Syria Fires on Israeli Warplanes

[QueEx]

Syria 'fires on Israel warplanes'
Syria has said its air defences opened fire
on Israeli warplanes after they violated
its airspace in the north of the country

An Israeli F16C fighter jet lands at the Ramat David
Israeli air force base in 2006. Syria has said its air
defences opened fire on Israeli warplanes which had
violated Syrian airspace at dawn, ratcheting up the
tensions between the neighbouring foes.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5c880pdp8fS4M5-vVocPVMii0lA


BBC News
Thursday, 6 September 2007

Syrian officials said the defences forced the jets to drop ammunition over deserted areas and turn back, according to the official news agency, Sana.

Israel's military said it would not comment on the reports.

Israel and Syria remain technically at war and tensions between them have been rising in recent months.

The Syrian government has insisted that peace talks can be resumed only on the basis of Israel returning the Golan Heights, which it seized in 1967.

Israeli authorities, for their part, have demanded that Syria abandon its support for Palestinian and Lebanese militant groups before talks can begin.

'Military messages'

A Syrian spokesman said the Israeli aircraft had flown into Syrian airspace from the Mediterranean Sea at around 0100 local time on Thursday morning, Sana reported.

They were then engaged by Syrian air defence forces in the Tall al-Abyad, an area 160km (100 miles) north of Raqqa and near the border with Turkey, witnesses said.

"Air defence units confronted them and forced them to leave after they dropped some ammunition in deserted areas without causing any human or material damage," the spokesman said.

Pilots sometimes jettison extra fuel to make their aircraft lighter and easier to manoeuvre.

Syria's Information Minister, Mohsen Bilal, told al-Jazeera TV that his government was "seriously studying the nature of the response".

"Israel in fact does not want peace," he said. "It cannot survive without aggression, treachery and military messages."

Tensions

Officials in Damascus said Syrian forces last fired at Israeli warplanes in June 2006, when they flew over the summer residence of the Syrian president in Lattakia, while he was inside.

Over the past few months, the leaders of both countries have both stressed that they do not want war.

But both sides have also been preparing for possible conflict.

In June, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert insisted his country did not want war with Syria, and that he had communicated this to Damascus through diplomatic channels.

He also repeated his warning that a "miscalculation" could spark hostilities between the two.

Mr Olmert's statement came after the Israeli military staged major exercises in the Golan Heights.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6981674.stm

 

[QueEx]

Alert declared in Israeli Air and Air Defense Forces

DEBKAFile
September 6, 2007

Leaves have also been canceled at IDF bases. Israeli official spokesmen declined to comment on the Syrian News Agency claim that Israeli warplanes entered its air space from the Mediterranean Sea before dawn Thursday - heading northeast and breaking the sound barrier. Syria fire forced them to leave without causing casualties, says the report. Arab and European stations quote Syrian sources as accusing the Israeli air force of bombing empty areas. DEBKAfile: The Kamishli area mentioned in the report is where the Syrian, Turkish and Iraqi borders meet.

The IDF spokesman say the incident is under investigation.

A Syrian spokesman warned “the Zionist enemy against repeating aggressive action” and said his government reserved the right to respond.

DEBKAfile military sources speculate the Syrians may have referred to a possible Israeli surveillance flight which finding itself under fire may have dumped a fuel tank to gain speed; Damascus may be seeking to raise the military temperatures between the two countries for its own purposes, or fabricating a pretext to go on the offensive against Israeli targets on the Golan.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=4571

 

[thoughtone]

I could give 2 damns about Israel.

 

[QueEx]

But aren't the implications always wider than just, Israel ?

QueEx

 

[QueEx]

Advanced Russian Air Defense Missile Cannot Protect Syrian and Iranian Skies

Russian-made Pantsyr S1 fire
control and radar systems


DEBKAfile Exclusive Military Report
September 7, 2007, 1:16 PM

DEBKAfile’s military experts conclude from the way Damascus described the episode Wednesday, Sept. 6, that the Pantsyr-S1E missiles, purchased from Russia to repel air assailants, failed to down the Israeli jets accused of penetrating northern Syrian airspace from the Mediterranean the night before.

The new Pantsyr missiles therefore leave Syrian and Iranian airspace vulnerable to hostile intrusion.

The Israeli plane or planes were described by a Syrian military spokesman as “forced to leave by Syrian air defense fire after dropping ammunition over deserted areas without causing casualties.” He warned “the Israeli enemy against repeating its aggressive action” and said his government reserved the right to respond in an appropriate manner.

Israeli Overflights a Test by the West ???
Western intelligence circles stress that information on Russian missile consignments to Syria or Iran is vital to any US calculation of whether to attack Iran over its nuclear program. They assume that the “absolute jamming immunity” which the Russian manufactures promised for the improved Pantsyr missiles was immobilized by superior electronic capabilities exercised by the jets before they were “forced to leave.”

Western intelligence circles maintain that it is vital for the US and Israel to establish the location and gauge the effectiveness of Pantsyr-S1E air defenses in Syrian and Iranian hands, as well as discovering how many each received.

They estimate that at least three or four batteries of the first batch of ten were shipped to Iran to boost its air defense arsenal; another 50 are thought to be on the way, of which Syria will keep 36.


Russia's Newest Air Defense System; Can be Beaten ???
Syria took delivery in mid-August of 10 batteries of sophisticated Russian Pantsyr-S1E Air Defense Missile fire control systems with advanced radar, those sources report. They have just been installed in Syria.

Pantsir-S1 or Panzir (“Shell" in English) is a short-range, mobile air defense system, combining two 30mm anti-aircraft guns and 12 surface-to-air missiles which can fire on the move. It can simultaneously engage two separate targets at 12 targets per minute, ranging from fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, ballistic and cruise missiles, precision-guided munitions and unmanned air vehicles. It can also engage light-armored ground targets.

The Pantsyr S1 short-range air defense system is designed to provide point defense of key military and industrial facilities and air defense support for military units during air and ground operations.

The integrated missile and gun armament creates an uninterrupted engagement zone of 18 to 20 km in range and of up to 10 km in altitude. Immunity to jamming is promised via a common multimode and multi-spectral radar and optical control system. The combined missile and artillery capability makes the Russian system the most advanced air defense system in the world. Syria and Iran believe it provides the best possible protection against American or Israeli air and missile attack. Stationed in al Hamma, at the meeting point of the Syrian-Jordanian and Israeli borders, the missile’s detection range of 30 km takes in all of Israel’s northern air force bases.

Understanding that the Pantsyr-S1E had failed in its mission to bring down trespassing aircraft, Moscow hastened Thursday, Sept 6, to officially deny selling these systems to Syria or Iran and called on Israel to respect international law. This was diplomatic-speak for a warning against attacking the Russian-made missiles batteries stations where Russian instructors are working alongside Syrian teams.

The purported Israeli air force flights over the Pantsyr-S1E site established that the new Russian missiles, activated for the first time in the Middle East, are effective and dangerous but can be disarmed. Western military sources attribute to those Israeli or other air force planes superior electronics for jamming the Russian missile systems, but stress nonetheless that they were extremely lucky to get away unharmed, or at worst, with damage minor enough for a safe return to base.

The courage, daring and operational skills of the air crews must have been exceptional. They would have needed to spend enough time in hostile Syrian air space to execute several passes at varying altitudes under fire in order to test the Pantsyr-S1E responses. Their success demonstrated to Damascus and Tehran that their expensive new Russian anti-air system leaves them vulnerable.

Washington like Jerusalem withheld comment in the immediate aftermath of the episode. After its original disclosure, Damascus too is holding silent. Western intelligence sources believe the Syrians in consultation with the Russians and Tehran are weighing action to gain further media mileage from the incident. They may decide to exhibit some of the “ammunition” dropped by the Israeli aircraft as proof of Israel’s contempt for international law. A military response may come next.



http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1301

 

[Obadiah Plainman]

Seems more like Isreali jets flew into Syrian air space dropped a few ordanances and Syria returned fire. Funny how, when in stories involving Isreal the leads are often phrased to make Isreal the victim.

 

[QueEx]

O.P.,

(1) "DebkaFile" is an <u>Israeli</u> news/so-called-intelligence outfit. Hence, you expect local bias.

(2) Somehow I believe the flight into Syria was at least in part the product of U.S. urging. The missile defense system has to be tested: Israel has an interest in knowing its effectiveness; and the U.S. has a strong interest in knowing its characteristics and how countermeasures may be deployed. The system is being deployed in Syria and Iran - - both theatres where American-made assets may have to face them.

QueEx

 

[Obadiah Plainman]

O.P.,

(1) "DebkaFile" is an <u>Israeli</u> news/so-called-intelligence outfit. Hence, you expect local bias.

(2) Somehow I believe the flight into Syria was at least in part the product of U.S. urging. The missile defense system has to be tested: Israel has an interest in knowing its effectiveness; and the U.S. has a strong interest in knowing its characteristics and how countermeasures may be deployed. The system is being deployed in Syria and Iran - - both theatres where American-made assets may have to face them.

QueEx

Fits with the idea of "The Coming Wars", by Seymore Hersh. Western forces instigating then invading Middle Eastern nations, under the auspicies of protecting allies and the free world from radical despots.

 

[QueEx]

Fits with the idea of "The Coming Wars", by Seymore Hersh. Western forces instigating then invading Middle Eastern nations, under the auspicies of protecting allies and the free world from radical despots.

LOL. Nah man; not that serious.

More like just testing the reaction of a new weapons system. The public rarely gets to know it, but countries test the reaction of other countries new and old weapons systems all the time, and would be foolish not to. Don't think for a minute that when the U.S. deploys a new system, the Russians and Chinese (to the extent they have the capability) don't do whatever they can to probe that system.

Why do you think the Ruskies reinstituted their Bear flights? - certainly not to play with the buttons and knobs. Hell, the Chinese, which has not had long-range overflight capability has just stolen the shit, right under our noses.

QueEx

 

[QueEx]

Israeli air strike 'took out Syria's secret nuclear site'​

​

Daily Mail
17th September 2007

Israel destroyed a fledgling Syrian nuclear weapons system in a recent air raid it has been claimed.

The suggestion fuelled speculation that the air strike on a remote area of northern Syria wiped out a secret nuclear programme established with North Korean equipment.

John Bolton, the former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told Israeli television: "I think it would be unusual for Israel to conduct a military operation inside Syria other than for a very high value target, and certainly a Syrian effort in the nuclear weapons area would qualify."

He added: "I think this is a clear message not only to Syria. I think it's a clear message to Iran as well that its continued efforts to acquire nuclear weapons are not going to go unanswered."

Israel imposed a rare news blackout after the raid.

But Syria claimed Israeli warplanes were forced to drop their munitions and fuel harmlessly in the desert after coming under anti-aircraft fire.

Syria has also protested to Israel about the breach of its airspace and threatened to retaliate.

In a marked escalation of the crisis last night, Iran reportedly threatened to rally to Syria's defence if its Arab ally is attacked by either by Israel or the U.S.

Israeli radio claimed a Persian-language website had suggested Iran has 600 Shihab-3 missiles that it will launch at Israel on the first day Iran or Syria is attacked.

With a possible range of up to 1,260 miles, the Shihab-3 could reach all of Israel, including its nuclear reactor in the south.

The website also said that Iran would launch up to 15 missiles at U.S. targets inside Iraq if either Iran or Syria is attacked.

The air raid came amid heightened tensions over Iran's nuclear ambitions and fears that another country in the Middle East may be aligning itself with North Korea over an atomic programme.

Syria continues to host Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other deadly terror groups in its capital Damascus.

It has also been accused of allowing Iran to ship huge amounts of military hardware across its territory to the Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Israel has always made clear it will respond if attacked, perhaps with its own, far superior nuclear capability.

The news blackout means Israeli newspapers have been forced to recycle speculation from around the world.

One of the most common claims is that the target of the attack was a shipment of nuclear weapons from North Korea bound for use by Syria or possibly to be passed on to Hezbollah.

The Israeli daily newspaper Maariv quoted 'foreign reports' of a raid by combined air and ground forces more than 200 miles inside Syrian territory.

It suggested "the operation carried out was one of the most dangerous and brilliant in the history of the Israeli defence forces".

Andrew Semmel, the US deputy assistant secretary of state for nuclear nonproliferation, said Syria was on the country's nuclear 'watch list'.

"There are indicators that they do have something going on there," he added.

"We do know there are a number of foreign technicians that have been in Syria."

"We do know that there may have been contact between Syria and some secret suppliers for nuclear equipment."

The few tight-lipped comments coming from Israeli leaders seemed, however, to suggest that any danger was past - at least for now.

The raid is said to have involved a group of up to eight Israeli F-15 warplanes, which penetrated Syrian airspace before dawn on September 6.

Two jettisoned fuel tanks were later discovered in Turkish territory.

It was the first Israeli raid into Syria since October 2003, when Israeli jets attacked a terrorist training camp on the outskirts of Damascus.

If it is confirmed that the air strike was to destroy a nuclear site in Syria, it will evoke memories of Israel's 1981 raid on an Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osiraq.

The facility was crippled in a surprise attack aimed at preventing Saddam Hussein from acquiring the means to make nuclear weapons.


• The U.S. and Iran were urged last night to cool their warlike rhetoric.

The UN's chief nuclear negotiator, Mohamed ElBaradei, also condemned as 'hype' a French warning that the world should prepare for war over Tehran's nuclear programme.

In a pointed dig at the U.S., he told the international community to remember the debacle in Iraq before considering any similar action against Iran.

"There are rules on how to use force and I would hope that everybody would have gotten the lesson after the Iraq situation, where 700,000 innocent civilians have lost their lives on the suspicion that a country has nuclear weapons," he said.

Rising tension between Washington and Tehran comes as the U.S. pressures Britain to beef up military patrols along Iran's border with Iraq.

At Washington's request last week Britain moved 350 soldiers to police the border east of Basra.

Senior Iranian officials believe the U.S. is too bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan to launch another war.

The withdrawal of UK forces from the centre of Basra earlier this month has also been portrayed by Iran as a "shameful defeat for the British occupiers".

French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner said at the weekend that a nuclear Iran would be a "danger for the whole world".

He added: "We have to prepare for the worst."

"And the worst is war."

 

[QueEx]

More and more, this looks like an Israeli Preemptive Strike

 

[QueEx]

Shots in the dark over Syria's skies​

​

​

Asia Times
By Sami Moubayed
September 2007

DAMASCUS - Israeli opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu, while becoming the first official of that country to admit that it did conduct an air raid into Syria on September 6, sheds no further light on the escapade, thus adding to the mountain of speculation that already exists on the incident.

Netanyahu said on Thursday that he had given Prime Minister Ehud Olmert his support for "an attack", and promptly drew a rebuke from the premier for speaking out of turn.

Israel has imposed a media blackout on the events of the night of September 6, when Syria claimed its airspace in the northern province of Raqqa had been violated and that its defenses forced Israeli F-15 jets to flee, dropping "munitions" and fuel tanks in the desert near the Turkish border.

The US media insist, however, that the Israelis hit something major. The latest reports, attributed to "US government sources", say that Israel, with tacit assistance and support from the US, bombed a facility at which nuclear weapons were being developed with assistance from North Korea.

Both Syria and North Korea have denied that they are cooperating in nuclear technology, and Pyongyang issued a harsh condemnation of the Israeli intrusion into Syrian airspace.

The two countries insist that the accusations have been fabricated by the US for political reasons - mainly targeting North Korea. Hawks, notably former US ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton, are concerned by the peaceful direction in which the six-party talks on North Korea's nuclear program are going, preferring confrontation.

Joshua Landis, a professor at Oklahoma University who is an expert on Syrian affairs and runs Syriacomment.com, said: "Bolton represents the crowd that is very distressed that the US has declared defeat in North Korea by trusting the North Koreans. They would like to scuttle that agreement."

A diplomat associated with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) was quoted saying that the organization didn't know anything about any nuclear facility in Syria.

Buthaina Shaaban, Syria's minister of expatriate affairs, commented to Al-Manar TV, "All this rubbish is not true. I don't know how their imagination has reached such creativity." She added, "Regretfully, the international press is busy justifying an aggression on a sovereign state, and the world should be busy condemning it instead of inventing reasons and aims of this aggression."

The North Korea-Syria story started when Andrew Semmel of the US State Department claimed that Syria "might have" obtained nuclear equipment from "secret suppliers", adding that "there are North Korean people there [in Syria]. There is no question about that."

He repeated claims, made as early as 2004, that a network run by Abdul Qadeer Khan, the now-disgraced Pakistani nuclear scientist who is believed to have supplied gas centrifuges and uranium hexaflouride to North Korea, operated from Syria. But there is no evidence whatsoever - otherwise it would have surfaced - of the Khan network operating from Syrian territory.

Journalists in the US took it from there, saying that North Korean leader Kim Jong-il might be hiding material in Syria, while pretending to rid his country of nuclear weapons to improve relations with the US.

There were reports that three days before the Israeli attack, a ship carrying North Korean material labeled as "cement" unloaded its cargo in Syria. That material, the reports said, was believed to be nuclear equipment.

The reports have not gone unchallenged. Joseph Cirincione, author of Bomb Scare: The History and Future of Nuclear Weapons and a senior fellow and director for nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress, said, "This story is nonsense."

As mentioned above, the North Korea story is not new. It started in 2004 when Bolton, then under secretary for arms control, accused Syria of harboring nuclear ambitions. This was part of the stream of accusations against Syria after the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

First it was that cronies of Saddam Hussein had fled to Damascus. When they were arrested one after the other within Iraq, the story was changed: Saddam's weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria. When that proved false, Bolton came out with his thundering accusation.

This prompted the IAEA to investigate, after which it said there was no evidence to back the claims. IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei commented on June 26, 2004, "We haven't gotten any piece of information on why we should be concerned about Syria."

David Albright, a former United Nations weapons inspector to Iraq, says that IAEA found Bolton's claims on Syria "unsubstantiated".

War or words?
Israel appeared to be trying to defuse tensions with Syria this week, with Olmert saying he was ready to start unconditional peace talks with Damascus. The two countries have been in dispute since Israel occupied the Golan Heights in the 1967 Six Day War.

Syria's state-run daily Tishreen was quick to respond: "What is new in Olmert's proposals is the respectful tone, but the rest is only a repetition of old proposals aiming to trick and divide."

Olmert made a similar offer during an interview with the Saudi satellite TV channel Al-Arabiyya on July 11. "I am ready to sit with you and talk about peace, not war. I will be happy if I could make peace with Syria. I do not want to wage war against Syria," Olmert said.

This proposal was echoed by President Shimon Peres on September 18, who added, "We are ready for dialogue with Damascus."

In the wake of the air incursion, Israel also transferred troops from the Golan Heights to the Negev to defuse rising tensions on the border. Damascus had been told this would happen.

Hours before the Israeli planes crossed the Syrian border, Javier Solana, the European Union's foreign-policy chief, delivered a message from Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak that troop deployment on the border with Syria would be reduced to prevent an outbreak of war, insisting that his country was not interested in war with the Syrians.

If this is the case, it does not help explain just what the Israeli planes were doing over Syria.

Sami Moubayed is a Syrian political analyst.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/II22Ak06.html

 

[African Herbsman]

A preemptive strike or a provacation that will lead to the eventual war with Iran?

 

[QueEx]

Who knows; could be. But go back to the Ahmadinejad thread and point out where I said that Ahmadinejad made the "wipe Israel off the map" statement.

QueEx

 

[QueEx]

Condoleezza Rice opposed Israel’s
attack on Syrian nuclear site​

​

Sunday Times (London)
Sarah Baxter
October 7, 2007

A MYSTERIOUS Israeli military strike on a suspected nuclear site in Syria last month was opposed by Condoleezza Rice, the American secretary of state, because she feared it would destabilise the region, according to a report this weekend.

Rice persuaded the Israelis to delay their operation, but not to call it off, after US officials were presented with “jaw-dropping” evidence of Syrian nuclear activity, the report said.

The Sunday Times revealed two weeks ago that Israeli commandos had seized samples of nuclear material, said to be of North Korean origin, during a daring raid on a Syrian military facility to prove to the Americans that an air attack was essential.

According to ABC News, Rice led the opposition inside the Bush administration to the Israeli strike, persuading them to shelve initial plans to hit the Syrian facility in the week of July 14.

The nuclear samples seized by ground commandos remain unidentified, but defence and intelligence sources in Washington believe they may have been connected to uranium enrichment.

Ilan Berman, a Middle East expert at the American Foreign Policy Council, said: “The consensus is that Israel struck a nuclear facility and the probability is that it was linked to enriching uranium.”

One report claimed the Syrian plant may have been intended to produce plutonium, but some experts doubt that, saying it would require the presence of a reactor.

The North Koreans have acknowledged producing plutonium at their plant at Yongbyon but have been evasive about a possible uranium enrichment programme, said to have begun with aid from a network overseen by Abdul Qadeer Khan, the so-called father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb.

The US state department is sending a team of experts to North Korea on Tuesday to begin disabling the Yongbyon reactor, as agreed during six-nation talks last week. Sean McCor-mack, the State Department spokesman, said the reactor should be disabled by the end of the year.

President George W Bush said North Korea had committed “not to transfer nuclear materials, technology or know-how beyond its borders” and that it would make a complete declaration of all its nuclear programmes and proliferation activity. He authorised the release of $25m in aid to the North Koreans, covering the cost of nearly 50,000 tons of fuel.

Concern remains, however, over the existence of a possible secret North Korean uranium enrichment programme. Christopher Hill, the State Department’s chief negotiator, said it was important to have a “complete resolution” of the issue. “If it turns out they (the North Koreans) have a uranium enrichment facility, it will have to be disabled,” Hill said.

According to US intelligence, Syria is believed to have received centri-fuges for producing enriched uranium from the Khan network several years ago, prompting the CIA to report to Congress in 2004 that it viewed “Syrian nuclear intentions with growing concern”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2604125.ece

 

[MCP]

Any country in the world has the right to defend its airspace when violated by enemy jets.

 

[QueEx]

Any country in the world has the right to defend its airspace when violated by enemy jets.

But; whats your point ???

QueEx

 

[BigUnc]

Lots of cloak and dagger shit going on.hmmmm did Israel attack something?? or low level fly overs???...maybe the Syrians air defense system was spoofed and they fired on ghost images on their radar screens??

Everyone is approaching these reports in odd ways. Israel is acting friendly towards Syria. Syria is feigning indignation. Iran is generally quiet. The U.S. appears to have some kind of internal dispute going on between hawkish right-wingers(Rice) and those even farther to the right than her (Cheney,Bolton)

Trolling around the web I'm sensing more players are making moves. China, Russia, Europe probably. Can't put my finger on who it is and how they're influencing events yet.

I'm getting more concerned that the Bush/Cheney regime will attack before the elections after reading the Hersch (sp.) article. I can't decide if his sources deliberately planted this story to put pressure on Iran or really know Bush wants to attack and leaked national security secrets in an effort to stop an attack.

If the main stream media begin airing alot of stories about Iran's revolutionary gaurds and a supposed connection to terrorist I'll take that as a sign the decision has been made and it's just a matter of time before the bombs start falling.

 

[QueEx]

Questions, questions, questions. I like em. Means reasonable minds are thinking.
I don't know any of the answers. But the questions are intriquing.

QueEx

 

[GET YOU HOT]

But; whats your point ???

QueEx

It means, they have every right to fire on military planes entering their airspace...

If Syria decided to retaliate by initiating an attack on Israel, they, would have dropped the hammer, and it would have been all out war. Iran, would choose join in, all out war, refreshed, stay tuned...

 

[MCP]

It means, they have every right to fire on military planes entering their airspace...

If Syria decided to retaliate by initiating an attack on Israel, they, would have dropped the hammer, and it would have been all out war. Iran, would choose join in, all out war, refreshed, stay tuned...

Exactly

 

[QueEx]

GYH
MCP,

Oh I don't have any doubt that one country has the right, no, the duty, to fire upon or otherwise fend-off military planes of another nation that enters its airspace. But, does one nation have the right/duty to act preemptively to secure its airspace from another?

QueEx

 

[MCP]

GYH
MCP,

Oh I don't have any doubt that one country has the right, no, the duty, to fire upon or otherwise fend-off military planes of another nation that enters its airspace. But, does one nation have the right/duty to act preemptively to secure its airspace from another?

QueEx

To your question no one nation has the 'right' of entering another nation's airspace just to secure its own airspace.

If for example the syrians shot down the israeli airplane that entered its airspace, the threat of war escalating in the middle east would have increased tenfold. The syrians on one hand would have been within their right to defend its airspace from hostile invaders.

I wonder what would have happened if the shoe was on the other foot if syrians fighter jets had entered israeli airspace??

 

[QueEx]

To your question no one nation has the 'right' of entering another nation's airspace just to secure its own airspace.

So, if your neighbor is stacking bricks next to the fence between your and his property; you and your neighbor have never gotten along; the bricks would be lethal to you family inside of your house if your neighbor starts lobbing them across the fence; and you have a brick (lets just call it the "anti-brick" brick) that, if you tossed it over the fence, would knock out your neighbors lethal bricks - - you don't have a right to do that?

I wonder what would have happened if the shoe was on the other foot if syrians fighter jets had entered israeli airspace??

You've presumed that I was, necessarily, defending Israel. My question really went to the scenario I painted, just above. In other words, preemption, whether its Syria, Israel or the mythical country of MCP.

QueEx

 

[QueEx]

P.S.

You also 'assumed' that I somehow meant that Syria would have been wrong had it shot down the Israeli aircraft. I did not.

QueEx

 

[MCP]

In relation to your answers I really should've stated that I was using these two countries recent actions into perspective.

Also I didn't presume that you were defending israel's action here. Thought I should just clarify that.

 

[QueEx]

OK. What about it philosophically then?

 

[wedrinkandscrew]

a QueEx,where do you think iraq will play into all this tension between Isreal and the rest of the middle east?

 

[GET YOU HOT]

So, if your neighbor is stacking bricks next to the fence between your and his property; you and your neighbor have never gotten along; the bricks would be lethal to you family inside of your house if your neighbor starts lobbing them across the fence; and you have a brick (lets just call it the "anti-brick" brick) that, if you tossed it over the fence, would knock out your neighbors lethal bricks - - you don't have a right to do that?


You've presumed that I was, necessarily, defending Israel. My question really went to the scenario I painted, just above. In other words, preemption, whether its Syria, Israel or the mythical country of MCP.

QueEx

Sometimes, there is an obvious build-up, preemptive type strike, call it a test run, over a benign(sp) enemy such as Syria, real life, Iran. It will happen, mind you, it's a matter of time...

 

[QueEx]

Syria Tells Journalists Israeli Raid Did Not Occur​

New York Times
By HUGH NAYLOR
Published: October 11, 2007

DEIR EZ ZOR, Syria, Oct. 9 — Foreign journalists perused the rows of corn and the groves of date palms pregnant with low-hanging fruit here this week, while agents of Syria’s ever present security services stood in the background, watching closely, almost nervously.

“You see — around us are farmers, corn, produce, nothing else,” said Ahmed Mehdi, the Deir ez Zor director of the Arab Center for the Studies of Arid Zones and Dry Lands, a government agricultural research center, as he led two of the journalists around the facilities.

It was here at this research center in this sleepy Bedouin city in eastern Syria that an Israeli journalist reported that Israel had conducted an air raid in early September.

Ron Ben-Yishai, a writer for the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot, grabbed headlines when he suggested that the government facility here was attacked during the raid, snapping photos of himself for his article in front of a sign for the agricultural center.

He said he was denied access to the research center, which sits on the outskirts of the city, and he did not show any photos of the aftermath of the raid, though he said he saw some pits that looked like part of a mine or quarry, implying that they could also be sites where bombs fell.

His claims have compelled the Syrian government, already anxious over the rising tensions with Israel and the United States, to try to vindicate itself after a recent flurry of news reports that it may have ambitions to acquire nuclear weapons.

President Bashar al-Assad, in a BBC interview, played down the Israeli raid, saying that Israeli jets took aim at empty military buildings, but he did not give a specific location. His statement differed from the initial Syrian claim that it had repulsed the air raid before an attack occurred.

Israel has been unusually quiet about the attack on Sept. 6 and has effectively imposed a news blackout about it. Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli opposition leader, on Sept. 19 became the first public figure in Israel to acknowledge that an attack had even taken place. Some Israeli officials have said, though not publicly, that the raid hit a nuclear-related facility that North Korea was helping to equip, but they have not specified where.

On Monday, journalists toured the agricultural center at the government’s invitation to prove, Mr. Mehdi said, that no nuclear weapons program or Israeli attacks occurred there. “The allegations are completely groundless, and I don’t really understand where all this W.M.D. talk came from,” Mr. Mehdi said, referring to weapons of mass destruction.

“There was no raid here — we heard nothing,“ he added.

An entourage of the center’s employees lined up with him to greet the journalists. In a seemingly choreographed display, they nodded in agreement and offered their guests recently picked dates as tokens of hospitality.

They showed off a drab-colored laboratory that they said was used to conduct experiments on drought-resistant crops and recently plowed fields where vegetables and fruits are grown.

Mr. Ben-Yishai’s news report rattled Syrians for another reason: he apparently was able to slip into Syria, which bars Israelis from entering, and travel throughout the country.

“I think he came in on a European passport,” said Ghazi Bilto, who said he was a graphic designer for the agricultural center.

Burhan Okko, who also said he was a graphic designer for the center, interrupted, saying, “It was definitely on a German passport.” The international news media have speculated that the Israeli attack was aimed at a Syrian effort to acquire nuclear weapons materials, possibly with the aid of North Korea. Syria rejects these claims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/w...em&ex=1192334400&en=abae00565794a5eb&ei=5087

 

[QueEx]

BigUnc,

The article above seems to add more questions to your questions list . . . lol

QueEx

 

[balls]

Seems more like Isreali jets flew into Syrian air space dropped a few ordanances and Syria returned fire. Funny how, when in stories involving Isreal the leads are often phrased to make Isreal the victim.

Hear we go again!
These issues are far more complex than just assuming the world is 'black and white' with one side being right and the other wrong. We can never get to the bottom of things until all sides in conflicts are willing to work toward the common good for ALL.
This is a lesson our own administration has not heeded.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
....ghandi

 

[BigUnc]

BigUnc,

The article above seems to add more questions to your questions list . . . lol

QueEx

Yes it does. Somethings going on, keeping my eye on Lebanon. I believe whatever happened over the skies of Syria was really directed towards Iran. If Iran responds it will be through it's surrogates in Lebanon. Been offline a few days so I've got some catching up to do.

 

[QueEx]

06 September 2007 Airstrike

A N A L Y S I S

Syria said its air defences reportedly opened fire on Israeli warplanes flying over the northeast of the country in the early hours of Thursday 06 September 2007. Very few facts are known about the alleged incident. Local residents were reported to have claimed to have heard the sound of five or more planes above the Tal al-Abiad area on Syria's border with Turkey, around 160 km (100 miles) north of the Syrian city of Rakka. One Syrian official was quoted by Reuters on 07 September 2007 as saying: "They dropped bombs on an empty area while our air defenses were firing heavily at them."

The Syrian official news agency SANA stated that Israeli aircraft had "infiltrated Syrian airspace through the northern border coming from the direction of the Mediterranean and headed towards northeastern territory, breaking the sound barrier. ... The Syrian Arab Republic warns the government of the Israeli enemy and reserves the right to respond according to what it sees fit..." Syria warned that it was weighing its response to the Israeli "aggression". Syrian Information Minister Mohsen Bilal told Al-Jazeera television that his country was "giving serious consideration to its response... to this aggression ... This shows that Israel cannot give up aggression and treachery".

On 08 September 2007 Turkey asked Israel for clarification after finding two fuel tanks on its territory near the Syrian border allegedly belonging to Israeli warplanes. The jettisoned fuel tanks were discovered late on Thursday 06 September 2007 in the Turkish provinces of Hatay and Gaziantep, near the Syrian border. This came a few hours after Damascus had accused Israel of bombing its territory.

The Israeli government and military initially remained silent about the incident. The Israeli military spokesman's office said in a statement: "It is not our custom to respond to these kinds of reports." But the office typically has commented on such reports. In October 2003 Israeli warplanes bombed an empty Palestinian militant training camp in Syria. And in June 2006, Israeli warplanes flew over a palace in northern Syria while President Bashar al-Assad was inside, in what Damascus condemned as an "act of piracy". These operations were confirmed by the Israeli military. It appeared the government imposed a news blackout on the issue. A spokeswoman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated that there would be no comment beyond the military statement.

Analysts were initially divided over whether the [unconfirmed] flight was a tactic of intimidation, or a reconnaissance mission of some sort, or operation intending to test Syrian air defense systems. Other hypotheses have posited that Israel was on an intelligence-gathering mission, scouting an air corridor for a future strike against Iran's nuclear facilities.

On 10 September 2007 a [background source] started pitching a story that the air strike had destroyed a uranium pilot enrichment plant that Syria had obtained from North Korea. As far as can be detected, this story did not have legs at that time and no news organization moved it. Michael Corleone [From the Godfather] observed: "it insults my intelligence -- and makes me very angry."

On 11 September 2007 a US government official confirmed [on background] that Israeli warplanes were targeting weapons from Iran and destined for Hizballah militants in Lebanon. On 12 September 2007 Mark Mazzetti and Helene Cooper in The New York Times reported that "Officials in Washington said that the most likely targets of the raid were weapons caches that Israel’s government believes Iran has been sending the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah through Syria. Iran and Syria are Hezbollah’s primary benefactors, and American intelligence officials say a steady flow of munitions from Iran runs through Syria and into Lebanon."

On 13 September 2007 Glenn Kessler reported in the Washington Post that " ... a former Israeli official said he had been told that it was an attack against a facility capable of making unconventional weapons."

On 15 September 2007 Glenn Kessler reported in the Washington Post that American sources said that Israel had recently provided the US with evidence -- code named "Orchard" -- that the DPRK had been cooperating with Syria on a nuclear facility. "The evidence, said to come primarily from Israel, includes dramatic satellite imagery ... The new information, particularly images received in the past 30 days, has been restricted to a few senior officials ... " According to one source for this report, the 06 September 2007 air strike appeared to have been linked to the arrival at the Syrian port of Tartus on 03 September 2007 [three days prior to the strike], of a ship carrying material ["labeled as cement"] from North Korea. According to this source, the target of the attack was a Syrian facility "agricultural research center" located "on the Euphrates River, close to the Turkish border". Israel had reportedly been monitoring the facility in the belief that Syria was "using it to extract uranium from phosphates" at that location.

• 
  "dramatic satellite imagery" - the types of activity associated with nuclear weapons development, particularly at the early stages of the program, are precisely the sorts of things that are not going to produce dramatic satellite imagery, which is why North Korea's uranium program is so vexing for the United States.

• "primarily from Israel" - the reliance on such liasion sourced intelligence that could not be independently verified was one of the central problems with the Iraq WMD intelligence failure, and either evidence is "primarily from Israel" [ie, HUMINT] or it is independtly knowable by the United States based on "dramatic satellite imagery" but it is difficult to comprehend how both statements could be true.

• "restricted to a few senior officials" - this part of the story is designed to explain to other reporters why their sources are unable to confirm any of the details of this report

• "arrival at the Syrian port of Tartus" - this is not a large facility, and this news story would have us believe that Israeli intelligence has intimate knowledge of unloading activities at this port, a collection capability that was willingly compromised here

• "labeled as cement" -- cement is normally transported as a bulk powder, and less frequently in recent decades in bags -- neither form of transport would usefully conceal nuclear related components, and labeling some other means of transport [eg, standard 40-foot containters] [1] as cement would be so patently false as to immediately draw suspicion to the shipment.

• "on the Euphrates River, close to the Turkish border" -- the implication, though not over assertion, is that over the course of three days Israeli intelligence was able to track the shipment as it travelled half-way across Syria, or that Israeli surveillance of Syria is so comprehensive that the shipment was detected upon arrival -- either of which is very impressive and hard to believe.

• "using it to extract uranium from phosphates" - Syria has a phosphate industry, which supports the production of fertilizer and phosphoric acid. Between 1996 and 2001 Syria operated a pilot plant at Homs [2] for the purification of phosphoric acid, in order to remove the uranium contanmination so that the phosphoric acid could be used for food processing. This project was financed by the UN Developement Program, supported by the IAEA, and not bombed by Israel.

On 16 September 2007 the UK newspaper The Observer reported that Israel's strike against Syria involved as many as eight aircraft, including F-15s and F-16s equipped with Maverick missiles and 500 pound bombs, along with an electronic intelligence gathering aircraft. On 16 September 2007 the Sunday Times reported that an IAF commando team arrived on the ground several days before the attack to direct laser beams at the target for the jets.

On 16 September 2007 the Sunday Times quoted an Israeli source as saying that Syria had been planning a "devastating surprise" for Israel, in the wake of reports that the Israel Air Force carried out an air strike against a North Korean nuclear shipment to Syria. The paper reported that Israeli sources said planning for the strike began in late spring 2007 when Mossad director Meir Dagan presented Prime Minister Ehud Olmert with evidence that Syria was seeking to buy a nuclear weapon from North Korea. This news account implies but never actually asserts that the target of the Israeli attack was in fact a North Korean nuclear weapon.

On 16 September 2007 former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton said "it will be very unusual for Israel to conduct such a military operation inside Syria other (than) for a very high value target and certainly a Syrian effort in nuclear weapon area will qualify. ... I think this is a clear message not only to Syria, this is a clear message to Iran as well that its continued efforts to acquire nuclear weapons are not going to go unanswered..." Bolton never claims direct knowledge of the facts of the matter, only that a strike against Syrian nuclear capabilities would be in the interest of Israel.

On 16 September 2007 it was reported by AFP that military intelligence chief Amos Yadlin told parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee that Israel had recovered its "deterrent capability" after the air strike in Syria. "The new situation affects the entire region, including Iran and Syria," local media reported. But Tzachi Hanegbi, chairman of the parliamentary committee, told reporters he instructed the military intelligence chief to avoid any mention of Syria at a committee meeting. And Yadlin's statement to the meeting, "Israel's deterrence has been rehabilitated since the Lebanon war, and it affects the entire regional system, including Iran and Syria ..." seems to have far more to do with an assessment of the July 2006 Op Change of Direction [3] than it did to striking purported Syrian nuclear capabilities.

When the Yediot Aharonot poll asked Israeli Jews "According to foreign media reports, Israel attacked nuclear targets in Syria. Do you support or oppose this action?". 78% supported it, only 10% were opposed. (The rest gave no opinion.)

By 20 September 2007 the Washington Post editorialized "Media accounts are beginning to converge on a report that Israel bombed a facility where it believed Syria was attempting to hatch its own nuclear weapons program with North Korea's assistance. ... is beginning to look as if Israel may have carried out the boldest act of nuclear preemption since its own 1981 raid against Iraq's Osirak nuclear complex. If so, its silence is shrewd. It has allowed Syria to avoid a military response ... The non-news has boosted the previously rock-bottom poll numbers of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. "

Writing in the Washington Post on October 7, 2007, Jim Hoagland reported that " ... highly classified U.S. intelligence reports say that the Israelis destroyed a nuclear-related facility and caused North Korean casualties at the site, which may have been intended to produce plutonium, according to a senior official with access to those reports. The Israelis have provided the United States with photographs, physical material and soil samples from the site -- taken both before and after the raid -- according to two independent sources."

Writing in the Washington Post on October 7, 2007, David Ignatius reported that an "informed official" had told him that ".... Israel's Sept. 6 strike against a target in Syria ... was an attack on nuclear materials supplied to Syria by North Korea, and that the United States and Israel had shared information before the raid ... the message to Iran is clear: America and Israel can identify nuclear targets and penetrate air defenses to destroy them."

On 10 October 2007 Syria took journalists on a tour of the site at Dayr az Zawr, Syria [4] that Israel had allegedly bombed. The New York Times reported the visit on 11 October 2007, stating that there was no evidence of either a nuclear program or an Israeli air strike at the facility. Ron Ben-Yishai, a reporter for the daily Yediot Acharonot had visited the site some days previously, and reported that the government facility here was the one attacked during the raid. The Arab Center for the Studies of Arid Zones and Dry Lands is a government agricultural research center at Deir ez Zor in eastern Syria.

_____________
Footnotes:

[1] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/container.htm

[2] http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/syria/homs.htm

[3] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/lebanon-change-of-direction.htm

[4] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/dayr-az-zawr.htm
____________

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/070906-airstrike.htm

 

[QueEx]

Syria's Nuclear Program:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/syria/nuke.htm

Claims against Syria are pure bullsh*t."
By Trish Schuh, Written for 'Syria Comment' 9-20-7
http://www.rense.com/general78/smok.htm

Extracting Uranium from Phosphates
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1645/extracting-uranium-from-phosphates

Rattling the Cage: The censor in our heads
By LARRY DERFNER Sep 19, 2007
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1189411441623&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

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