Fear and Looting in America: Is President Obama a Financial Wimp?

thoughtone

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BGOL Investor
source: Huffington Post

NYT columnist Joe Nocera believes that Obama won't achieve Roosevelt's greatness unless he is willing "to make some bankers mad."

• Kevin Baker, writing in Harper's, also sees the conflict-averse Obama more like Hoover than like Roosevelt, as he moves "prudently, carefully and reasonably toward disaster."

• The banking lobbyists are busy undermining Obama's financial consumer protection agency by proudly defending our inalienable right to be duped by the mortgage broker of our choice.

• Meanwhile, Democratic and Republic party conservatives and moderates fret about European socialism as well as the impact of increased regulations on "financial innovation" -- the very kind that just sent us over the cliff.

The only thing everyone seems to agree upon is that Larry Summers should become the next ambassador to Somalia.

If there is anything like a consensus among thoughtful folks it goes like this:

Financial Consumer Protection Agency: Good -- assuming it doesn't get watered down by the flood of bank lobbyists filling the halls Congress at this very moment.

Controlling Derivatives: Bad -- because the reforms don't provide tight control on the custom designed financial products that caused all the havoc in the economy.

Regulating Too Big to Fail: Ugly -- for leaving the large financial institutions in place rather than busting them down to size so they no longer are too big too fail.

Wall Street Salaries and Bonuses: Priceless -- for bankers because there's nothing in the reform package that will stop bankers from paying themselves a fortune as soon as they can book some fictitious profits.

The battle is quickly devolving into endless discussions about whether or not the Treasury or the Fed should be in charge of this or that function; whether the S.E.C. (which couldn't spot the $65 billion Madoff scam) is up to the task; whether there are too many or too few regulators; and so on. It will all sound like it really matters: It doesn't. As I've tried to argue as forcefully as possible in The Looting of America there are only two important yardsticks for measuring real financial reforms:

1. Are we doing something about the obscenely narrow distribution of wealth that led directly to the crisis -- a concentration of wealth that is and will continue to wreck country?

2. Are we reducing the size of the bloated financial sector and moving capital to the real economy?

By these two criteria, Obama, Congress and even most of their progressive critics are in trouble. They seem to be afraid that Joe the Plumber will call them Marxists if they advocate reigning in our 400 billionaires (who collectively have accumulated $1.56 trillion). But plumbers are in very short supply among the top 300,000 elites who have as much income per year as the bottom 150 million Americans (a ratio of 1:500). Most of the public understands that there's absolutely no justification for building an economy that caters to these "economic royalists" (as Roosevelt put it) at the expense of the rest of us, especially when this concentration of wealth is a recipe for financial chaos.

We've just lived through a case study of what happens when income gets stuck in the hands of the few: it fuels a fantasy finance casino on Wall Street. It wasn't just Roosevelt's great financial reforms that did the trick. The Depression and then WWII greatly compressed the income gap. There just wasn't as much money floating around at the top to fund the casino. That compressed income distribution remained intact until Reagan unleashed the rich with tax cuts, widespread deregulations, and labor-bashing. That initiated the fantasy finance party that gave us the savings and loan fiasco, merger mania, the dot-com bubble and bust, the housing-and-derivative bubble, and then the great fantasy finance crash of 2008.

Also, there's nothing in the proposed reforms or in most of the critiques that really would move money out of the financial sector. Financial firms recently accounted for nearly 30 percent of all profits and a quarter of the GDP. The financial sector has nearly as many employees as manufacturing. Even now it has a low unemployment rate (4.9 percent), especially when compared to the rest of the economy (9.4 percent). We cannot thrive or even survive in an economy that only moves money around instead of producing tangible goods and services. The entire financial sector is a structural bubble still waiting to be punctured.

It would have helped greatly if Obama and his liberal critics had signaled their support for Rep Peter Defazio's bill to place a small excise tax on each and every financial transaction. It also would have helped if we had an across-the-board wage cap on all financial employees -- a President's Wage Cap where no one in the financial sector would earn more than the President of the US. After all, in a myriad of ways the entire sector is now on the federal dole.

From Krugman to Obama, everyone agrees that we need to take the swashbuckling adventure out of finance and once again make it so dull that it just provides financial support for a vibrant real economy, instead of high stakes gambling. The best way to do that is to cap those compensation packages, which is sure to send the best and the brightest scurrying into other, more lucrative fields.

Finally, if we want to learn form Roosevelt and the New Deal, we need to get past our obsession with personalities. Sure individuals matter and FDR was truly special, as is Obama. But ideas and movements matter more. Roosevelt was always looking over his left shoulder at forces and ideas that sought to reign in or even replace capitalism. He would be the first to tell us that if there's no progressive mobilized opposition and no coherent alternative to share with the public, it really doesn't matter if we replace Geithner with Krugman
 

nittie

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Those people are stuck in the past, President Obama is about the future. Revolutions are going on everywhere as the old status quo crumbles. All the president has to do is get us out of the Middle East and let change take its course.
 

Cruise

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Those people are stuck in the past, President Obama is about the future. Revolutions are going on everywhere as the old status quo crumbles. All the president has to do is get us out of the Middle East and let change take its course.

That is mightily irresponsible.

There are hundreds (thousands?) of years of history that show when you put too many resources in the financial sector and not the real economy, disaster always results.

From Ramesses to Rome to Russia, from Babylon to Banks, from Athens to America.

Over and over and over. When you have a society dominated by money changers and not producers, it's headed for disaster.

This stuff doesn't just fix itself. It never has and never will. The people at the top are not going to just step aside. You have to fight them.

Otherwise, they will destroy everything and everyone to keep their place.

Either Obama doesn't understand this or is part of it or is unwilling to change it.

It will be his downfall.
 

BigUnc

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huh????.....cap wages on all financial sector employees?.....if they do that smart people won't go into the financial sector,..... oh wait a minute thats what the writer wants, to force the best and brightest into other fields?...Okaaayy, wouldn't that just leave the worst and dimmest to manage the finances of the country.

The writer started out the gate fast but his 2 point solution is...is.....ummm.......dumb.
 

Cruise

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huh????.....cap wages on all financial sector employees?.....if they do that smart people won't go into the financial sector,..... oh wait a minute thats what the writer wants, to force the best and brightest into other fields?...Okaaayy, wouldn't that just leave the worst and dimmest to manage the finances of the country.

The writer started out the gate fast but his 2 point solution is...is.....ummm.......dumb.

Do you understand the financial sector is not real.

You can't eat a debit card.
You can't live in a mortgage.
You can't drive a lease.
You can't wear a loan.

The financial sector does not create wealth. It moves it around or consumes it or both.
It does not create prosperity.
It does not create knowledge.
It does not create abundance.

Manufacturing, Agriculture, Trade, and R&D create wealth. That is why they REQUIRE high levels of capitalization.

The financial sector creates no wealth, so it requires VERY LOW levels of capitalization.

The only purpose of the financial sector is to facilitate trade. If your financial sector is bigger than your trade sector (has more capital), it means it is choking or preventing trade and makes the country poorer (like today).

This misallocation of resources to the financial sector is destroying the economic future (and present) of this country.
 

BigUnc

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Do you understand the financial sector is not real.

You can't eat a debit card.
You can't live in a mortgage.
You can't drive a lease.
You can't wear a loan.

The financial sector does not create wealth. It moves it around or consumes it or both.
It does not create prosperity.
It does not create knowledge.
It does not create abundance.

Manufacturing, Agriculture, Trade, and R&D create wealth. That is why they REQUIRE high levels of capitalization.

The financial sector creates no wealth, so it requires VERY LOW levels of capitalization.

The only purpose of the financial sector is to facilitate trade. If your financial sector is bigger than your trade sector (has more capital), it means it is choking or preventing trade and makes the country poorer (like today).

This misallocation of resources to the financial sector is destroying the economic future (and present) of this country.

Sure I do. Seems as though you don't understand any society need financial services to keep the books straight and to provide a means for society to conduct business among other critical services.They should, as in any sector, be compensated for what their talents can get for providing those services.

You claim some mis allocation of resources as though society, after careful deliberation, decided what resources they would get.

I didn't say this in my previous post but when people start to publicly advocate what the compensation should be for certain job classes they are getting too close to the socialism concept IMO.

Hmmmm I wonder what the writer thinks his maximum compensation should be?...What do you believe should be the cap on what you can earn in your job class?......just asking
 

nittie

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Originally Posted by Cruise

That is mightily irresponsible.

There are hundreds (thousands?) of years of history that show when you put too many resources in the financial sector and not the real economy, disaster always results.

From Ramesses to Rome to Russia, from Babylon to Banks, from Athens to America.

Over and over and over. When you have a society dominated by money changers and not producers, it's headed for disaster.

This stuff doesn't just fix itself. It never has and never will. The people at the top are not going to just step aside. You have to fight them.

Otherwise, they will destroy everything and everyone to keep their place.

Either Obama doesn't understand this or is part of it or is unwilling to change it.

It will be his downfall.


The days of money changers are coming to a end. Along with their top down way of doing things. Revolution is going on in every corner of the globe. Obama doesn't have to fight them, their days are numbered, if he can undo the mess in the Middle East change will take its course. That doesn't mean it will start with America, people in India, Africa, Asia are developing new ways of governing and sharing wealth.
 

Cruise

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Sure I do. Seems as though you don't understand any society need financial services to keep the books straight and to provide a means for society to conduct business among other critical services.They should, as in any sector, be compensated for what their talents can get for providing those services.

You claim some mis allocation of resources as though society, after careful deliberation, decided what resources they would get.

I didn't say this in my previous post but when people start to publicly advocate what the compensation should be for certain job classes they are getting too close to the socialism concept IMO.

Hmmmm I wonder what the writer thinks his maximum compensation should be?...What do you believe should be the cap on what you can earn in your job class?......just asking

My point is that financial services, in today's society, is a giant price-fixing scheme. Its size creates disruptions in trade and interference in commerce.

When financial services begin to dominate a society's productive capacity (like it did in Ancient Babylon, Greece, Rome, China, Italy, France, Britain, and now the US), it leads to bankruptcy, collapse, and revolution.

As a society spends more of its time in the fantasy world of finance, and less in the real world of manufacture/agriculture/production, it leads to the eventual collapse of the society due to its inability to feed (with REAL FOOD) and defend (with REAL supplies) itself. This is seen in HIGH unemployment, extreme disparities in wealth, a HUGE government bureaucracy, and increasing restrictions on personal liberties and property.

In other words, a large financial services industry is a sign of doom. Prepare yourself, because it's coming.

My point is... forget about salaries, these people shouldn't have a job!

The days of money changers are coming to a end. Along with their top down way of doing things. Revolution is going on in every corner of the globe. Obama doesn't have to fight them, their days are numbered, if he can undo the mess in the Middle East change will take its course. That doesn't mean it will start with America, people in India, Africa, Asia are developing new ways of governing and sharing wealth.

I personally believe money changers will always be with us. But, you may be right about their top down approach, revolution, and the rest of the world.

Obama needs to get out in front of this and start the unwinding of the financial system. But, he seems more intent in keeping this behemoth standing than doing the prudent thing and putting it out of its misery.
 

BigUnc

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My point is that financial services, in today's society, is a giant price-fixing scheme. Its size creates disruptions in trade and interference in commerce.

When financial services begin to dominate a society's productive capacity (like it did in Ancient Babylon, Greece, Rome, China, Italy, France, Britain, and now the US), it leads to bankruptcy, collapse, and revolution.

As a society spends more of its time in the fantasy world of finance, and less in the real world of manufacture/agriculture/production, it leads to the eventual collapse of the society due to its inability to feed (with REAL FOOD) and defend (with REAL supplies) itself. This is seen in HIGH unemployment, extreme disparities in wealth, a HUGE government bureaucracy, and increasing restrictions on personal liberties and property.

In other words, a large financial services industry is a sign of doom. Prepare yourself, because it's coming.

My point is... forget about salaries, these people shouldn't have a job!



I personally believe money changers will always be with us. But, you may be right about their top down approach, revolution, and the rest of the world.

Obama needs to get out in front of this and start the unwinding of the financial system. But, he seems more intent in keeping this behemoth standing than doing the prudent thing and putting it out of its misery.


What type of system are you advocating?.....cash and carry only...barter?....everybody keep their money in mattresses?...no loans for home purchases?...no capital loans for plant improvement?.....no lines of credit for large purchases such as cars, furniture, fridges, washer and dryer, big screens and other consumer electronics, vacations and whatever else people demand these type of services for.

What else?....no investing for a persons retirement?.....no investing on a new invention......btw where do you suggest the capital for all this manufacturing, agriculture and production would come from?.....the government?

There's a gaping void in your description on how you plan on accomplishing this trifecta of manufacturing,agriculture and production without financial services.
 

nittie

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What type of system are you advocating?.....cash and carry only...barter?....everybody keep their money in mattresses?...no loans for home purchases?...no capital loans for plant improvement?.....no lines of credit for large purchases such as cars, furniture, fridges, washer and dryer, big screens and other consumer electronics, vacations and whatever else people demand these type of services for.

What else?....no investing for a persons retirement?.....no investing on a new invention......btw where do you suggest the capital for all this manufacturing, agriculture and production would come from?.....the government?

There's a gaping void in your description on how you plan on accomplishing this trifecta of manufacturing,agriculture and production without financial services.

Exactly...do away with all of it. In a world as rich as ours everyone should have a birthright that guarantees a place to live, food to eat and a comfortable retirement. Just like the Clintons, Bushs, Obamas and all the other rich kids.
 

BigUnc

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Exactly...do away with all of it. In a world as rich as ours everyone should have a birthright that guarantees a place to live, food to eat and a comfortable retirement. Just like the Clintons, Bushs, Obamas and all the other rich kids.



Please describe in detail the system that is going to accomplish this goal.

I'm not interested in we'll tell you after the revolution.

Let me know now.
 

Cruise

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What type of system are you advocating?.....cash and carry only...barter?....everybody keep their money in mattresses?...no loans for home purchases?...no capital loans for plant improvement?.....no lines of credit for large purchases such as cars, furniture, fridges, washer and dryer, big screens and other consumer electronics, vacations and whatever else people demand these type of services for.

What else?....no investing for a persons retirement?.....no investing on a new invention......btw where do you suggest the capital for all this manufacturing, agriculture and production would come from?.....the government?

There's a gaping void in your description on how you plan on accomplishing this trifecta of manufacturing,agriculture and production without financial services.

The same way it was done in the first 150 years of this country (and is still done in the rest of the world). Many countries in Europe don't have oversized financial services sectors, yet provide pensions, health care, education, and social security without the crushing personal debt financial services places on Americans in the United States.

Corporations finance themselves through earnings (not mergers, leveraged buyouts, or bank credit).

There was a time, when companies actually paid dividends because they didn't have to compete with companies using imaginary bank credit, so they could generate profits.

Financial services drains so much profit and gain from the economy, everyone has to go into debt to get anything done. This leads to HUGE barriers to entry into the marketplace and excludes everyone who doesn't have access to bank credit.

You end up with just a few companies or groups of people owning all the means of production and everyone else suffering.

That's not normal (nor sustainable). A large financial services sector is a BAD sign for a country's economic health.
 

BigUnc

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The same way it was done in the first 150 years of this country (and is still done in the rest of the world). Many countries in Europe don't have oversized financial services sectors, yet provide pensions, health care, education, and social security without the crushing personal debt financial services places on Americans in the United States.

Corporations finance themselves through earnings (not mergers, leveraged buyouts, or bank credit).

There was a time, when companies actually paid dividends because they didn't have to compete with companies using imaginary bank credit, so they could generate profits.

Financial services drains so much profit and gain from the economy, everyone has to go into debt to get anything done. This leads to HUGE barriers to entry into the marketplace and excludes everyone who doesn't have access to bank credit.

You end up with just a few companies or groups of people owning all the means of production and everyone else suffering.

That's not normal (nor sustainable). A large financial services sector is a BAD sign for a country's economic health.


ok big is bad and your solution is to fire everybody. then say go back to a time in the past where everything worked perfectly.History says there never was this nirvana in the United States. history says it's been a cycle of boom and bust. some big some not so big. This country has always had a financial services sector, always will have one. The countries you mentioned have one, maybe not exactly like this country but one where the differences are minuscule.

I'm sure you know Europe has been having just as bad a time as this country for the same exact reasons. Just read an AP article saying England has to decide where to cut it's Military. Choices are get rid of it's nuclear weapons, cut back on troop deployments in Afghanistan or some combination of the 2.

So what is the advantage of going to the system they have over there if it is just as vulnerable as this one.

Like it or not this is a consumer driven economy. Put a stake in the heart of the consumer and sales would plummet. Then there wouldn't be a need for all the manufacturing capacity we have cause who has $30,000 cash, in their pocket, to purchase a car.

How about we start with something we all can agree on. A real effort to get rid of the waste, abuse, mismanagement and fraud in government operations. Not just in social programs but everywhere in government. After a few years of that whatever savings would be put into accomplishing healthcare for the most vulnerable . Beginning with children and elderly that do not have the means to provide it for themselves. All other adults of sound mind and body would play in the private for profit insurance marketplace.

This would be just the beginning salvo toward a compromise solution. What to do with those adults that refuse participate would be one issue.

Let me say that my humanity does have it's limits. I'm not completely opposed to letting them wither on the vine if they refuse to step up.
 

nittie

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Please describe in detail the system that is going to accomplish this goal.

I'm not interested in we'll tell you after the revolution.

Let me know now.


You're missing the point BigUnc. It's not for me to describe the new system it's for us. Thats what the revolutions are about, a world without someone telling people what they can and cannot have, what they can and cannot do. True freedom, the kind given to all people by our maker or nature if you want to call it that. So think of the kind of world you want to live in and find other people you can work with to make it happen. We don't need leaders anymore. McCain didn't have to suspend his campaign so HE can save the economy and we don't need Hillary answering the phone at 3:00 am.
 

Cruise

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ok big is bad and your solution is to fire everybody. then say go back to a time in the past where everything worked perfectly.History says there never was this nirvana in the United States. history says it's been a cycle of boom and bust. some big some not so big. This country has always had a financial services sector, always will have one. The countries you mentioned have one, maybe not exactly like this country but one where the differences are minuscule.

Boom/bust cycles are a consequence of financial manipulation.

If resources are fixed, labor and land are fixed, and technology is improving, why are there ever bust cycles?

Because financial services siphons so much abundance from the economy, it eventually starves the economy. As the financial services sector realizes it is starving its very livelihood, it stops siphoning so much. This allows the economy to recover and generate abundance again. But it takes time and creates a lot of waste (unemployment, idle eqiupment & machinery, fallow land, etc.).

Once the economy gets going again, financial services siphons again, and the process repeats. Hence, a boom/bust cycle exists and it is completely artificial.

Unfortunately, this process cannot continue forever. Each disruption leads to more and more waste. Eventually, the waste becomes so great, the economy cannot recover. It's all due to financial services siphoning.

This leads to revolution (American, French, British, Russian, etc.) or collapse (Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Chinese, etc.).

My solution is to dismantle the current financial services system and move to a competitive currency model.

Of course, the honkeys would never want that, because it means they would have to actually work for a living. :rolleyes:

I'm sure you know Europe has been having just as bad a time as this country for the same exact reasons. Just read an AP article saying England has to decide where to cut it's Military. Choices are get rid of it's nuclear weapons, cut back on troop deployments in Afghanistan or some combination of the 2.

So what is the advantage of going to the system they have over there if it is just as vulnerable as this one.

Like it or not this is a consumer driven economy. Put a stake in the heart of the consumer and sales would plummet. Then there wouldn't be a need for all the manufacturing capacity we have cause who has $30,000 cash, in their pocket, to purchase a car.

How about we start with something we all can agree on. A real effort to get rid of the waste, abuse, mismanagement and fraud in government operations. Not just in social programs but everywhere in government. After a few years of that whatever savings would be put into accomplishing healthcare for the most vulnerable . Beginning with children and elderly that do not have the means to provide it for themselves. All other adults of sound mind and body would play in the private for profit insurance marketplace.

This would be just the beginning salvo toward a compromise solution. What to do with those adults that refuse participate would be one issue.

Let me say that my humanity does have it's limits. I'm not completely opposed to letting them wither on the vine if they refuse to step up.

I don't advocate moving to a European model. My only point is that the American economic system is neither the best nor the only one possible. In fact, the American system has led to disaster for its citizens and the economy.

There are better ways, but the financial services sector wants to fight alternatives and progress that doesn't include their leeching and inefficiency.

You're missing the point BigUnc. It's not for me to describe the new system it's for us. Thats what the revolutions are about, a world without someone telling people what they can and cannot have, what they can and cannot do. True freedom, the kind given to all people by our maker or nature if you want to call it that. So think of the kind of world you want to live in and find other people you can work with to make it happen. We don't need leaders anymore. McCain didn't have to suspend his campaign so HE can save the economy and we don't need Hillary answering the phone at 3:00 am.

Now, this I like. :D
 

BigUnc

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You're missing the point BigUnc. It's not for me to describe the new system it's for us. Thats what the revolutions are about, a world without someone telling people what they can and cannot have, what they can and cannot do. True freedom, the kind given to all people by our maker or nature if you want to call it that. So think of the kind of world you want to live in and find other people you can work with to make it happen. We don't need leaders anymore. McCain didn't have to suspend his campaign so HE can save the economy and we don't need Hillary answering the phone at 3:00 am.

you left one person out the mix. So you don't need Obama either?

You want to call for a revolution that has no defining principle. Just fuck things up cause we can and then it's everybody for themselves revolution. Since after this revolution I'm free to do as I please, without restraint, it kinda sounds like some Mad Max, anarchist, post apocalyptic type society.

There has to be rules governing how people interact and basic standards of behavior. A common, fair value means to exchange goods and services. A mechanism to provide for the defense of the group from those that wish to do the group harm. If you don't you'll be on the other side of somebody else's revolution.

The idea of a revolution sounds perfectly logical.I'm not totally against it. The hard part is if the revolution succeeds.Do they have a workable plan for the aftermath. Are the revolutionaries ready to turn in their BDU's , weaponry,and battlefield strategy for suits, pens, and policy positions.
 

nittie

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you left one person out the mix. So you don't need Obama either?

You want to call for a revolution that has no defining principle. Just fuck things up cause we can and then it's everybody for themselves revolution. Since after this revolution I'm free to do as I please, without restraint, it kinda sounds like some Mad Max, anarchist, post apocalyptic type society.

There has to be rules governing how people interact and basic standards of behavior. A common, fair value means to exchange goods and services. A mechanism to provide for the defense of the group from those that wish to do the group harm. If you don't you'll be on the other side of somebody else's revolution.

The idea of a revolution sounds perfectly logical.I'm not totally against it. The hard part is if the revolution succeeds.Do they have a workable plan for the aftermath. Are the revolutionaries ready to turn in their BDU's , weaponry,and battlefield strategy for suits, pens, and policy positions.



Obama can be part of the solution. He's the one saying the status quo can't last. He's the one saying we need to end these up an down economic cycles. He's the one saying that We are in this together so I don't see how anything I said omits the Pres.

No one said you are free to do what you want. Labor is a part of life, don't work, don't eat. It's the distribution of wealth we're talking about. Not Mad Max but a common good that doesn't pit one against the other.

There has to be rules. The president seems to have the right resolve and demeanor like he understands the big picture. All movements have a way of being co-opted. It happened in America when business overtook the people, with civil rights when ministers co opted black business leaders, even with religion when Rome changed christianity. So it has to be done with eyes opened.


I don't know what would happen if revolution worked. Thats the fun part. Have to wait and see. Can't be worst than what we're dealing with now.
 

Lamarr

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The days of money changers are coming to a end. Along with their top down way of doing things. Revolution is going on in every corner of the globe. Obama doesn't have to fight them, their days are numbered, if he can undo the mess in the Middle East change will take its course. That doesn't mean it will start with America, people in India, Africa, Asia are developing new ways of governing and sharing wealth.

You will always have money changers, thats why they keep the people divided on race, class, gender, sexuality etc. As long as they keep the people distracted with BS, we will never identify them. These bankers work in silence all around the globe.

While it may seem a little far-fetched, I'm a beliver that bankers control societies through 3 mechanisms: G (gold) O (oil) D (drugs)

If you can bring this awareness to the streets, real change can come!
 

nittie

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You will always have money changers, thats why they keep the people divided on race, class, gender, sexuality etc. As long as they keep the people distracted with BS, we will never identify them. These bankers work in silence all around the globe.

While it may seem a little far-fetched, I'm a beliver that bankers control societies through 3 mechanisms: G (gold) O (oil) D (drugs)

If you can bring this awareness to the streets, real change can come!

You prolly right. There will always be money changers or people who play on people's kindness. The only way to stop it is re-writing the Bible, Torah and Koran. Make greed a capital offense.
 
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