It has nothing to do with speaking ill. It has to do with fact combating misinformation.
Star Trek: 10 Reasons Why Benjamin Sisko Is The Greatest Starfleet Captain
- Thread starter Uncontainable_Spirit
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It has nothing to do with speaking ill. It has to do with fact combating misinformation.
i wasn't trying to be adversarial just saying gene didn't have it anymore in fact the one original series movie he had control over star trek the motion picture sucked they snatched control of it from him and the wrath of khan was light years better
If Star Trek was real, and I could choose to be an officer under any of the Star Trek captains' command, I'd choose Janeway. I liked her leadership style: She was determined and resolute; yet, she listened to the opinions of her officers better than any of the other Captains. Generally speaking, I think this is why she had the highest crew morale.
No Colin. Lost it after 3rd post, but concur wholeheartedly. Sisko put it all on the line and held fast to his core to get him through any obsatacle, and.... won, even when he lost. Sisko FTW Gotdammit.
Boy this thread brought out all kinds of lurkers.
But yeah I see what you mean and I also see that you are probably a purist. And I am pretty much an OG purist myself. But the difference is in a strict adherence to Mr.Roddenberry's philosophy and idealistic ideology and a bigger creative license for writers.
Star Trek is one of those shows that is a writer's paradise. The writing has always been top notch even for the animated episodes in the early 70s. Gene's vision was so strict and binding that it hampered the writers in the first few seasons of TNG. Especially the first season
Berman introduced much more conflict which is great for writers to play with. Genes preference for the species to evolve beyond character conflicts and space opera would limit greatly what the writers could do with character growth and backstory.
Look at all the character conflict in the 60s series. That's what made the show. Gene wanted the species and Star Fleet to evolve beyond those emotional and personality flaws.
Your beef should be with JJ Abrams and what he did with the characters and the writing. He turned it into a cartoonish joke and a caricature. Berman was at least a serious artist and craftsman who treated the franchise with the utmost respect and great care. Abrams just trashed and soiled it like a spoiled bratty child rather than a serious and respectful artist and trekkie.
Abrams is not even a real trekkie. That should let anyone know that dude would have no problem at all trashing the whole franchise, canon and mythology. No respect at all.
Check out the Trek Nation documentary his son made if you haven't seen it already. I have seen it like ten or fifteen times already. Lots of insight in this doc. Even shows some of the creative differences between Gene and DC Fontana one of his very early writers on the show. Writers see things differently sometimes but still respect the art and the overall vision of the franchise..
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=13076706&postcount=6262
doesn't include the new movie(s) casting
Gene Roddenberry was a hack. he stole all the ideas for Star Trek TOS from Harlan Ellison, who wrote the original treatment for the series and the backdrop for it.
ROddenberry didnt even get THAT right, as he took some of the better ideas away replacing them with the campy shit we ended up with. dude was so hard to work with he was forced out from TOS! he had NOTHING to do with the 3rd season of TOS.
Harve Bennett deserves the credit for Wrath Of Khan (which Roddenberry HATED) and the movies that followed it. the execs a Paramount HAD to get rid of Roddenberry because he was impossible to work with, ran way over their budget and had the idea to make the sequel about the Klingons stopping the Kennedy assassination.
Rick Berman, Gene Coon, David Gerrold, DC Fontana and Bob Justman among others deserve the credit for TNG's success, as it did a 180 degree turn from Roddenberry's vision of Starfleet NOT BEING a military organization. did you get that? Roddenberry had no clue that Starfleet was a military organization, and as the writers began to depict as such he went stark raving mad, sending hislawyer in to fuck with the wcript writing at every turn. they had to SAVE the series from him. the writers found Roddenberry to be so INEPT they QUIT EN MASSE, only to be lured back AFTER he died.
your saying Roddenberry laid out the story before he died is a complete lie. they did such an about face they put a blindfold over a bust of Roddenberry's head so it wouldnt see the departure from its creator's vision.
Roddenberry VOTED AGAINST Patrick Stewart being cast as Picard, and TRIED to get rid of him afterwards. if it wasnt for Corey Allen going behind Roddenberry's back we wouldve never had Patric Stewart as Picard. he treated him like shit the whole time they worked together.
i can go on and on.
the reality is: Roddenberry's passing was the best thing that happened to TNG and the following Star Trek shows. it turned into drama rather than camp. he wouldnt even let there be any conflict between the characters, because they had to be PERFECT. dude had SOME god ideas, and im not diminishing them, but he was FAR LESS involved with the successes and FAR MORE involved with the failures.
me...ignorant about sci-fi...
Janeway was a bully and literally had the power to self-destruct the entire ship w/o additional "opinions". No second n command authorization was needed. She stifled the people under her command and rarely allowed them to do their jobs unimpeded.
Big Engineering situation? No Problem Janeway will be down there in a minute to tell everyone what to do. Big security situation? there's Janeway leading her Chief Security and the rest of the officers. Disagree with her? Find yourself in the Breg. She wasn't a Delegator but a Tyrant! Keep your damn Janeway.
Everyone knows Checkoty was 20X the leader she was and it was only later in the writing did they start making him an ass to stop embarrassing her.
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Gene Roddenberry was a hack. he stole all the ideas for Star Trek TOS from Harlan Ellison, who wrote the original treatment for the series and the backdrop for it.
ROddenberry didnt even get THAT right, as he took some of the better ideas away replacing them with the campy shit we ended up with. dude was so hard to work with he was forced out from TOS! he had NOTHING to do with the 3rd season of TOS.
Harve Bennett deserves the credit for Wrath Of Khan (which Roddenberry HATED) and the movies that followed it. the execs a Paramount HAD to get rid of Roddenberry because he was impossible to work with, ran way over their budget and had the idea to make the sequel about the Klingons stopping the Kennedy assassination.
Rick Berman, Gene Coon, David Gerrold, DC Fontana and Bob Justman among others deserve the credit for TNG's success, as it did a 180 degree turn from Roddenberry's vision of Starfleet NOT BEING a military organization. did you get that? Roddenberry had no clue that Starfleet was a military organization, and as the writers began to depict as such he went stark raving mad, sending hislawyer in to fuck with the wcript writing at every turn. they had to SAVE the series from him. the writers found Roddenberry to be so INEPT they QUIT EN MASSE, only to be lured back AFTER he died.
your saying Roddenberry laid out the story before he died is a complete lie. they did such an about face they put a blindfold over a bust of Roddenberry's head so it wouldnt see the departure from its creator's vision.
Roddenberry VOTED AGAINST Patrick Stewart being cast as Picard, and TRIED to get rid of him afterwards. if it wasnt for Corey Allen going behind Roddenberry's back we wouldve never had Patric Stewart as Picard. he treated him like shit the whole time they worked together.
i can go on and on.
the reality is: Roddenberry's passing was the best thing that happened to TNG and the following Star Trek shows. it turned into drama rather than camp. he wouldnt even let there be any conflict between the characters, because they had to be PERFECT. dude had SOME god ideas, and im not diminishing them, but he was FAR LESS involved with the successes and FAR MORE involved with the failures.
me...ignorant about sci-fi...
Ha Spins and Half-Truths!
I never felt like Sisko had a "ship" DS9 Wasn't a real ship.
He loses because of that. Not "his' fault; that's how it was written; he started as a Commander in rank and in duties (Station Commander) But you never get the "connection" with a VESSEL that you get with Kirk, Picard or Janeway. Those captains WERE their ships.
And don't try to say the Defiant was his; it wasnt the same.
Also by the way for Navy buffs when he was in the Defiant he actually had a HIGHER rank than Janeway or Picard or Kirk. A Captain (rank) in charge of a fleet is given the rank COMMODORE ( basically an hororary Admiral) That means he "flys" the commander flag from his ship - give orders for the fleet.
So a FLAG SHIP is NOT just the best biggest vessel; it's the ship the COMMODORE happens to be on. If he is on the smallest ship they've got it is STILL the FLAG SHIP. why? because it the ship that issues the commands. They usually take the best vessel ; but his FLAG follows were he(she) goes.
By the way the BEST of the series was DS9 by far. But that alone doesnt make Sisko the greatest Captain. When the Borg attack and have and alliance with the Romulans and the Duras family has taken over the Klingon empire I want to be in Janeway's ship...
He loses because of that. Not "his' fault; that's how it was written; he started as a Commander in rank and in duties (Station Commander) But you never get the "connection" with a VESSEL that you get with Kirk, Picard or Janeway. Those captains WERE their ships.
And don't try to say the Defiant was his; it wasnt the same.
Also by the way for Navy buffs when he was in the Defiant he actually had a HIGHER rank than Janeway or Picard or Kirk. A Captain (rank) in charge of a fleet is given the rank COMMODORE ( basically an hororary Admiral) That means he "flys" the commander flag from his ship - give orders for the fleet.
So a FLAG SHIP is NOT just the best biggest vessel; it's the ship the COMMODORE happens to be on. If he is on the smallest ship they've got it is STILL the FLAG SHIP. why? because it the ship that issues the commands. They usually take the best vessel ; but his FLAG follows were he(she) goes.
By the way the BEST of the series was DS9 by far. But that alone doesnt make Sisko the greatest Captain. When the Borg attack and have and alliance with the Romulans and the Duras family has taken over the Klingon empire I want to be in Janeway's ship...
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Ha Spins and Half-Truths!
what's that i smell?
oh...its BULLSHIT.
anyway, hate to be the spoiler, but the truth is the truth.
Gene took credit for shit he never did and fell victim to his own hype.
TNG began to win peabody and Hugo awards after he stopped messing with the formula.
it is what it is.
i didnt know some of the knowledge you dropped but clearly every time control of star trek was taken from gene it got better and this is coming from a huge trek fan when he lost control of the film franchise it got better when he lost control of tng it got a thousand times better
bump
Good thread. I came in here basically 100% in agreement with the thread title, but some surprisingly good support for Janeway made me pause to reconsider.
Both of them had to deal with situations that went beyond the normal call of duty. Both of them had to throw Star fleet regulations out the door a lot. Sisko usually had to deal with the ramifications of those decisions. It's not clear if Janeway ever did.
Still no question in my mind that DS9 was far and away the best show and story line. The main reason being that DS9 writers couldn't utilize the reset button for DS9 episodes like they could for ship based series. Also I think the main supporting cast as a whole was better.
TOS had Spock, TNG had Data, VOyager had Seven of Nine and the Doctor. All of these were better individual roles than any one person on DS9. However, I think the collective of Kira, Dax, Rom, Odo, Bashir, Quark, Jake, Garak killed any other Trek supporting cast. Even TNG re-treads Worf and O-Brian were put to better use on DS9.
Even DS9 villains were memorable, Weyoun, Gul Dakat, Eddington were persistently a thorn in Sisko's side. Hell dealing with Kai Wynn should make people appreciate Sisko more.
Both of them had to deal with situations that went beyond the normal call of duty. Both of them had to throw Star fleet regulations out the door a lot. Sisko usually had to deal with the ramifications of those decisions. It's not clear if Janeway ever did.
Still no question in my mind that DS9 was far and away the best show and story line. The main reason being that DS9 writers couldn't utilize the reset button for DS9 episodes like they could for ship based series. Also I think the main supporting cast as a whole was better.
TOS had Spock, TNG had Data, VOyager had Seven of Nine and the Doctor. All of these were better individual roles than any one person on DS9. However, I think the collective of Kira, Dax, Rom, Odo, Bashir, Quark, Jake, Garak killed any other Trek supporting cast. Even TNG re-treads Worf and O-Brian were put to better use on DS9.
Even DS9 villains were memorable, Weyoun, Gul Dakat, Eddington were persistently a thorn in Sisko's side. Hell dealing with Kai Wynn should make people appreciate Sisko more.
Everything you wrote was wrong and full of misinformation. Seriously, are you just making stuff up? In many ways, Janeway was very motherly and protective of her crew. This was especially true with her younger crew members, such as 7 of 9, and Harry Kim. But she was not a bully. She was persistent, but she was intelligent enough to bend when she had to.
Chakotay was her second in command and she relied on him, and trusted his opinion. For example, when they had to choose a chief engineer against her better judgement she choose B'Elanna Torres because Chakotay highly recommended her. From season to season, as their relationship grew, she considered him more, or less, her equal.
Speaking of B'Elanna Torres, when did Janeway ever override her on technical matters? Sure, she would regularly visit engineering, and even offer advice during problems. However, I cannot name one episode where Janeway superseded Torres on an engineering matter. She knew that Torres knew more than her on engineering matters, and other than offering advice she deferred to B'Elanna's judgement.
Chakotay was her lifeline. She listened to him, and trusted and relied on him. Very, very, rarely, she would override him, but only when they had an irreconcilable difference of opinion. However, that was her prerogative and duty as captain.
I could go on, but I don't see the need. Simply put, you're misinformed and talking out of your ass.
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It's been a long time since I saw that episode. But if I remember it right, in an alternate universe an alternate Janeway destroyed Voyager because there was no way of saving it from invaders. However, by destroying that Voyager she ensured that the alternate universe Voyager had a chance to survive. In the alternate universe Harry Kim had died already.
So, as far as the clips you presented goes, your analogy about her not caring what others think is invalid. One Voyager sacrificed itself so that the other one could survive. Moreover, it's lonely in the chair: there are rare times when a Captain has to go with his/her instinct despite what subordinates think. But that has nothing to do with being a "bully."
Anybody that talks about star trek and starts in 1999 is just dumb....fukkn battlestar galactica generation
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Keep yapping more is coming. I've already proven my first point in whatever "universe" you wanna chose. If she's having a bad day, fuck it blow up the ship. No one elses input is required...PERIOD! That power in the hands of one individual is as bad as it gets
You didn't prove shit. Nobody on the crew disagreed with, or protested, her decision to blow up the ship. It was only the alternative universe's Voyager who tried to stop her. However, in destroying Voyager Janeway ensured the survival of the alternative universe's Voyager.
Janeway was not a tyrant: she was almost more of a mother figure than she was a captain. No rational person who watched the show would say that she didn't love, and care for, her crew. For her to blow up the ship proves how dire the situation was. C'mon man, you're making weak ass arguments.
You didn't prove shit. Nobody on the crew disagreed with, or protested, her decision to blow up the ship. It was only the alternative universe's Voyager who tried to stop her. However, in destroying Voyager Janeway ensured the survival of the alternative universe's Voyager.
Janeway was not a tyrant: she was almost more of a mother figure than she was a captain. No rational person who watched the show would say that she didn't love, and care for, her crew. For her to blow up the ship proves how dire the situation was. C'mon man, you're making weak ass arguments.
If that's all you can come back with, I'll take it as an acknowledgement of how flawed, and uninformed, your reasoning is.
Yo, no need to get emotional man. You need the mother figure and Janeway is your surrogate, I get it! I'm grown and that crew is grown we could do without the squalling and micromanaging. I won't pick on Janeway anymore and because you're interested here my list:
1) Picard
2) Sisko
3) Archer
4) James T. Kirk
5) JANEWAY
You mean the chick that was lost in space, got her spaceship jacked and then was abandoned along with her crew on some strange planet? That Janeway?
If that simpleton had made back home, Star Fleet would've court martialed her dumb ass on her stupidity alone. Her dying was a fitting end.
Yo, no need to get emotional man. You need the mother figure and Janeway is your surrogate, I get it! I'm grown and that crew is grown we could do without the squalling and micromanaging. I won't pick on Janeway anymore and because you're interested here my list:
1) Picard
2) Sisko
3) Archer
4) James T. Kirk
5) JANEWAY
Nobody is emotional. Secondly, the motherly comment was only meant to prove that she would not sacrifice her crew, or her ship, capriciously. Lastly, again, you keep talking about all of this "proof." Yet, without providing any you quit the argument. The only way to interpret your last two replies is that you're uninformed and incapable of substantiating your very, very, weak argument.
You mean the chick that was lost in space, got her spaceship jacked and then was abandoned along with her crew on some strange planet? That Janeway?
If that simpleton had made back home, Star Fleet would've court martialed her dumb ass on her stupidity alone. Her dying was a fitting end.
Damn.
Et tu Brutus? She wasn't "lost in space." She knew how to get home, she was just very, very, far away. And she did get her crew home, and when she did she was awarded the rank of Admiral. Moreover, she managed to get her crew home with a far higher survivor rate than Kirk, or Picard.
Damn, didn't know there was all this Janeway hate on the bored. Must be male chauvinism.
Damn.
She wasn't "lost in space." She knew how to get home, she was just very, very, far away. And she did get her crew home, and when she did she was awarded the rank of Admiral. Moreover, she managed to get her crew home with a far higher survivor rate than Kirk, or Picard.
Damn, didn't know there was all this Janeway hate on the bored. Must be male chauvinism.
Ya Know...
Watching those scenes that Tical posted of Janeway reminded me of how formidable an actress Kate Mulgrew was on that series.
My only reason for initially liking that character was because of the "Katherine Hepburn qualities" she had.
And I totally forgot about the Alternate Harry Kim and that baby.
But I felt that the producers never addressed that situation probably after it was done (to my recollection anyway).
Watching those scenes that Tical posted of Janeway reminded me of how formidable an actress Kate Mulgrew was on that series.
My only reason for initially liking that character was because of the "Katherine Hepburn qualities" she had.
And I totally forgot about the Alternate Harry Kim and that baby.
But I felt that the producers never addressed that situation probably after it was done (to my recollection anyway).
1) Picard
2) Sisko
3) Kirk
4) Janeway
5) Archer
Picard could have been turned into a "Q" ( a god like figure and turned that shit down). Also him and his crew shut down the BORG, without any other alpha quardrant allies.
2) Sisko
3) Kirk
4) Janeway
5) Archer
Picard could have been turned into a "Q" ( a god like figure and turned that shit down). Also him and his crew shut down the BORG, without any other alpha quardrant allies.
Janeway Killed the Borg Queen, thus ending the Borg. But whatever.
for me its
1) Picard and Sisko they were too great captain in my book and its like splitting hair trying to see who is better. they were both that good period.
then its
2) Kirk
sure some of thew writing in the TOS was crazy what he did to get out of a jam but in the movies it showed how outside the box Kirk was. that ship to ship fight in Trek2
the tactical fight in that nebula with no radar and shit.
3) Janeway
outside federation space with no help, in the wild west part of space. Lose her ship got it back beat the breaks off the borg and got every one home. great in my book.
4) Archer
I feel bad for him cause he would have had a higher place on my list but the powers that be shited on his show. but I give him props for doing things alone. no other ship to call for back up, just him and his crew and there brains to get them self out of trouble.
5)(jj) Kirk
ok the first movie I took it as since his father wasn't there kirk became an ass, and at the end of that first movie he look like he would mold in to the kirk we knew 2nd movie hit and I know now that star fleet is run by a 2 month baby. top still have this dick running around with there most advance ship. at least old kirk had a plan. A chaotic plan but an unorthodox plan to get shit done. this ninja will get every one killed 
I like the look of the new trek vers but this dumb bullshit can't fly with me jj. next movie or the forth coming Tv show better step it up. if they though Roddenberry was mad at what they were doing to TNG he is doing hurricane kicks in his grave at what JJ has done to the Trek now
1) Picard and Sisko they were too great captain in my book and its like splitting hair trying to see who is better. they were both that good period.
then its
2) Kirk
sure some of thew writing in the TOS was crazy what he did to get out of a jam but in the movies it showed how outside the box Kirk was. that ship to ship fight in Trek2
the tactical fight in that nebula with no radar and shit.
3) Janeway
outside federation space with no help, in the wild west part of space. Lose her ship got it back beat the breaks off the borg and got every one home. great in my book.
4) Archer
I feel bad for him cause he would have had a higher place on my list but the powers that be shited on his show. but I give him props for doing things alone. no other ship to call for back up, just him and his crew and there brains to get them self out of trouble.
5)(jj) Kirk
ok the first movie I took it as since his father wasn't there kirk became an ass, and at the end of that first movie he look like he would mold in to the kirk we knew
2nd movie hit and I know now that star fleet is run by a 2 month baby. top still have this dick running around with there most advance ship. at least old kirk had a plan. A chaotic plan but an unorthodox plan to get shit done. this ninja will get every one killed I like the look of the new trek vers but this dumb bullshit can't fly with me jj. next movie or the forth coming Tv show better step it up. if they though Roddenberry was mad at what they were doing to TNG he is doing hurricane kicks in his grave at what JJ has done to the Trek now
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