So where are the anti-regulation/anti union now that another mine has exploded?

[Lamarr]

This was a non-union mine, as were all the other mines that have had disasters over the last several years, which is why I put the union in my original question.

I see. You & Thought gotta forgive me, I did mention that I been moving for the last week. I didn't know the mine was non-union

The previous administration spent a great deal of time cutting the funding from regulatory agencies and defanging legislation that would enforce rules on Massey and the other mining companies.

I would agree with this statement only so far, here' why: You have Jay Rockefellor & "Sheets" Byrd, 2 of the most-influential Senators on the Hill (both Dems) Do you really want me to believe they were impotent to what Dubya was doin? Mind you, 60-80% of their constituents were in the mining industry.

Yet you continue to rail against government enforcement as intrusion to private business's interest. I don't mind saying you sound ridiculous.

ok Thought, let's see who sounds ridiculous, Do you think the govt could've prevented this incident?

 

[QueEx]

 

[thoughtone]

I see. You & Thought gotta forgive me, I did mention that I been moving for the last week. I didn't know the mine was non-union



I would agree with this statement only so far, here' why: You have Jay Rockefellor & "Sheets" Byrd, 2 of the most-influential Senators on the Hill (both Dems) Do you really want me to believe they were impotent to what Dubya was doin? Mind you, 60-80% of their constituents were in the mining industry.



ok Thought, let's see who sounds ridiculous, Do you think the govt could've prevented this incident?

What do you mean by the "government"? You always pose these questions concerning government in such a general way. What do you mean? Creation of laws? Enforcement of regulations? What do you mean by the "government"? Be more specific and I will answer your question.

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[Lamarr]

What do you mean by the "government"? You always pose these questions concerning government in such a general way. What do you mean? Creation of laws? Enforcement of regulations? What do you mean by the "government"? Be more specific and I will answer your question.

If they had 1300 violations, Who issued them?

Once again, Are you telling me that "Sheets" Byrd & Rockefellor were completely impotent to the situation in their state?

 

[thoughtone]

If they had 1300 violations, Who issued them?

Once again, Are you telling me that "Sheets" Byrd & Rockefellor were completely impotent to the situation in their state?

You still haven't answered the question and you will further veer of topic. Your knowledge of government is laughable. What do you mean by "government"? Answer this and I will go on.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

If everytime I give you an example of a successful example of anarchy, you start nitpicking how it isn't this or isn't that... you are basically saying you do not accept any example of anarchy becase you only want to believe in government, FACTS BE DAMNED!

Instead of me giving examples, why don't you give an example of a successful society outside of anarchy?

But you didn't give me one, not one. You gave a self serving answer to fit in a very narrow definition that no one but you believes. You picked a "society" that relies on a government regulated and controlled power source to even exist.

The country we live in is the best example, with all it's flaws.

You keep trying to tell me what I believe and getting it wrong. I believe government has a place in protecting the minority from the majority and the have nots from the haves. But I believe an active, vocal citizenry is the check to governmental authority.

I see. You & Thought gotta forgive me, I did mention that I been moving for the last week. I didn't know the mine was non-union



I would agree with this statement only so far, here' why: You have Jay Rockefellor & "Sheets" Byrd, 2 of the most-influential Senators on the Hill (both Dems) Do you really want me to believe they were impotent to what Dubya was doin? Mind you, 60-80% of their constituents were in the mining industry.



ok Thought, let's see who sounds ridiculous, Do you think the govt could've prevented this incident?

I think the gov't could have forced Massey to prevent this accident. Mining is dangerous but many of the dangers can be mitigated if not outright eliminated if companies were forced to comply.
I'm not letting Rockefeller and Byrd (Sheets.) off the hook. I know Bush did a lot of this shit under Executive Orders but they (and this is a problem with Washington Democrats in general) didn't make so much as a peep. If Dems ran to the media talking about real dangers the way Republicans do talking about fake ones, they'd be a stronger party.

 

[Cruise]

But you didn't give me one, not one. You gave a self serving answer to fit in a very narrow definition that no one but you believes. You picked a "society" that relies on a government regulated and controlled power source to even exist.

The country we live in is the best example, with all it's flaws.

You keep trying to tell me what I believe and getting it wrong. I believe government has a place in protecting the minority from the majority and the have nots from the haves. But I believe an active, vocal citizenry is the check to governmental authority.

Let me play your game.

The United States is not an example of a successful society. There is massive unemployment, poverty, jail imprisonment, with a failing health care system.

The country is fighting two wars with the largest military budget in the world. Who is the country so afraid of that it needs so many soldiers and guns?

I do not accept the United States as a "successful" example of a country without anarchy.

So, I say to you... in your own words...

you didn't give me one, not one. You gave a self serving answer to fit in a very narrow definition that no one but you believes.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Are you insane? We have high unemployment compared to recent history but it's been much higher here and is much higher in many, many nations around the world. We have one of the highest standards of living in the world, second only to countries far more regulated than our own.
How a person who lives a comparably cushy life can then say the society/nation he lives in isn't successful is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard.

 

[Cruise]

Are you insane? We have high unemployment compared to recent history but it's been much higher here and is much higher in many, many nations around the world. We have one of the highest standards of living in the world, second only to countries far more regulated than our own.
How a person who lives a comparably cushy life can then say the society/nation he lives in isn't successful is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard.

You assume the ONLY way in the entire UNIVERSE that someone can have a "cushy" life is with this mockery of a government that exists.

I say it is the government that is standing in the way of the REAL PROSPERITY AND WEALTH we all should be seeing.

How you can say black people should be grateful for being police targets, subjects of mass incarcerations, forced to attend failing and deplorable schools, subject to massive discrimination in the housing market, and powerless in the face of a massive corporate and government bureaucracy is truly...

one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

You assume the ONLY way in the entire UNIVERSE that someone can have a "cushy" life is with this mockery of a government that exists.

I say it is the government that is standing in the way of the REAL PROSPERITY AND WEALTH we all should be seeing.

How you can say black people should be grateful for being police targets, subjects of mass incarcerations, forced to attend failing and deplorable schools, subject to massive discrimination in the housing market, and powerless in the face of a massive corporate and government bureaucracy is truly...

Who are you arguing with? I didn't say any of that. That's the mark of someone who is over their head in a conversation: when you argue phantom points and straw men instead of what was actually said.
You have a comparably cushy life to 95% of the world and none of it thanks to "anarchy".

 

[Cruise]

Who are you arguing? I didn't say any of that. That's the mark of someone who is over their head in a conversation: when you argue phantom points and straw men instead of what was actually said.
You have a comparably cushy life to 95% of the world and none of it thanks to "anarchy".

I don't think you know what anarchy is.

Propserity, creativity, innovation and invention, discovery, and learning are functions of anarchy.

Stagnation, waste, corruption, and destruction are functions of government.

Our "cushy" life comes from the anarchy in our society.
The poverty comes from the government in our society.

No society is completely run by a government... NONE!
Society is naturally in a state of anarchy. It is government that tries to suppress, control, and exploit it.

You seem to think everything good comes from government. Everything bad comes from anarchy.

This country was at its most prosperous in the late 19th century-early 20th century (before 1913), with very small government. It is at its most stagnant with very big government (post World War II).

I'll give you a simple equation to help you understand.

ANARCHY / GOVERNMENT = PROSPERITY

More anarchy means more prosperity.
More government means more poverty.

 

[QueEx]

I don't think you know what anarchy is.

Propserity, creativity, innovation and invention, discovery, and learning are functions of anarchy...

And, in what country does your anarchy exist ?

QueEx

 

[Cruise]

And, in what country does your anarchy exist ?

QueEx

I thought it was clear, but maybe not.

Every society is in anarchy. Every society from the dawn of man begins in anarchy.

So, to answer your question, every country has anarchy.

It is the fight to maintain anarchy that defines the success of a society.

In this country, too many are willing to just lay down to government. They don't want to produce, or prosper, or have any risk. They want the government to take care of everything.

That is the path to poverty because it is the path which suppresses anarchy.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

As I thought

A philosophy built on nonsense and afforded to one who has lived his entire existence in the womb of the United States of America.

 

[Cruise]

As I thought

A philosophy built on nonsense and afforded to one who has lived his entire existence in the womb of the United States of America.

Just as I thought.

You still haven't given an example of a successful society outside of anarchy.

Nor, have you explained what this "womb of the United States" has done for me to get my "cushy" lifestyle.

 

[thoughtone]

And, in what country does your anarchy exist ?

QueEx

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
anarchy

1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature


Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Just as I thought.

You still haven't given an example of a successful society outside of anarchy.

Nor, have you explained what this "womb of the United States" has done for me to get my "cushy" lifestyle.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
anarchy

1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature


Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan

You damn fool. Ask the vast majority of the people that live in the three nations noted about the "womb of the United States" and whether they would trade their anarchy for your stifling government.
Yours is the type of thinking similar to paternalistic, White liberals or Black middle class kids who get misty eyed about Black "ghetto" life and how authentic it is compared to their own lives.

Another trait of a person who's in over their heads in a conversation is not answering the question but instead switching it around like they have a valid argument.

 

[QueEx]

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
anarchy

1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature


Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan

Concurring:

Anarchy . . . simply means there is no established authority.

. . . and explaining how to get rid of authority (a-k-a, the recipe for anarchy):

The people have the power and all they do is just grab more and more of it.

First, you need to get rid of the Federal government.

Then, you need to establish a strong court system with a truly independent jury. You get rid of the Federal courts but keep state/local courts. You get rid of the Constitution, and in my opinion, keep the Bill of Rights.

From there, people can build a charter for the country through the internet. Each city, county, and state can send representatives to a conference (in a different city, no established capital) to decide on matters affecting the nation.

There are a lot of ways this could work but the first step is getting rid of the Federal government and the concept of a President.

Power needs a base. You destroy the base, you destroy the power. The power base is in Washington DC. You get rid of it, the power will come back to the people.

I'm not saying physically destroy the city. My point is the institutions (Congress, the Supreme Court, the White House, the Fed . . .

 

[Blu Diablo]

....because everyone knows courts aren't a part of the system of government at all.

 

[QueEx]

....because everyone knows courts aren't a part of the system of government at all.

Ummm . . . well . . . they really are (though I think I know where you're coming from - i.e., administration and conduct of government):

At the federal level and probably in every state as well, there are three branches of government:

• The executive branch - the presidency at the federal level; the governorships at the state level; and the mayors at the local level;

• The legislative branch - the U.S. Congress at the federal level; the state legislatures at the state level; and the city councils or assemblies at the local level; and

• The judicial branch - the federal courts with the U.S. Supreme Court being the highest court in this country; the state court systems usually headed by State Supreme Courts (in New York, however, I believe that level is called the Superior Court); and municipal or city courts, at the local level.

The Anarchist, however, proposes to do away the federal court system so that there will be no central government authority over his "capital-less" = "authority-less" country, counties and cities.

Under Cruise's construct, "local courts" would continue in existence, but, they would be rendered a bunch of renegade tribunals where precedence is inapplicable - because there would be no central authority (Supreme Court) with power to harmonize the decisions of the local courts.

Assuming Cruise allows the 50 states to continue in existence, there would be at least 50 sets of laws, (and perhaps thousands when you count the thousands of city courts in the United States). Therefore, with tens of thousands of local courts, each with their own version of the law, the court system itself would simply become part and parcel of a system, with no governmental authority = anarchy.

QueEx


P.S.

Thats what Mr. Cruise is selling. Sounds good right? - until you drive from Your City (with laws similar to what you know now) and into Cruise City which prohibits and imposes a six month jail sentence for a guy and a fine-ass babe riding in the same vehicle. And don't even ask how much ass = fine, because it could vary in the 1000's of local courts.

`

 

[Lamarr]

You still haven't answered the question and you will further veer of topic. Your knowledge of government is laughable. What do you mean by "government"? Answer this and I will go on.

your trust in govt is laughable!

look, someone issued the 1300 citations, right? whether it was OSHA or the WV Office of Miners' Health Safety & Training, either a state or federal regulatory agency. Somebody dropped the ball & once again, nobody is being held accountable.

So let me get this right, the regulatory entities (created by the govt) issue 1300 citations but won't enforce the penalties. The state is not going to turn a blind eye to this revenue unless..........................instructed!

Joe Manchin - Governor (D)
"Sheets" Byrd - Senator (D) first elected in 1958
J. Rock - Senator (D) first elected in 1984
Alan Mollohan - Rep (D) first elected in 1982
Shelley Capito - Rep (R) first elected in 2000
Nick Rahall - Rep (D) first elected in 1976

the good ol boy network is alive & kickin' & some are expecting "change"

Just for the record, govt does have a role in our society but to think they can prevent accidents from occuring, is something different. WV's first state agency was formed in 1883, and yet, over 100 years later, these unfortunate incidents occur

 

[QueEx]

[my understanding] of govt is laughable!

Just for the record, govt does have a role in our society -- but to think they can prevent accidents from occuring, is something different.

I agree. Remove the tens of millions of stop signs and traffic lights across this great country. They're just cluttering the place the fuck up.

WV's first state agency was formed in 1883, and yet, over 100 years later, these unfortunate incidents occur

Again, you're right. So, we need to elect more of you Librarians to go back and repeal all of those laws, rules, etc., which require bracing or other mechanisms that help to prevent mine collapse (sounds like you HUH, "mind collapse"). Miners didn't need that shit anyway and if they were never ordered by the government to be installed, we would have fewer minors complaining about safety today.

 

[Blu Diablo]

Ummm . . . well . . . they really are (though I think I know where you're coming from - i.e., administration and conduct of government):
`

My response was really a reply Cruise's concept of a court system without central a authority (though he seems to completely overlook the fact that the court system is a branch of government), I just didn't feel like quoting that nonsense he was spewing.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

your trust in govt is laughable!

look, someone issued the 1300 citations, right? whether it was OSHA or the WV Office of Miners' Health Safety & Training, either a state or federal regulatory agency. Somebody dropped the ball & once again, nobody is being held accountable.

So let me get this right, the regulatory entities (created by the govt) issue 1300 citations but won't enforce the penalties. The state is not going to turn a blind eye to this revenue unless..........................instructed!

Joe Manchin - Governor (D)
"Sheets" Byrd - Senator (D) first elected in 1958
J. Rock - Senator (D) first elected in 1984
Alan Mollohan - Rep (D) first elected in 1982
Shelley Capito - Rep (R) first elected in 2000
Nick Rahall - Rep (D) first elected in 1976

the good ol boy network is alive & kickin' & some are expecting "change"

Just for the record, govt does have a role in our society but to think they can prevent accidents from occuring, is something different. WV's first state agency was formed in 1883, and yet, over 100 years later, these unfortunate incidents occur

From what I've read, Massey has the right to appeal each of the citations and has done so, tying them up in court.
I'm very much in favor of private companies having that right but this sounds like an abuse of it.

 

[thoughtone]

your trust in govt is laughable!

look, someone issued the 1300 citations, right? whether it was OSHA or the WV Office of Miners' Health Safety & Training, either a state or federal regulatory agency. Somebody dropped the ball & once again, nobody is being held accountable.

So let me get this right, the regulatory entities (created by the govt) issue 1300 citations but won't enforce the penalties. The state is not going to turn a blind eye to this revenue unless..........................instructed!

Joe Manchin - Governor (D)
"Sheets" Byrd - Senator (D) first elected in 1958
J. Rock - Senator (D) first elected in 1984
Alan Mollohan - Rep (D) first elected in 1982
Shelley Capito - Rep (R) first elected in 2000
Nick Rahall - Rep (D) first elected in 1976

the good ol boy network is alive & kickin' & some are expecting "change"

Just for the record, govt does have a role in our society but to think they can prevent accidents from occuring, is something different. WV's first state agency was formed in 1883, and yet, over 100 years later, these unfortunate incidents occur

OK, since you WON"T answer my question, I will try and focus my answer because since you have been posting, I can't see what you beef is. First you say government intervention in business is evil, then you say Glass Steagall should be put back in place or is it that it should never have been removed or that it should have been enforced or not enforced too stringently? Now you say the government should have enforced the rules that you say the government should not have burdened business with in the first place?

Let me word the original question a different way, are you against the individuals that we elect or are you against the rules or are you anarchist and don't want government at all. What do you have against the 'government"? Because if your house was burning down and the fire fighters said your private account wasn't paid up and they couldn't put the fire out, then you be the first one to say, government is damn good!

 

[Lamarr]

From what I've read, Massey has the right to appeal each of the citations and has done so, tying them up in court.
I'm very much in favor of private companies having that right but this sounds like an abuse of it.

This is my point and I'm not imposing my beliefs whether it's right or wrong on anyone but the govt came up with this 2006 Mine Improvement and New Emergency Response Act and it has only created a bigger logjam in the courts: It appears to me that the Govt cure is worse than the govt disease. it's a pattern, this sh*t happens time after time, regardless of the industry.

Of course I care about the safety of all workers. It's just jacked up because govt continues to create a new policy to cover up from the previous failed policy

I just came across something from the Washington post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/09/AR2010040905653.html

The backlog of contested citations has grown since the 2006 Mine Improvement and New Emergency Response Act boosted the number of inspectors, stiffened fines and toughened safety regulations for the nation's coal mines, inadvertently overloading the Federal Mine Safety and Health Review Commission, which has a backlog of more than 16,600 contested cases. The commission's judges are each handling more than 900 cases a year, compared with the 175 a year typically handled by judges at the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which oversees other workplaces. Two-thirds of penalties are being litigated, according to the House Education and Labor Committee.

In operators' favor

The logjam works to the advantage of mining operators. When weighing whether to put a mine in the pattern-of-violation category, federal regulators cannot count any contested violation, and they may consider only violations that have occurred within the past 24 months. Yet cases at the commission are taking an average of 27 months to resolve, according to data provided by MSHA to the labor committee.

The Miner Act also increased penalties to encourage safer practices, but the effort backfired because it increased the incentives for companies such as Massey to contest violations and reduce fines. The act instituted a new penalty formula that drives up the price of fines as the number of violations grows. The average cost for a fine in a company's commission dockets, which sometimes includes multiple violations, shot up from $5,172 in 2006 to $14,157, commission records show.
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"The hope and expectation was that operators would comply, rather than leave themselves vulnerable to the increased penalties. Instead, a lot of operators have opted to contest every citation, leading to the backlog at the commission," said Judy Rivlin, associate general counsel of the United Mine Workers of America.

 

[QueEx]

My response was really a reply Cruise's concept of a court system without central a authority (though he seems to completely overlook the fact that the court system is a branch of government), I just didn't feel like quoting that nonsense he was spewing.

Gotcha!

 

[Lamarr]

I agree. Remove the tens of millions of stop signs and traffic lights across this great country. They're just cluttering the place the fuck up.

now thats the QueEx I know

Again, you're right. So, we need to elect more of you Librarians to go back and repeal all of those laws, rules, etc., which require bracing or other mechanisms that help to prevent mine collapse (sounds like you HUH, "mind collapse"). Miners didn't need that shit anyway and if they were never ordered by the government to be installed, we would have fewer minors complaining about safety today.

Librarians, Did you get that from Thought? you on a roll today

Bruh, what I'm sayin is that it should be obvious that the nation can't afford the bigger govt you & others desire. Fiscally speaking, govt expenditures are more than the revenues: something must be cut, you decide, but we cannot continue to depend on the creation of "money out of thin air" to finance our debt.

 

[Cruise]

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
anarchy

1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature


Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan

None are examples of anarchy because they are not truly without an established order, namely white imperialists establish the social order and disrupt the non-white social order.

I think it's despicable you use non-white countries to somehow demean them.

What is your example of a white country that is similar or do you think white countries are just naturally better?

It's as if your argument is that non-white people are unruly savages that need the harsh hand of white rule to keep them in line. Is that it?

I agree. Remove the tens of millions of stop signs and traffic lights across this great country. They're just cluttering the place the fuck up.

So no Federal government means no traffic laws?

Hmmm. A Central Government is better than the local community deciding if and when and where traffic signs should appear in their neighborhood. That is much more efficient than asking the people who live there.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

This is my point and I'm not imposing my beliefs whether it's right or wrong on anyone but the govt came up with this 2006 Mine Improvement and New Emergency Response Act and it has only created a bigger logjam in the courts: It appears to me that the Govt cure is worse than the govt disease. it's a pattern, this sh*t happens time after time, regardless of the industry.

Of course I care about the safety of all workers. It's just jacked up because govt continues to create a new policy to cover up from the previous failed policy

I just came across something from the Washington post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/09/AR2010040905653.html

I think we only disagree in a matter of degrees, if I'm reading you wrong, let me know.

I don't believe government is the answer to all things but, as you said, they do have a place. In the case of the mines, their place is to do a better job of regulation and enforcement instead of the half ass one they did in 2006. Fast food places don't get to enjoy the privileges mines do. They get too many violations, they're shut down. They get one really low health score, they're shut down.
It's obvious Massey wasn't going to look out for the safety of it's employees and someone has to. People just deciding to not work there isn't a viable answer.

None are examples of anarchy because they are not truly without an established order, namely white imperialists establish the social order and disrupt the non-white social order.

I think it's despicable you use non-white countries to somehow demean them.

What is your example of a white country that is similar or do you think white countries are just naturally better?

It's as if your argument is that non-white people are unruly savages that need the harsh hand of white rule to keep them in line. Is that it?
So no Federal government means no traffic laws?

Hmmm. A Central Government is better than the local community deciding if and when and where traffic signs should appear in their neighborhood. That is much more efficient than asking the people who live there.

Classic straw men arguments. If you can't hang, leave.

I'm starting to think there should be some type of test for someone to come to this board from the main one.

btw, local governments determine where traffic signs go with community input not some large "Central Government". Do you think Barack Obama worries about traffic lights in your town?

 

[QueEx]

btw, local governments determine where traffic signs go with community input not some large "Central Government". Do you think Barack Obama worries about traffic lights in your town?

Thanks. He reached over and pulled that one from a discussion unrelated to his and completely out of context AND STILL, LOL, failed to make a valid point.

QueEx

 

[Cruise]

Thanks. He reached over and pulled that one from a discussion unrelated to his and completely out of context AND STILL, LOL, failed to make a valid point.

QueEx

Oh... so you do know traffic signs would not magically disappear under anarchy.

Will wonders never cease.

 

[thoughtone]

Librarians, Did you get that from Thought? you on a roll today

No answer Lamarr?

 

[thoughtone]

None are examples of anarchy because they are not truly without an established order, namely white imperialists establish the social order and disrupt the non-white social order.

You bring in race to a non racial example means you arguments are weak.

 

[Cruise]

You bring in race to a non racial example means you arguments are weak.

Yeah, how dare I mention the elephant in the room.