareness and no innovation, imagination or creativity that even comes close to human capability. Even squirrels stashing away acorns prepping for winter. That's not anticipation or planing. It's a Melatonin hormone driven response modulated by seasonal climate changes.



With this how can it not be encode for by some form of rudimentary "programming"? he mentioned in the video how dynamic our brains are and i get that...but the fact that we're so similar in what" we do as people" suggest that we cant be that "context-dependent, dynamic," their has to be some sorta static underlay, some common recipe(algorithm) for the cake, or else we all wouldn't have things that look like cake would we?
We are very very far from similar in what we DO as people let alone what we ARE. The later differences he clearly explains in the video when he talks about embryo-genesis and neuro-genesis.
But watch these clips:

The theory of neural Darwinism (Part 1)
[FLASH]http://www.webofstories.com/embed/flvplayer.swf?file=stories/1029/37.flv&streamer=rtmp://cdn1.webofstories.com/cfx/st/[/FLASH]


Why I don't think the brain is a computer
[FLASH]http://www.webofstories.com/embed/flvplayer.swf?file=stories/1029/36.flv&streamer=rtmp://cdn1.webofstories.com/cfx/st/[/FLASH]
 
I am not sure, but my personal belief is that consciousness is programmable... but then that just opens a pandora's box of other deeper existential questions, because if consciousness can be programmed then it is essentially just another body part like the eye, hand, or heart ... which to me means there is something behind this consciousness in the being or simply put consciousness is not a sign of 'life'
And I agree. This is the classic problem of dualism. Are you familiar with the term "homunculus"?


In other words we are trying to get order (math/science) out of chaos (nature) not figure out the order out of a higher order
c/s :yes: This is what David Bohm is talking bout with his Wholeness and Implicate Order and theory of enfolded order within chaos.



I agree with you,more from the stand point that its so common or rather i assume experienced in such a similar way by conscious beings , with all the variables in what makes us human, trying accomplishing something we would assume to be complicated like consciousness with out some level of specific algorithms.

1) Tical, how do you distinguish (or do you?) this from the search for a divine source for understanding of the our place in the universe? Like the concept of God.
2) When I say consciousness is not a thing but a process, do you understand what this means?
 
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Nah. Never been big on SciFi like that. What's the breakdown or do I actually have to watch it? (or i'll just read the wikipedia article)



the movie/series is/are set in a future where transhumanism is pretty much the norm, with most people having augmented 'cyber brains', which allows people to have their 'selves' (ghosts) downloaded and uploaded into new bodies (shells). they're more computer like in the sense that wireless communication goes from brain to brain (giving the impression that they're communicating telepathically), access the "net" (radical form of the internet), which in turn can allow for a person to be hacked like a computer. on the flipside robotics have become so advanced, that it's arguable (among the characters as well as the fans) that they're capable of being sentient. ironically, the mind/body problem still persists, as well as questions on what makes up consciousness, and reality. the vid above is from the movie, and the series expands on these themes.
 
With this how can it not be encode for by some form of rudimentary "programming"? he mentioned in the video how dynamic our brains are and i get that...but the fact that we're so similar in what" we do as people" suggest that we cant be that "context-dependent, dynamic," their has to be some sorta static underlay, some common recipe(algorithm) for the cake, or else we all wouldn't have things that look like cake would we?


kinda how i feel

but i have a question
how do we know if something does or doesnt have the same kind of consciousness as us unless we ask it?
some or all animals could be just as aware of being aware as us but they have no more way of tellin us about it
if neuron functions are interchangeable and unique, even among twins, then there could be alot goin on in animal brains that we assume couldnt be happenin just cause it would make them "too human"
 


:yes: sean do yourself a favor and d/l the movie (and series if you have the time).
Ok. I will.

I understand that this is sci-fi and all and can see how it can be very seductive to the scientific thinker. I have no problem with that and I think it can actually furnish creativity and imgination when it's not taken overboard. I enjoy sci-fi the same way I enjoy other fantasy based flicks, I really don't take it any further than that personally.

But the part of the video above that I was really interested in was from 4:00 when the "cybernetic organism/entity/program" dude was explaining taking on a new out-of-body "life form" by his "free will". The argument that DNA is a program designed to preserve itself is just plain wrong!

2 questions:

1) Did you guys understand what Edelman was talking about when he explained the concept of degeneracy?
Ref: http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=9255246&postcount=13

2) what's the difference between this "matrix like" idea and intelligent design?
 
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Excellent thread here. Awareness of surrounding is where many individuals claim perpetual intelligence. Many people consider themselves experts not knowing that the higher level of consciousness is awareness of self. Which can only start to be individually appreciated when one stops deceiving oneself.
When you start thinking of higher awareness then you are simply
speaking of truth in its purist form. This is where we began to lose are grips on information and now grasp knowledge.
Computers are masterful at retaining information. But the experience between our surroundings and a growing awareness of self
is our advantage over spiritless robotics. Needless to say they can
still create a robot that can function more efficiently with the information programmed in it.
Maybe the fact that lieing to itself is not an option with a android.
 
2 questions:

1) Did you guys understand what Edelman was talking about when he explained the concept of degeneracy?
Ref: http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=9255246&postcount=13


seemed like the guy said neurons and/or groups of neurons dont have specific roles in the way that we're used to thinking of them. even in a mostly closed off set of neurons, each one in that group may do different task at different times.


2) what's the difference between this "matrix like" idea and intelligent design?

i think i got something but i'm gonna watch those 2 other vids u posted before i answer


..........
 
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kinda how i feel

but i have a question
how do we know if something does or doesnt have the same kind of consciousness as us unless we ask it?
some or all animals could be just as aware of being aware as us but they have no more way of tellin us about it
if neuron functions are interchangeable and unique, even among twins, then there could be alot goin on in animal brains that we assume couldnt be happenin just cause it would make them "too human"
1) It's called attribution. You infer off of behavior patterns. I know that the human I interact with has a consciousness like mine because he displays all the characteristics of a self-aware thinking being. I know a cat has the level of consciousness it does, whatever you wana categorize it as, because it displays characteristics of an animal that's not self aware. I know that a hamburger isn't a conscious being because it displays all the characteristics of a sandwich. I don't have to ask.

2) That's unfounded speculation and not science. No different from suggesting that there are invisible guardian angels flying around and we're not aware of it because they have no way of revealing themselves to us.

3) There are no assumptions. The inferences of the very clear distinctions are based on empirical neuroscience and ethology (study of animal behavioral in the context of animal anatomy, physiology, neurobiology, evolution, phylogenetic history, etc.)



Excellent thread here. Awareness of surrounding is where many individuals claim perpetual intelligence. Many people consider themselves experts not knowing that the higher level of consciousness is awareness of self. Which can only start to be individually appreciated when one stops deceiving oneself.
When you start thinking of higher awareness then you are simply
speaking of truth in its purist form. This is where we began to lose are grips on information and now grasp knowledge.
Computers are masterful at retaining information. But the experience between our surroundings and a growing awareness of self
is our advantage
over spiritless robotics. Needless to say they can
still create a robot that can function more efficiently with the information programmed in it.
Maybe the fact that lieing to itself is not an option with a android.
c/s. Computers, in principle, no matter how computationally powerful are just "information-retrieving-machines" that operate through instructions and syntactic memory. The brain operates through selection and semantic memory.
 
seemed like the guy said neurons and/or groups of neurons dont have specific roles in the way that we're used to thinking of them. even in a mostly closed off set of neurons, each one in that group may do different task at different times.
Yes, that's part of it. What he's saying is this:

Degeneracy: The ability of elements that are structurally different to perform the same function or yield the same output.

So AMBIGUITY; structurally different interacting neurons/neural-networks are a prerequisite for mental/perceptual processing because they cause associativity which is the beginning of the neurological process. On the other hand, the PRECISION that's sought after in computing, is posterior. i.e, it comes into play after, later on.

You first start with metaphors and then reduce/reconstruct rules (algorithims, math, code, axioms, whatever) to describe or explain. Not the other way round. This is how the brain and mind work. I believe this is what LesW was sort of alluding to in his post:
In other words we are trying to get order (math/science) out of chaos (nature) not figure out the order out of a higher order
Order being precision, chaos being ambiguity. Correct me if i'm wrong Les W.
 
And I agree. This is the classic problem of dualism. Are you familiar with the term "homunculus"?

I googled it and this is what I got:

brain-homunculus.gif


Which is how the brain would look to the body based on the amount of neural connections :eek:
 
Yes, that's part of it. What he's saying is this:

Degeneracy: The ability of elements that are structurally different to perform the same function or yield the same output.

So AMBIGUITY; structurally different interacting neurons/neural-networks are a prerequisite for mental/perceptual processing because they cause associativity which is the beginning of the neurological process. On the other hand, the PRECISION that's sought after in computing, is posterior. i.e, it comes into play after, later on.

You first start with metaphors and then reduce/reconstruct rules (algorithims, math, code, axioms, whatever) to describe or explain. Not the other way round. This is how the brain and mind work. I believe this is what LesW was sort of alluding to in his post:Order being precision, chaos being ambiguity. Correct me if i'm wrong Les W.

Basically in other words we are creating formulas that explain/predict randomness .... and not discovering there is a formula that we just can't see

btw this is not what I was saying but asking if that is what tical meant ... I actually think it is a matter of opinion based on one's view of the universe or at least the origin of consciousness
 
I googled it and this is what I got:

brain-homunculus.gif


Which is how the brain would look to the body based on the amount of neural connections :eek:


The problem of the homunculus and the origin of language

[FLASH]http://www.webofstories.com/embed/flvplayer.swf?file=stories/1029/54.flv&streamer=rtmp://cdn1.webofstories.com/cfx/st/[/FLASH]



Basically in other words we are creating formulas that explain/predict randomness .... and not discovering there is a formula that we just can't see

btw this is not what I was saying but asking if that is what tical meant ... I actually think it is a matter of opinion based on one's view of the universe or at least the origin of consciousness
I agree. We'll see.
 
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