Superteams usually underperform - will Durant's Warriors be different?

Spectrum

Elite Poster
BGOL Investor
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features...rform-will-the-kevin-durant-era-be-different/

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Adding superstars isn’t always easy.

NOAH GRAHAM / NBAE VIA GETTY IMAGES

As we approach the sixth anniversary of LeBron James’s infamous “Decision,” another free-agent megastar has taken his talents to a superteam. Kevin Durant announced Monday that he was leaving the Oklahoma City Thunder for the Golden State Warriors, joining a team that had already set the league’s all-time wins record without him. The resulting roster could easily end up being the most stacked in NBA history — though there’s also good reason to doubt that they’ll be quite as dominant as they seem now.

The best ever — on paper
First things first: These new-look Warriors probably won’t match their own record for victories, no matter how much of a boost they get from Durant. Sure, it could happen again, but too many things would have to go right at once to make another 73-win season likely. Even last season’s Warriors barely held on to break the 1995-96 Chicago Bulls’ record, clearing it by a game after losing twice in the regular season’s penultimate week. (To say nothing of the team’s relative slog through the playoffs, in which the Warriors lost another nine times in only 24 games.) Winning all but eight or nine games in an 82-game schedule is ridiculously hard, no matter how gifted your roster is.

But make no mistake, by the numbers, the 2016-17 Warriors could easily prove to be the most talented team in modern NBA history. If we use Basketball-Reference.com’s Simple Projection System to predict each player’s Box Plus/Minus for the following season and sum up those projections for each team,1 next year’s Warriors would be the most-talented team since 1979-802 if they merely surrounded their existing players — Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, Zaza Pachulia and David West, who isreportedly signing with Golden State on the veteran’s minimum — withreplacement-level talent (think Luc Mbah a Moute or Norris Cole). In other words, even if they don’t add another meaningful player, Durant’s Warriors will probably surpass James’s 2010-11 Heat as the best collection of talent in the league’s past four decades or so.

PROJECTED BOX PLUS/MINUS ACTUAL BPM
YEAR
TEAM OFFENSE DEFENSE TOTAL OFFENSE DEFENSE TOTAL
2017 Warriors* 8.2 4.1 12.3 — — —
2011 Heat 7.6 4.2 11.7 4.3 3.2 7.5
2015 Cavaliers 9.5 0.6 10.2 5.5 -1.1 4.4
1993 Bulls 5.9 3.4 9.3 4.9 1.6 6.5
2012 Heat 4.6 4.3 8.9 2.6 3.7 6.3
1997 Bulls 3.6 5.0 8.6 7.6 4.3 11.8
1998 Bulls 3.7 4.6 8.3 3.1 4.9 8.0
2016 Thunder 6.1 1.9 8.0 6.5 0.9 7.4
1991 Lakers 6.3 1.6 7.9 4.1 2.8 7.0
1996 Bulls 1.7 6.1 7.8 7.3 5.6 13.0
1995 Magic 4.9 2.8 7.7 7.0 -0.2 6.8
The most talented “on paper” NBA teams since 1980
* 100 percent of leftover minutes given to replacement-level players.

SOURCE: BASKETBALL-REFERENCE.COM

And as my colleagues Nate Silver and Kyle Wagner wrote Monday, these superteams often manage to squeeze better-than-replacement talent onto their rosters despite a lack of cap space, since their high odds of winning a championship are a strong lure for veterans. So it’s possible that Golden State will cobble together even more pure talent before the offseason is over.

Talent vs. diminishing returns
But that Miami team should also serve as a powerful restraint on enthusiasm about the 2017 Warriors’ potential. Before 2010, we’d never really seen a group of team-carrying stars assembled in their primes like James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh; it was uncharted territory, and the possibilities seemed endless. But despite such unprecedented ability, Miami struggled to live up to its perceived potential, becoming the first in a line of superteams that would not be as good as the sum of their parts.

Now that we’ve seen a few examples of this type of team, we can see that as a team’s talent level rises (as measured by BPM), so too does its likelihood of underperforming relative to that talent:

paine-warriors-11.png

The root cause is probably age-old: diminishing returns. And it’s a problem amplified in basketball. With only five players on the court at any given time — and only one who can possess the ball — adding talent can help a team only so much. Eventually it becomes more important to surround a star with less-talented players whose skills complement his own, rather than another star whose overlapping abilities are largely wasted. Although some superteams have been constructed in a way that harnessed their stars’ full potential — the 1996-97 Bulls surpassed expectations, for instance, becoming greater than the sum of their hyper-talented parts — most stockpile too much of one skill set or another and end up underperforming as a result.

The superteam’s secret formula
So what’s a superteam like Golden State to do? Is there a formula for battling the scourge of diminishing returns?

Perhaps — though only at the margins.

Among the top 10 percent of teams in our sample according to projected talent,3 a few trends emerged that had some small predictive power over a roster’s ability to meet its expectations. Unsurprisingly, even after controlling for their overall projected talent levels, teams that collected more high-usage players4 tended to underperform, which speaks to the dangers of assembling a lineup of scorers and having them fight over one ball. Also, teams stocked with rebounders tended to fall short of expectations more often than the average squad.

At the other end of the spectrum, teams rife with shooters, passers and defenders5 tended to resist the pull of diminishing returns more effectively than their peers. This makes perfect basketball sense: Unlike on offense, adding defensive talent seems to only make a team stronger, all else being equal, and ball movement and floor-spacing have long been known to help an offense become more than the sum of its parts.

But again, these factors make a small difference at best. And how they pertain to the 2016-17 Warriors is still a little complicated. Regardless of roster construction, Golden State will probably still fall well short of its projected team BPM when the team members take the court together, and Durant gives them a third scorer (with Curry and Thompson) who ranked among the NBA’s top 30 players by usage rate (two were in the top 10) last season. Think of the diminishing returns!

On the other hand, staggering Durant’s minutes with Russell Westbrook’sworked well for Oklahoma City last season, and with four stars to spread across bench lineups instead of two, Golden State may find ways to minimize wasted potential possessions for its stars throughout the game. Besides, the Warriors also figure to have a mix of shooting, passing and defense6 that will be unrivaled in the league. That combination alone will probably help Golden State gel better than other superteams have in recent seasons, even if it can’t fully escape the force of diminishing returns.
 

Tha Great Muta

Rising Star
Platinum Member
I'm just disappointed Durant chose a championship over the $$$$ when he could have had both by going to the Spurs or OKC if they was gonna offer more $$$$.

That Harrison Barnes contract is hilarious.
 

Tha Great Muta

Rising Star
Platinum Member
Nah he made the right choice.

Yea...the easy way out.:smh:

How you going to go to a team you was up 3-1 on that you lose to only to watch that exact same team do the same exact shi IN THE FINALS!! I would be laughing my ass off at that team not joining em.
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
Great article that is on the lines of what I've been saying..
The problem is that most people are clueless on how offenses work. Most are under the impression that if you get a bunch of players who can score, together they will not only score but win..
This may be true but there are so many variables to consider, one is shooting %, how many shots they take a game, and turn overs, just to name a few..
In the case of Durant to the warriors, I do not see how having him is going to give the Warriors more shots, so either Durant is going to shoot 10 shots a game (number of shots that the guy he is replacing shot) or he is going to have to cut into the shots of the other players, on a team that shoots for a higher % than any other team, in just about the history of the NBA..
From there the formula is simple, if he shoots at a lower % than the guys shots he is replacing then the G.S. total point will go down, if he shoots at a higher % then the point total will go up..
I say that with that Warrior lineup, chances are Durant will be taking shots form players who shoot at a higher clip than himself, so instead of adding to the scoring Durant may be taking away points...
But like one person said in this tread, they do not have time nor do they care to understand all this technical stuff....
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
Folks are killing Barnes, but I would not be the least bit surprised to see him having a break out season this year... I think many of his problems in the finals is similar to that of Love, being that he needs to be more hands on in the offense, but with all those shooters its difficult for him to get touches and shoot his way out of slumps, something that Durant is also going to have to deal with ...
 

dtownsfinest

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
The writer mean's Curry's Warriors. Durant is a complimentary player.

:lol: Man so I guess Lebron was a complimentary player to Wade then is that where you going with this? Y'all trying to tarnish this mans legacy because y'all mad at him. Curry and KD are both top 5 players in the league. Both gonna have the same impact on that team.
 

dtownsfinest

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Yea...the easy way out.:smh:

How you going to go to a team you was up 3-1 on that you lose to only to watch that exact same team do the same exact shi IN THE FINALS!! I would be laughing my ass off at that team not joining em.
Because he wants a ring? Plus maybe he would rather be in Cali than Oklahoma? I don't see none of you niggas rushing to Oklahoma to live. :lol: He spent 9 years in Seattle and Oklahoma........
 

Tha Great Muta

Rising Star
Platinum Member
Because he wants a ring? Plus maybe he would rather be in Cali than Oklahoma? I don't see none of you niggas rushing to Oklahoma to live. :lol: He spent 9 years in Seattle and Oklahoma........

The Supersonics were a cool ass team :smh: but foh nigga he can buy a house anywhere he won't he don't have to LIVE in Oklahoma. If that's the case why not go to the Lakers, or the Spurs he went to college in Texas. This is that new NBA shit I be talking about. KD suppose to have beef with them GS niggas.
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
GS replaced Barnes with KD... That's a hell of a replacement
Again you have to look at the number and know how to read them...
Last finals folks blamed Barnes for the Warriors failure, but in the last game he took only ten shots, making three...
While its true chances are Durant would have done better, but if Durant were to truly take Barns spot by taking his shots, according to Durant average, .480 shooting..
he would have made only 1.80 more shots than Barnes, that translate to a little under three points..
Any shots over ten shots means he is not just taking the role of Barns but instead taking shots form other players, most of them who shoots higher than Durant, so instead of adding points, as in the case of Barnes, we will have to start subtracting them... At the end, unless Durant is able to create more shots for the Warriors, the math just ain't adding up...
 

yaBoi

X-pert Professional
Platinum Member
Because he wants a ring? Plus maybe he would rather be in Cali than Oklahoma? I don't see none of you niggas rushing to Oklahoma to live. :lol: He spent 9 years in Seattle and Oklahoma........
niggas complaining but they would leave they job in a second if they got better one
 

BDR

BeatDownRecs
BGOL Investor
Again you have to look at the number and know how to read them...
Last finals folks blamed Barnes for the Warriors failure, but in the last game he took only ten shots, making three...
While its true chances are Durant would have done better, but if Durant were to truly take Barns spot by taking his shots, according to Durant average, .480 shooting..
he would have made only 1.80 more shots than Barnes, that translate to a little under three points..
Any shots over ten shots means he is not just taking the role of Barns but instead taking shots form other players, most of them who shoots higher than Durant, so instead of adding points, as in the case of Barnes, we will have to start subtracting them... At the end, unless Durant is able to create more shots for the Warriors, the math just ain't adding up...

All finals he went 3-53 dude just stop right there no need for an explanation he gave them nothing
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
:lol: Man so I guess Lebron was a complimentary player to Wade then is that where you going with this? Y'all trying to tarnish this mans legacy because y'all mad at him. Curry and KD are both top 5 players in the league. Both gonna have the same impact on that team.
Complementry player don't win MVP's in both regular season and in the finals... KD will not take enough shots to be an impact player and if he does, thats good news for the other teams, becasue I'd rather K.D. shooting at his .480 clip than Curry, Thompson or even Green...
 

dtownsfinest

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Complementry player don't win MVP's in both regular season and in the finals... KD will not take enough shots to be an impact player and if he does, thats good news for the other teams, becasue I'd rather K.D. shooting at his .480 clip than Curry, Thompson or even Green...

How do you know what KD will or will not do? This nigga hasn't even PLAYED ONE GAME for the Warriors. You think these niggas sold to him "Ayyy come to the Warriors so you can be the 4th scoring option? You believe that shit?
 
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dtownsfinest

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
The Supersonics were a cool ass team :smh: but foh nigga he can buy a house anywhere he won't he don't have to LIVE in Oklahoma. If that's the case why not go to the Lakers, or the Spurs he went to college in Texas. This is that new NBA shit I be talking about. KD suppose to have beef with them GS niggas.

What do you mean he doesn't have to live there? From October to May they play at home half the time. You want KD to live out of a hotel for that time?

Why would he go to the Lakers when they suck? Spurs....shit I don't see why you would join the Spurs over the Warriors....ya'll would say the same shit. That he ring chasing. With Lamarcus and Leonard.....I guess Durant suppose to play the 5 or the 2 huh?
 

BDR

BeatDownRecs
BGOL Investor
He still was averaging less than ten shots a game thats the big number you have to keep your eye on....

Even so if he made 4 of those shots on every ten possessions GS would be back to back champs but instead he made 1 shots on every 17 shots attempted that's atrocious
 

dtownsfinest

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
niggas complaining but they would leave they job in a second if they got better one

These people so damn silly. They don't see life like that though. The way they view life is that they will do anything for themselves. KD doing what's right for him and sideline niggas hurt by it. :lol: Fucking Oklahoma lol.........
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
Its like a math problem that stupid people could never figure out...
If you had a guy who shoots 22% but takes three shots a game..
And you replace him with a guy with a guy who averages 30 pts a game but shoots at 50%
You place him on a team that averages 83 shots per game but shoots for 60%
If all thing remain the same in terms of average shots per game will this 30 pts averaging playing give this team more or less production...
 

gene cisco

Not A BGOL Eunuch
BGOL Investor
Great article that is on the lines of what I've been saying..
The problem is that most people are clueless on how offenses work. Most are under the impression that if you get a bunch of players who can score, together they will not only score but win..
This may be true but there are so many variables to consider, one is shooting %, how many shots they take a game, and turn overs, just to name a few..
In the case of Durant to the warriors, I do not see how having him is going to give the Warriors more shots, so either Durant is going to shoot 10 shots a game (number of shots that the guy he is replacing shot) or he is going to have to cut into the shots of the other players, on a team that shoots for a higher % than any other team, in just about the history of the NBA..
From there the formula is simple, if he shoots at a lower % than the guys shots he is replacing then the G.S. total point will go down, if he shoots at a higher % then the point total will go up..
I say that with that Warrior lineup, chances are Durant will be taking shots form players who shoot at a higher clip than himself, so instead of adding to the scoring Durant may be taking away points...
But like one person said in this tread, they do not have time nor do they care to understand all this technical stuff....

Yeah, it's not going to be as easy as everyone thinks. And who gets to jack the 20-30 footer with the game on the line(no one is going to the rack during the playoffs)? Durant is superior to Curry, so shouldn't the ball be in his hands at the end of games?

Bosh, James, and Wade are great friends and it took them time to decide who was going to be who. Bosh had to sacrifice and then it went from Wade's team to Bron's team before they won. In GS situation, Green or KT makes the sacrifice and it becomes Durant's team instead of Curry's.

It's going to be interesting, especially with all the pressure. They will be compared to the 73-win team. Every little mistake magnified.
 

Lower9Nupe

Rising Star
Registered
Yea...the easy way out.:smh:

How you going to go to a team you was up 3-1 on that you lose to only to watch that exact same team do the same exact shi IN THE FINALS!! I would be laughing my ass off at that team not joining em.

Nah...right choice. You play for a team for nine years. You watch them get rid of Hardin without consulting you. You finally get to the point where your gram can actually compete for a title and they trade away a key player on draft day without consulting you.

The GM got on television saying their way of management is successful. What does that tell you? It tells you their definition of success is monetary, not championships. You have doubts? The trading of Ibaka, per OKC managment, was for the future (keyword) of the franchise, not to bring a championship home to OKC and Durant.

You still think he took the easy route? Nine years under a undercutting regime isn't enough? Facts bruh...Facts.

I would have left as well.
 

Spectrum

Elite Poster
BGOL Investor
Complementry player don't win MVP's in both regular season and in the finals... KD will not take enough shots to be an impact player and if he does, thats good news for the other teams, becasue I'd rather K.D. shooting at his .480 clip than Curry, Thompson or even Green...

KD has shot over 50% the last 4 seasons. His shooting percentage is likely going to RISE because he'll get much easier shots.
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
Even so if he made 4 of those shots on every ten possessions GS would be back to back champs but instead he made 1 shots on every 17 shots attempted that's atrocious
You are assuming a rhythm shooting like Durant shooting statistics will remain the same with those few shots taken, this would be the biggest challenge for him if he really were to be a ten shots taking guy for the Warriors...
 

KingTaharqa

Greatest Of All Time
BGOL Investor
:lol: Man so I guess Lebron was a complimentary player to Wade then is that where you going with this? Y'all trying to tarnish this mans legacy because y'all mad at him. Curry and KD are both top 5 players in the league. Both gonna have the same impact on that team.

If KD leads the Warriors in points, rebounds, and assists while winning 2 Finals MVPs I'll drop the "complimentary" tag. Chances are Curry is gonna lead them in points and still be their main star. I know yall think what Miami did was EASY and can be duplicated, but you're about to see just how rare it is that Wade & Bron did what they did.
 

Tha Great Muta

Rising Star
Platinum Member
What do you mean he doesn't have to live there? From October to May they play at home half the time. You want KD to live out of a hotel for that time?

Why would he go to the Lakers when they suck? Spurs....shit I don't see why you would join the Spurs over the Warriors....ya'll would say the same shit. That he ring chasing. With Lamarcus and Leonard.....I guess Durant suppose to play the 5 or the 2 huh?

Nigga he in the NBA he gon be in hotel regardless.

Move LA to center and boom. And you clown KD playing the two but his ball handling skills for a man of his size is incredible.
 

Spectrum

Elite Poster
BGOL Investor
How do you know what KD will or will not do? This nigga hasn't even PLAYED ONE GAME for the Warriors. You think these niggas sold to him "Ayyy come to the Warriors so you can be the 4th scoring option? You believe that shit?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Curry takes the big sacrifice and drops down to low 20s again (+ learns to be a better distributor) and KD leads this team in scoring. KD is a much better scorer than Curry.
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
KD has shot over 50% the last 4 seasons. His shooting percentage is likely going to RISE because he'll get much easier shots.
Conventional wisdom would say that, but unlike OKC where he was allowed to shoot any time he wants having a feel to when he was hot or cold, here he is going to be forced to play the Kevin Love roll, that is shoot when the team needs you to shoot, with out the luxury of being that hands on the ball guy who can pick and choose...
This is why I never killed Love as much as most people, especially after seeing him adjust to his roll by focusing on rebounding and doing other things off the ball, to help his team win..
 

RoadRage

the voice of reason
BGOL Investor
I actually wouldn't be surprised if Curry takes the big sacrifice and drops down to low 20s again (+ learns to be a better distributor) and KD leads this team in scoring. KD is a much better scorer than Curry.
If he does that then its a plus for the opponents, being that Curry shoots for a much higher %...
 

KingTaharqa

Greatest Of All Time
BGOL Investor
Yeah, it's not going to be as easy as everyone thinks. And who gets to jack the 20-30 footer with the game on the line(no one is going to the rack during the playoffs)? Durant is superior to Curry, so shouldn't the ball be in his hands at the end of games?

Bosh, James, and Wade are great friends and it took them time to decide who was going to be who. Bosh had to sacrifice and then it went from Wade's team to Bron's team before they won. In GS situation, Green or KT makes the sacrifice and it becomes Durant's team instead of Curry's.

It's going to be interesting, especially with all the pressure. They will be compared to the 73-win team. Every little mistake magnified.

The people who hated Miami the most want Golden State to BE Miami. It's gonna be interesting to see how it unfolds and they are kidding themselves if they think it wont be some individual sacrifice involved to win the chip. Not to mention they still gotta get thru LeBron. :smh:
 
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