Hillary Clinton vs Bernie Sanders (2020)
- Thread starter Soul On Ice
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Just sharing for relevance
What is something that needs to be said?
Elizabeth Grey, Writes About Politics (2016-present)
We have got to stop celebrating ignorance.
I used to study acting with the late, great William Hickey.
P
You might have seen him in Prizzi’s Honor as Don Corrado (he was nominated for an Academy Award).
Or as Uncle Lewis in National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation.
When Bill would critique a scene in class, he’d tell a story, or parable, about a situation in life to bring the actor closer to what was really going on in the scene.
He was full of fascinating stories.
He told one once that has stuck with me since. I don’t remember the scene, but I’ve never forgotten the story. It’s definitely hearsay; whether it happened word for word I can’t know. But I do love the point.
When Bella Abzug was campaigning for Congress, she went down to Little Italy in NYC to give a stump speech.
While she was speaking, she started to get heckled. Some men in the neighborhood were yelling at her that she should shut up, and she was a “fat Jew”.
She finally stopped and said this:
You know what, you’re right. I am fat and I am a Jew. But when I get to Congress I’m going to take care of you. Because you are too dumb to do it yourselves.
And then, the men started cheering her.
My favorite part of this is that she got them on her side. They cheered her for telling the truth.
They also were smart enough to know that Bella knew more about how to take care of them than they did.
There’s no way for all of us to know everything about everything. But somehow, we live in a society where all opinion is treated equally.
I find that nuts.
I don’t know the exact moment we turned a corner in our country, but through the years we’ve gone from that story, to somehow believing that equality means all opinions are equal.
They are not.
And instead of doing what Bella did—telling her constituents the truth—politicians placate the ignorant. They try to trick us into thinking our idiotic opinions, with absolutely no basis in fact, matter as much as well researched, evidence based ones.
In a country of this size, we are never all going to agree. What politicians have capitalized on is turning us against each other.
In the past, the other side meant another country; an enemy of democracy. Now, those words refer to opposing political parties in the United States.
Politicians aren’t taking care of us; they are taking care of themselves. Because the more divided its citizens, the more political capital our leaders have.
Many people believe that the free press—organizations that employ educated journalists who adhere to standard practices—is fake news. And, that people with uninformed opinions, or opinions poisoned by organizations with no journalistic standards, are just as valid as well researched ones.
They are not.
And while we are busy fighting amongst ourselves, some politicians are pushing agendas that keep themselves rich and powerful, at the ignorants’ expense.
We have got to start respecting education and ethical journalism again.
There are people who might be experts in their field. It doesn’t mean they’ve got enough expertise to lead the city, or the state, or the federal government.
The best example I can think of is the climate crisis. Global warming is affected by how we humans treat the environment. That is a fact. Here’s what NASA says about it.
Yet there are politicians who’d like you to believe that it’s the brainchild of “the elite”.
People need to start asking themselves why they are being placated by politicians. What’s in it for them, to tell you climate change isn’t real?
Now. Of course there are people who haven’t graduated high school that are more informed than someone with a college degree. Why? Because they read. Because they take responsibility for their own breadth of knowledge.
There are people with doctorates who refuse to educate themselves; who only read from one or two sources, and choose those based on their own opinion.
And there are people who are experts in their field.
I am not a scientist. What I think might be causing global warming is irrelevant.
My point is this: opinion is not fact. If someone is telling you something, it’s important to get their source. From where does their statement originate?
The most important work I did on this issue started in 2016. I was hearing info about my preferred candidate that was alarming. I wanted to find the truth.
I started reading about the issue. And then I took the time to investigate the sources. If I read an article, I’d research whether or not the organization had a partisan slant. I used a variety of sources, and I knew which ones were trying to convince me for their own reasons.
It was painstaking work.
However, because I took the time, I could establish that what I had heard—repeatedly—was a lie. My candidate was getting smeared by organizations with their own agendas.
I could then make an informed decision.
Ignorance isn’t something to celebrate. I wish we would take greater responsibility for our opinions.
Because compromising based on facts is hard enough.
Compromising when facts and innuendo and bad journalism and uninformed opinion are at play is impossible.
EDIT: Huge oops. I left out our lived experience.
I can never tell you what it’s like to be a person of color living in this country. My opinion? Who cares. I get educated by listening, not opining.
Likewise: Men cannot tell me how I should live and breathe as a woman in this nation. They’d be advised to listen to the women in their lives for that information.
This is something that needs its own essay, but didn’t want to leave it out. EG
What is something that needs to be said?
Elizabeth Grey, Writes About Politics (2016-present)
We have got to stop celebrating ignorance.
I used to study acting with the late, great William Hickey.
P
You might have seen him in Prizzi’s Honor as Don Corrado (he was nominated for an Academy Award).
Or as Uncle Lewis in National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation.
When Bill would critique a scene in class, he’d tell a story, or parable, about a situation in life to bring the actor closer to what was really going on in the scene.
He was full of fascinating stories.
He told one once that has stuck with me since. I don’t remember the scene, but I’ve never forgotten the story. It’s definitely hearsay; whether it happened word for word I can’t know. But I do love the point.
When Bella Abzug was campaigning for Congress, she went down to Little Italy in NYC to give a stump speech.
While she was speaking, she started to get heckled. Some men in the neighborhood were yelling at her that she should shut up, and she was a “fat Jew”.
She finally stopped and said this:
You know what, you’re right. I am fat and I am a Jew. But when I get to Congress I’m going to take care of you. Because you are too dumb to do it yourselves.
And then, the men started cheering her.
My favorite part of this is that she got them on her side. They cheered her for telling the truth.
They also were smart enough to know that Bella knew more about how to take care of them than they did.
There’s no way for all of us to know everything about everything. But somehow, we live in a society where all opinion is treated equally.
I find that nuts.
I don’t know the exact moment we turned a corner in our country, but through the years we’ve gone from that story, to somehow believing that equality means all opinions are equal.
They are not.
And instead of doing what Bella did—telling her constituents the truth—politicians placate the ignorant. They try to trick us into thinking our idiotic opinions, with absolutely no basis in fact, matter as much as well researched, evidence based ones.
In a country of this size, we are never all going to agree. What politicians have capitalized on is turning us against each other.
In the past, the other side meant another country; an enemy of democracy. Now, those words refer to opposing political parties in the United States.
Politicians aren’t taking care of us; they are taking care of themselves. Because the more divided its citizens, the more political capital our leaders have.
Many people believe that the free press—organizations that employ educated journalists who adhere to standard practices—is fake news. And, that people with uninformed opinions, or opinions poisoned by organizations with no journalistic standards, are just as valid as well researched ones.
They are not.
And while we are busy fighting amongst ourselves, some politicians are pushing agendas that keep themselves rich and powerful, at the ignorants’ expense.
We have got to start respecting education and ethical journalism again.
There are people who might be experts in their field. It doesn’t mean they’ve got enough expertise to lead the city, or the state, or the federal government.
The best example I can think of is the climate crisis. Global warming is affected by how we humans treat the environment. That is a fact. Here’s what NASA says about it.
|
Yet there are politicians who’d like you to believe that it’s the brainchild of “the elite”.
People need to start asking themselves why they are being placated by politicians. What’s in it for them, to tell you climate change isn’t real?
Now. Of course there are people who haven’t graduated high school that are more informed than someone with a college degree. Why? Because they read. Because they take responsibility for their own breadth of knowledge.
There are people with doctorates who refuse to educate themselves; who only read from one or two sources, and choose those based on their own opinion.
And there are people who are experts in their field.
I am not a scientist. What I think might be causing global warming is irrelevant.
My point is this: opinion is not fact. If someone is telling you something, it’s important to get their source. From where does their statement originate?
The most important work I did on this issue started in 2016. I was hearing info about my preferred candidate that was alarming. I wanted to find the truth.
I started reading about the issue. And then I took the time to investigate the sources. If I read an article, I’d research whether or not the organization had a partisan slant. I used a variety of sources, and I knew which ones were trying to convince me for their own reasons.
It was painstaking work.
However, because I took the time, I could establish that what I had heard—repeatedly—was a lie. My candidate was getting smeared by organizations with their own agendas.
I could then make an informed decision.
Ignorance isn’t something to celebrate. I wish we would take greater responsibility for our opinions.
Because compromising based on facts is hard enough.
Compromising when facts and innuendo and bad journalism and uninformed opinion are at play is impossible.
EDIT: Huge oops. I left out our lived experience.
I can never tell you what it’s like to be a person of color living in this country. My opinion? Who cares. I get educated by listening, not opining.
Likewise: Men cannot tell me how I should live and breathe as a woman in this nation. They’d be advised to listen to the women in their lives for that information.
This is something that needs its own essay, but didn’t want to leave it out. EG
That may be one reason but the other reason is Bernie waited weeks to somewhat endorse her.
Spin? With facts?
Even if I concede that Bernie wasn’t excited about endorsing Hillary, what happened to actions speak louder than words? His actions were a stronger endorsement that he wanted HRC to beat Trump than anything he could have said. Again, THE MAN CAMPAIGNED HARDER FOR HER THAN SHE DID FOR HERSELF.Are you genuinely in full throated acceptance of the false narrative that Bernie hurt Hillary, even in the face of facts? You can’t be THIS moronic.
Also, did you not see that I pre-empted your next run of the mill, predictable excuse for Hillary’s loss in my last post? Tell you what. Google Hillary Clinton and search images. The person you see looking back at you is the only legitimate reason why she lost in 2016. Not racism, not sexism, not Republicans, not Russia, and damn sure not Bernie Sanders.
HRC didn’t inspire people, care about people, or even make sure not to neglect potential voters. She hobnobbed with the elites at fundraisers and closed door parties, drinking her own kool-aid and believing the polls that said she had a 90% chance of becoming president.
Hillary Clinton is a failure when it comes to Presidential Elections. Ever the popular vote getter (she “beat” Trump, Bernie, and Obama in number of votes), she has yet to actually win a Presidential election. The only candidate worse than her is Joe Biden, a man on his third Presidential race, that has (to this point in time) never won a single solitary delegate.
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Moronic..? more like I am not blind, deaf, or dumb.
If there was a bitter primary and when that contest ends and you allow that bitterness to stew for weeks. That does not bold well with having people heal. That's just a fact.
That's like waiting to squash a street beef for weeks and then coming out to half ass say you want it to stop. Well a lot of people are already invested in the beef.
So they aint stopping.
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Understandable. I’m simply stating that the actual facts do not support that this happened, in this particular instance. Most Bernie backers voted and they voted for Hillary. A small percentage voted 3rd party, and an even smaller percentage voted for Trump. An overwhelming majority of people decided to sit the entire election out because they were not excited about Trump or Clinton. Lowest voter turnout in 20 years.
Blaming Bernie is one of several excuses that HRC and Centrist Democrats use to avoid reflection on their mistakes and/or the ineffectiveness of their ideology. Reflection would require substantive changes that they are not willing to make.
Do you not understand that those margins made a big difference in Hillary losing and Trump winning?
Trump had won in 4 swing states (Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin) with less than 2% of the votes.
I did not say Bernie was the sole reason Hillary lost but a big reason/factor why Trump is president now.
A strong case has been made that Bernie pushed Hillary to the left and forced her to address or adopt issues that turned out the be the most popular in the nation. Imagine how badly Hillary would have been beaten without being forced to talk about the issues the working class care about.
Ther are many reasons that she lost. number 1 is that she was a hated establishment figure from the jump. There was nothing she could do about that but the next biggest reason is one that she had control over. She CHOSE Not to campaign in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. everything else might have been difficult obstacles but this unforced error buried her billion-dollar campaign.
Even Van jones peeped game
Van Jones, Clinton and the Democratic Blame Game
Democrats are stuck in the fall, pointing fingers while just hoping disgust with Trump translates to a 'wave election' in 2018.
www.newsweek.com
Blaming Bernie for their failers is just a way for those that ran the worst campaign in modern history to continue to make money consultng in politics
So let me get this straight. She rigged the voting booth?
Let me ask you a question. Which way of voting is more reliable?
Caucus voting or primary voting?
Brazile also walked back what she said
No, man, gotdamn! Listen to what I’m telling you. It’s proven that ads and funding heavily influences the voting booth. Hillary was given free reign to control where the DNC spent money because she paid off their debt and put them on an allowance. This NOT conjecture, it actually happened.
Brazile: Hillary Rigged DNC Against Bernie
The former DNC chair claimed Hillary Clinton's campaign reached an agreement with the DNC to take over the party's operations 15 months before last year's general election.
www.newsweek.com
Brazile, a former CNN contributor who was later dismissed after it was discovered she had forked over debate questions to Clinton's campaign, claimed when she took over as party chairwoman, the DNC was $24 million in debt. Clinton's campaign, according to Brazile, assumed that debt with its own fundraising.
"Hillary for America (the campaign) and the Hillary Victory Fund (its joint fundraising vehicle with the DNC) had taken care of 80 percent of the remaining debt in 2016, about $10 million, and had placed the party on an allowance," according to Brazile.”
That sounds great but it seems you want to dismiss her wins off as being rigged but what? Bernie Sander's win were legit..fair and square??No, man, gotdamn! Listen to what I’m telling you. It’s proven that ads and funding heavily influences the voting booth. Hillary was given free reign to control where the DNC spent money because she paid off their debt and put them on an allowance. This NOT conjecture, it actually happened.
Brazile: Hillary Rigged DNC Against Bernie
The former DNC chair claimed Hillary Clinton's campaign reached an agreement with the DNC to take over the party's operations 15 months before last year's general election.
Brazile, a former CNN contributor who was later dismissed after it was discovered she had forked over debate questions to Clinton's campaign, claimed when she took over as party chairwoman, the DNC was $24 million in debt. Clinton's campaign, according to Brazile, assumed that debt with its own fundraising.
"Hillary for America (the campaign) and the Hillary Victory Fund (its joint fundraising vehicle with the DNC) had taken care of 80 percent of the remaining debt in 2016, about $10 million, and had placed the party on an allowance," according to Brazile.”
"Overall, Sanders has tended to focus his criticisms of the Democratic primary process on aspects of the nomination race that have put his own campaign at a disadvantage. Examples include his critiques of the superdelegates system and closed primaries, which shut out the Independent voters whose support has benefited Sanders.
“Three million people in the state of New York who are Independents have lost their right to vote in the Democratic or Republican primary. That’s wrong,” he said in April.
The campaign has not had the same zeal for reforming other elements of the process that might also be described as undemocratic. That would include the caucus system, where it is generally more difficult for people to vote than primaries.
That’s not entirely surprising, of course. Caucuses reward highly motivated and ideologically devoted voters, a dynamic which has tended to favor Sanders. The campaign’s critiques aren’t illegitimate because they’re uneven, nor are they necessarily insincere. They just show that Sanders is a politician, and he wants to win."
No, man, gotdamn! Listen to what I’m telling you. It’s proven that ads and funding heavily influences the voting booth. Hillary was given free reign to control where the DNC spent money because she paid off their debt and put them on an allowance. This NOT conjecture, it actually happened.
Brazile: Hillary Rigged DNC Against Bernie
The former DNC chair claimed Hillary Clinton's campaign reached an agreement with the DNC to take over the party's operations 15 months before last year's general election.
Brazile, a former CNN contributor who was later dismissed after it was discovered she had forked over debate questions to Clinton's campaign, claimed when she took over as party chairwoman, the DNC was $24 million in debt. Clinton's campaign, according to Brazile, assumed that debt with its own fundraising.
"Hillary for America (the campaign) and the Hillary Victory Fund (its joint fundraising vehicle with the DNC) had taken care of 80 percent of the remaining debt in 2016, about $10 million, and had placed the party on an allowance," according to Brazile.”
How Bernie Sanders benefited from the party’s pro-Clinton bias
"Just as it’s hard to remember what a popular, dominant political force Clinton appeared to be in 2014, it’s hard to remember how much more marginal a figure Sanders was.
Back then, it was Elizabeth Warren who was thought the champion of the American left, the scourge of the banks, the enemy of the billionaires. Sanders was a gadfly senator with no major legislation to his name who idiosyncratically refused to officially join the Democratic Party.
Gallup didn’t even include him in its polls.
But freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. Sanders didn’t need anything from the Democratic Party or from Hillary Clinton. He wasn’t afraid of her ire or trying to win consideration for a Cabinet position.
He wanted his message heard, and the Democratic primary gave him a vehicle to make the world listen."
And then he got a gift. Clinton, in reality, didn’t just clear the Democratic field for herself — she cleared it for Sanders also. If he’d been running in a race that included Warren and Biden and Booker, it might have been a lot harder for his voice to break through.
But he was really just running against Clinton and O’Malley. He was the only candidate representing the party’s populist-liberal wing and, given O’Malley’s failure to ignite voters, also the only candidate who offered Clinton’s critics a chance to stop her coronation.
Clinton’s obvious and overwhelming support among party elites also gave Sanders a potent issue, particularly among Democratic voters who weren’t fans of the frontrunner.
Sanders’s whole message was that the powerful and connected were rigging the systems of wealth and influence against the powerless, and here, in the Democratic Party, was one more example."
I hesitate to wade into this as it tends to be really time consuming and unproductive, but for all your research, did you look into the actual irregularities of the 2016 primary?
Bernie faced the onslaught and smears they are trying to use now, only without the name recognition, and the grassroots army (it was just getting started as word got out about him).
On top of that there were Super Delegates already pledged to Clinton no matter what, meaning she had a delegate lead of several Hundred before a single vote was cast. Then there were literal places where hundreds of thousands were kicked off the voter rolls inexplicably or given provisional ballots that were never counted. New York being among the most prominent where 120,000 were kicked off the rolls. There were court cases and eventual legal ramifications for the NY election board in 2018 because of this.
Then there were other state elections where the exit polls were grossly disparate from the vote tallies. To the point where the DNC just scrapped exit polls altogether halfway through the primary. This is all in addition to many state rules already excluding Independents from voting in primaries (as another board member mentioned).
There were states that Bernie won the popular vote in, but Hillary still won the lion’s share of delegates from the state because of Super Delegates. Then they called the race for Hillary before California and a number of other delegate rich states even voted based upon the already pledged Super Delegates for these States. This is one of the reasons why California now votes much earlier in the Primary.
There was a federal court case against the DNC where they admitted to rigging, but argued that they had a right to preselect whoever they wanted as a private organization. The presiding Judge responded that they were a quasi-public entity operating under the expectation of impartiality, but ruled that they hadn’t broken a particular federal law, and dismissed the case for lack of Jurisdiction in 2017.
All this to say that the DNC definitely cheated against Bernie, and they are cheating against him now. However with the electoral irregularities they actually stole the 2016 primary. I’m honestly hoping that it is impossible for any of those regularities to be repeated in 2020. I can handle the cheating, as I think that Bernie’s coalition and name recognition are too powerful to be affected by that, but if they start that stealing shit again and are able to get away with it, I and millions of others are going to lose our shit and go apeshit.
Damn. With all the skeletons that keep coming out the closet on these candidates, democrats only have themselves to blame if black voter turnout is low. Had 4 years to find new candidates. 
Black folk are the democratic party. Btw Sanders isn't even a democrat.Damn. With all the skeletons that keep coming out the closet on these candidates, democrats only have themselves to blame if black voter turnout is low. Had 4 years to find new candidates.
The banks..the banks'
I admire those bankers that handed out subprime loans to black folk.
Oh did I tell you I walked with King?
What Sanders not being a democrat got to do with anything? 
These clowns have bitched 
"Russia" for years and didn't groom any serious candidates so Bernie back at the table eating. Plus not one has the balls to sit Hillary down and tell her to get low. Like I said, self-inflicted.
These clowns have bitched "Russia" for years and didn't groom any serious candidates so Bernie back at the table eating. Plus not one has the balls to sit Hillary down and tell her to get low. Like I said, self-inflicted.
I don't disagree with you. Just stating a fact that Bernie is not a democrat but an independent running on the democratic platform.What Sanders not being a democrat got to do with anything?
So the democrats did not choose him. The truth is it doesn't matter who you come up with. What matters the most (and republicans know this) is who can get (base energized and)out the vote. The democratic base and the party is a big tent and it's disjointed between the liberal, progressive, moderates, conservatives, blue dogs, young, old, black, white, etc....
The republican party/base is just basely white people and "conservatives". Advantage republicans.
It's just a mess. Sad shit.
One of the real advantages republicans is that republican shit is being dug up on the candidates for the democrat nomination. Trump will have a field day with all the receipts coming out.
Meanwhile, Trump acting like a lifelong democrat prior to Obama means nothing to his side anymore. The republicans that called him out in 2016 have fell in line.
In the end all republicans care about is winning and turning their agendas into reality.. While democrats care about being right and righteous. Thus not turning much of their agenda into a realityIt's just a mess. Sad shit.
One of the real advantages republicans is that republican shit is being dug up on the candidates for the democrat nomination. Trump will have a field day with all the receipts coming out.
Go back to fall of 2016. Had hardcore republicans like
about Trump. This was the time when fools thought that fat white guy Bannon was president. Shit was chaos. When they realized Trump was going to need their protection with this Russia shit, they joined him to milk him for every fucking thing they want. He then needed protection with the impeachment. Basically, Trump couldn't say no to much. Things will be interesting after this impeachment. There was a reason Mitch, Ryan, Bush, Cruz, Kasich, and them weren't fucking with Trump.
This is an illegitimate smear, don’t drink the kool-aid. They took one single line out of context out of a piece where Bernie was discussing how the dictatorialship of Hitler was actually possible in the United States, and Wallace exhibited this. He was in many ways a precursor to Trump, (who this piece and other interviews that Sanders has done) might lead one to believe that Bernie predicted Trump.
Here’s just one example on how he felt about Wallace.
It’s really ridiculous that we have black trolls that are being paid to try and take down a candidate that legitimately wants to better life for all working class people, and particularly people of color. These fools will go on Corporate Media and Social Media, trying to smear Bernie all day long, while caping for a man that was literally Obama’s signal to white racists that it was ok to vote for him; who has lied for decades about being involved in the civil rights movement; fought against desegregated busing; idolized George McGovern; WROTE the Crime Bill; called us Predators (before Hillary); Actually stumped for and supported a Republican candidate over a Democrat in 2018; who has tried to cut Social Safety Net programs for decades, and lies about it, like there isn’t tons of video proof proving otherwise.
Seriously, FUCK a large section of the Black Bourgeoisie, that doesn’t give a fuck about the rest of us, as long as they’re doing well. Ole Come to do Good, Stay to do well, coon-skinned rat bastards. Talented Tenth my ass.
Also the original article that all these fools like Jason H. Johnson (who got me suspended from twitter one time for calling him a Coon) are supporting, was a misquote written by the Washington Examiner. This “reputable” source got so much backlash behind this that they had to amend and release the full quote. Of course there’s crickets about this part though.
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What is it you're looking for in a candidate, maybe we can help point you in the right direction..
Damn. With all the skeletons that keep coming out the closet on these candidates, democrats only have themselves to blame if black voter turnout is low. Had 4 years to find new candidates.
people posting on Sanders being a supporter of racist Democrats like it is a revelation but if he gets the democratic nominee the same posters claim they will still vote for him.
goes to show how trump has resorted grown men and women to immature, unreasonable, irrational people just like he is. Like i said, they are pro-white because all their actions imitate the caucasian / look to seek their approval.
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