Why are DC fans so angry at anyone who criticizes DC movies? (tical Pre Approved)
- Thread starter playahaitian
- Start date
One of the more precarious situations I've ever been in was in a place that should've been safe, but wasn't. That was built to bring joy to millions of people, but instead incited a blinding rage in hundreds. It's now known by a different name but it was Giants Stadium. And the event was a Philadelphia Eagles football game.
Yeah, I know. Sports. Bear with me.
Every one of the 40,000-plus people in that stadium was there because they loved football. They were fans. Attending a football game is too expensive to be idle about it. You have to love it. It just so happened that some of those fans chose — or, I'm sure some would claim, were chosen — to call themselves New York Giants fans while others were Eagles fans. Bordering states. The difference between those people was marginal at best. But if you put green jerseys on some and blue jerseys on others, stuff them into an open-air coliseum, and let them buy beer for two hours — you are going to have to call a lot of police.
Epithets will be hurled, fists will fly, blood will arc through the autumn air. Why? Because human beings are tribal beasts. We want to belong. We want to clad ourselves in the colors of our tribe and woe to any who choose other colors.
Tribalism. All too often based on arbitrary distinctions, especially when you're talking about entertainment.
Marvel vs. DC. Twenty years ago, it was just a discussion between nerds, nerds who had been collecting comics for decades and would hold imaginary bear vs. shark matches in bedrooms and dens — Batman vs. Iron Man, Deathstroke vs. The Punisher, Thor vs. Wonder Woman — while lamenting the fact that we'd never see those heroes on the big screen, not the way they should be. Stan Lee would refer to DC as the "distinguished competition" in public, while likely saving the harsher language for behind closed doors, while editors gamed out how to steal market share.
Then came the movies. The big movies. Fox's X-Men films. Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. Kevin Feige's Marvel Cinematic Universe. Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and Justice League.
Hundreds of millions spent to produce. Tens of billions of dollars in revenue. Hollywood reformatted itself to favor characters instead of movie stars. And no characters are more important than superheroes.
Instead of being happy at this frankly astonishing development — we were seeing long-dismissed dreams come true — some fans were furious. Because tribalism is an inescapable son of a bitch.
Now, that stadium that barely contained the rage-fire rivalry of spectators was called "the internet." And instead of it being alcohol that dropped inhibitions and blurred common sense, it was anonymity.
Marvel fans were happy, for the most part. Sure, many of the big characters couldn't appear on screen together — thanks to Stan Lee having strip-mined Marvel's IP and sold much of it off, piecemeal, all over Hollywood — but once Iron Man took off and plotted a course towards The Avengers, it didn't matter. What was to be unhappy about, after all? After Avengers made $1.5 billion, we were never going to stop getting Marvel movies — even if every couple are only so-so.
But DC die-hards evolved… differently. They had their Batman done as well as anyone could do Batman. Nolan's trilogy made $2.4 billion around the world. It won Oscars. The Dark Knight especially remains beloved; a high-water mark that no other comic book film has yet touched.
Nolan's (and Warner Bros.') handpicked torchbearer, Zack Snyder, directed the three aforementioned films and produced two others — Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman — which make up the DC Extended Universe. To date, they've made $3.3 billion.
If you tell a Marvel fan that Thor: The Dark World kinda sucked and Iron Man 2was a sprawling, unfocused mess, they'll shrug and say, "Yeah, I kinda liked 'em. But you're right."
But if you go online and say similar things about Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman or Justice League, you'll be met with venom, hostility and, in some cases, legitimate death threats. If you point out that critics and fans — at least according to Rotten Tomatoes and CinemaScore, which measure such things — are divided on the quality of these films, you'll be called names as polite as "Marvel shill," and the tenor only goes downwards from there. And don't even mention the grosses. (For the record, Justice League, at $94 million domestic in its opening weekend, grossed almost $100 million less than Avengers: Age of Ultron in the same context — and a hair less than Wonder Woman, despite having six heroes to just the one.)
Now, there's no way to know if Marvel fans would be so drunk with rage if the MCU had floundered out of the gate the way the DCEU is. But there might be something in this: Much of the DC identity lay, especially in the wake of 1984's one-two smash of Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, in the idea that gritty was cool. Dark was the way forward.
(Never mind that Richard Donner's Superman is the foundation upon which all of this is built. "You'll believe a man can fly" might as well be "You'll believe a man can skulk.")
Marvel was always younger, jokier, poppier — Spider-Man's wisecracks; the X-Men's teen drama — while DC was none-more-black. When Tim Burton borrowed Frank Miller's pearls-scattering origin sequence, and in the process, became a genuine pop culture phenomenon, DC fans were thrilled. When Nolan leaned into the dark for his trilogy, they were ecstatic. Snyder picked up that ball and ran with it — right into a wall of mainstream audiences and critics who, perhaps, thought that the Man of Steel should spend less time in the shadows.
Maybe, just maybe, when the dark failed, the stalwart DC fan felt that anyone who tried to shine a light on why deserved whatever they got.
Tribalism is a shiny, beautiful double-edged sword. One stroke makes you feel at home with people who share your beliefs. It's where community comes from: Folks who can, together, push towards a common goal. The warm blanket of unity. But the other stroke brings its own kind of heat — a fury for anyone who doesn't agree. Who doesn't wear the right colors. Who doesn't toe the line and like the right stuff with the same full-throated cry.
Will DC and Warner Bros. find their footing? Maybe. Maybe not. I sure would like them to, because we're better off with the "distinguished competition" operating at the highest level. The rising tide lifts all boats. But a functioning fandom, like a functioning society, needs to be able to brook disagreements and embrace a plurality of opinions.
When you demand that everyone love what you love, in exactly the manner in which you love it, or suffer the consequences — real, lasting consequences — you've pushed past fandom and into fanaticism.
And a thing that was borne out of innocent childhood passion shouldn't be the cover for this much anger.
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-are-dc-movie-fans-so-angry-about-justice-league-criticism
Yeah, I know. Sports. Bear with me.
Every one of the 40,000-plus people in that stadium was there because they loved football. They were fans. Attending a football game is too expensive to be idle about it. You have to love it. It just so happened that some of those fans chose — or, I'm sure some would claim, were chosen — to call themselves New York Giants fans while others were Eagles fans. Bordering states. The difference between those people was marginal at best. But if you put green jerseys on some and blue jerseys on others, stuff them into an open-air coliseum, and let them buy beer for two hours — you are going to have to call a lot of police.
Epithets will be hurled, fists will fly, blood will arc through the autumn air. Why? Because human beings are tribal beasts. We want to belong. We want to clad ourselves in the colors of our tribe and woe to any who choose other colors.
Tribalism. All too often based on arbitrary distinctions, especially when you're talking about entertainment.
Marvel vs. DC. Twenty years ago, it was just a discussion between nerds, nerds who had been collecting comics for decades and would hold imaginary bear vs. shark matches in bedrooms and dens — Batman vs. Iron Man, Deathstroke vs. The Punisher, Thor vs. Wonder Woman — while lamenting the fact that we'd never see those heroes on the big screen, not the way they should be. Stan Lee would refer to DC as the "distinguished competition" in public, while likely saving the harsher language for behind closed doors, while editors gamed out how to steal market share.
Then came the movies. The big movies. Fox's X-Men films. Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. Kevin Feige's Marvel Cinematic Universe. Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and Justice League.
Hundreds of millions spent to produce. Tens of billions of dollars in revenue. Hollywood reformatted itself to favor characters instead of movie stars. And no characters are more important than superheroes.
Instead of being happy at this frankly astonishing development — we were seeing long-dismissed dreams come true — some fans were furious. Because tribalism is an inescapable son of a bitch.
Now, that stadium that barely contained the rage-fire rivalry of spectators was called "the internet." And instead of it being alcohol that dropped inhibitions and blurred common sense, it was anonymity.
Marvel fans were happy, for the most part. Sure, many of the big characters couldn't appear on screen together — thanks to Stan Lee having strip-mined Marvel's IP and sold much of it off, piecemeal, all over Hollywood — but once Iron Man took off and plotted a course towards The Avengers, it didn't matter. What was to be unhappy about, after all? After Avengers made $1.5 billion, we were never going to stop getting Marvel movies — even if every couple are only so-so.
But DC die-hards evolved… differently. They had their Batman done as well as anyone could do Batman. Nolan's trilogy made $2.4 billion around the world. It won Oscars. The Dark Knight especially remains beloved; a high-water mark that no other comic book film has yet touched.
Nolan's (and Warner Bros.') handpicked torchbearer, Zack Snyder, directed the three aforementioned films and produced two others — Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman — which make up the DC Extended Universe. To date, they've made $3.3 billion.
If you tell a Marvel fan that Thor: The Dark World kinda sucked and Iron Man 2was a sprawling, unfocused mess, they'll shrug and say, "Yeah, I kinda liked 'em. But you're right."
But if you go online and say similar things about Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman or Justice League, you'll be met with venom, hostility and, in some cases, legitimate death threats. If you point out that critics and fans — at least according to Rotten Tomatoes and CinemaScore, which measure such things — are divided on the quality of these films, you'll be called names as polite as "Marvel shill," and the tenor only goes downwards from there. And don't even mention the grosses. (For the record, Justice League, at $94 million domestic in its opening weekend, grossed almost $100 million less than Avengers: Age of Ultron in the same context — and a hair less than Wonder Woman, despite having six heroes to just the one.)
Now, there's no way to know if Marvel fans would be so drunk with rage if the MCU had floundered out of the gate the way the DCEU is. But there might be something in this: Much of the DC identity lay, especially in the wake of 1984's one-two smash of Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, in the idea that gritty was cool. Dark was the way forward.
(Never mind that Richard Donner's Superman is the foundation upon which all of this is built. "You'll believe a man can fly" might as well be "You'll believe a man can skulk.")
Marvel was always younger, jokier, poppier — Spider-Man's wisecracks; the X-Men's teen drama — while DC was none-more-black. When Tim Burton borrowed Frank Miller's pearls-scattering origin sequence, and in the process, became a genuine pop culture phenomenon, DC fans were thrilled. When Nolan leaned into the dark for his trilogy, they were ecstatic. Snyder picked up that ball and ran with it — right into a wall of mainstream audiences and critics who, perhaps, thought that the Man of Steel should spend less time in the shadows.
Maybe, just maybe, when the dark failed, the stalwart DC fan felt that anyone who tried to shine a light on why deserved whatever they got.
Tribalism is a shiny, beautiful double-edged sword. One stroke makes you feel at home with people who share your beliefs. It's where community comes from: Folks who can, together, push towards a common goal. The warm blanket of unity. But the other stroke brings its own kind of heat — a fury for anyone who doesn't agree. Who doesn't wear the right colors. Who doesn't toe the line and like the right stuff with the same full-throated cry.
Will DC and Warner Bros. find their footing? Maybe. Maybe not. I sure would like them to, because we're better off with the "distinguished competition" operating at the highest level. The rising tide lifts all boats. But a functioning fandom, like a functioning society, needs to be able to brook disagreements and embrace a plurality of opinions.
When you demand that everyone love what you love, in exactly the manner in which you love it, or suffer the consequences — real, lasting consequences — you've pushed past fandom and into fanaticism.
And a thing that was borne out of innocent childhood passion shouldn't be the cover for this much anger.
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-are-dc-movie-fans-so-angry-about-justice-league-criticism
DC is stubborn and their road map doesn't make any sense. Yeah, we know they are not Marvel, but we don't know what their vision is. MOS was a movie i actually enjoyed. WW was cool. But SS and BVS were total crap. Justice League was ok, but the story sucked. DC just can't get right. And the potential is there. They clearly have better stories than Marvel and better villains, But they are scared to take a chance. And not to mention, that dumb decision not to include the TV shows in the movie universe. Shit, even some of the TV shows weren't/aren't in the same universe.
easy
Man this is going to interesting.
I predict a couple BVS reviews. a couple justice league reviews.
Some one saying Wonder Woman is just like Captain America.
Someone trying to Justify Iron man 3.
Someone bitching about Green Lantern.
And someone (probably me) mentioning that Bruce Tim and Paul Dini should have been in control of this since the beginning.
I predict a couple BVS reviews. a couple justice league reviews.
Some one saying Wonder Woman is just like Captain America.
Someone trying to Justify Iron man 3.
Someone bitching about Green Lantern.
And someone (probably me) mentioning that Bruce Tim and Paul Dini should have been in control of this since the beginning.
/thread
nobody can justify Iron Man 3
HOWEVER
the Mandarin was a masterstroke (specifically BECAUSE of the controversy)
https://moviepilot.com/posts/3917852
and having ALL the armors battle was an ill visual.
but with all that said?
Still not a good movie.
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dude, Marvel comics stories have been horrible over the years. Yeah DC rebooted their shit, but the stories are still entertaining.
I like iron man 3 
I'll watch that for the fifty nine hundred time before I watch any of the dc movies post Christopher Nolan again
I'll watch that for the fifty nine hundred time before I watch any of the dc movies post Christopher Nolan again
Guess thats probably why theyre anticipating their streaming network to be a success..cause if it is then we may eventually see television versions of Wonder Woman and Batman..we already seen Superman in a two-part Supergirl episode
Warner Bros has 3 of the 5 most popular comic book characters of all time in one movie yet couldn't make it work..There is no amount of excuse Warner Bros or anyone can come up on why the movie wasn't good.
Me and a few members predicted this shit would happened,because Warner Bros was rushing it trying to catch up to Marvel.
They're announcing all these movies for their universe yet only have one movie that people likes and that's Wonder Woman(even though I thought Man of Steel was good).How can you announce movies years ahead yet the movies before them is garbage.
I think it 's universally known Iron Man 3 is garbage.....lol...The only reason,why I watched it is because I wanted to see Mandarin and they gave is a bunch of bullshit.
I'm one of the few people that actually like Green Lantern.....lol
Me and a few members predicted this shit would happened,because Warner Bros was rushing it trying to catch up to Marvel.
They're announcing all these movies for their universe yet only have one movie that people likes and that's Wonder Woman(even though I thought Man of Steel was good).How can you announce movies years ahead yet the movies before them is garbage.
I think it 's universally known Iron Man 3 is garbage.....lol...The only reason,why I watched it is because I wanted to see Mandarin and they gave is a bunch of bullshit.
I'm one of the few people that actually like Green Lantern.....lol
I feel anyone who is a fan has the right to criticize. They have the rights to a film that has Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman in it and they shit the bed twice. Regardless of what Marvel is doing, that's still and unguarded lay-up. BvS was a mess and JL was riddled with problems too. I managed to still be watchable and I liked it, but knowing what it took to get what we got brings down the movie several notches.
Check this out.
Sure we have the Snyder version and the Whedon reshoots, but there ended up being two different movies advertised from the get-go.
If they would have accepted that didn't need to rush the damn thing they wouldn't be out assbetting. Wonder Woman was pure luck and had a built in audience with the female fan base. You didn't have to care about Superman or Batman to enjoy that movie.
I've heard several takes on what would have been a film given their premise from folks who've posted stuff online. Shit me and the people I saw it with fame up with better stuff.
Check this out.
Sure we have the Snyder version and the Whedon reshoots, but there ended up being two different movies advertised from the get-go.
If they would have accepted that didn't need to rush the damn thing they wouldn't be out assbetting. Wonder Woman was pure luck and had a built in audience with the female fan base. You didn't have to care about Superman or Batman to enjoy that movie.
I've heard several takes on what would have been a film given their premise from folks who've posted stuff online. Shit me and the people I saw it with fame up with better stuff.
The not including the tv characters in the movies/universe thing. Just doesn't make sense to me. I understand they may need to work around people schedules. But I think they could have worked that out. Granted I haven't any of the DC tv shows yet. I don't feel the urgency to watch them. While the DC universe is being developed in the movies. I'm going to go see justice league. To judge the movie for myself.
What up Playa,
I commented in the other thread about my overall displeasure with JL. Although it wasn’t too bad for me because I expected it. Like I said in the other threads and through some of the chats as soon as the WB executives started listening to the “its to dark and not hopeful and Superman’s to dark” non-sense it was a wrap.
Everything indicated that they would swing hard to the other side of the spectrum and as a result produced whatever the hell this move turned out to be.
It’s not a Synder movie that’s for damn sure and nor is it a Whedon movie. I guess it’s a distorted something in the middle?
Eitherway WB is really fucked. What are they in the CBM genre? They have no identity! The sold it as soon as they listened to critics and some fans.
It’s a damn shame because DC has some really great characters and story arcs.
I didn't see the hate for Green Lantern either. It had the same issue almost every comic movie has and it's a good villain. Of course I'm not into DC so I'm just looking at it from a movie point if view.
What up Playa,
I commented in the other thread about my overall displeasure with JL. Although it wasn’t too bad for me because I expected it. Like I said in the other threads and through some of the chats as soon as the WB executives started listening to the “its to dark and not hopeful and Superman’s to dark” non-sense it was a wrap.
Everything indicated that they would swing hard to the other side of the spectrum and as a result produced whatever the hell this move turned out to be. Btw, this was during BvS and while filming JL aaprently
It’s not a Synder movie that’s for damn sure and nor is it a Whedon movie. I guess it’s a distorted something in the middle?
Eitherway WB is really fucked. What are they in the CBM genre? They have no identity! The sold it as soon as they listened to critics and some fans.
It’s a damn shame because DC has some really great characters and story arcs.
DC is good with anime. They are slightly better than Marvel in that capacity.
100% fam
watch the recent Fatman on Batman review
they said the EXACT SAME THING on the points you made
EXACTLY.
I think it more than slightly
there was a point where DC Animation vids were MUST SEE and damn near Oscar worthy.
Because its mostly nonsense
Some criticisms are on point
Majority are like hey this aint marvel so hey it ain't good
Some criticisms are on point
Majority are like hey this aint marvel so hey it ain't good
you REALLY think its THAT simple.
I don;t think people WANT DC movies to suck
and based on the box office for both Squad and BvS people WANT these movies
its the reviews AFTER and the fan disappointment I think is the issue and I think their gripes are LEGIT
and cuz...
we live in an age where EVERYONE thinks they an expert
on EVERYTHING
so they losing perspective and I don't know who the f*k the target audience for these super hero movies are anymore.
It's either 2 things going on here. Either DC fans just happen to be mentally sick. Or They are mostly just contrarians who do this with everything. They hate anything popular and champion anything everyone else hates... Until it gets popular.
It is a shit ton of ppl went just to hate the movie lol
I was reading some old threads here and cats were complaining about man of steel
Talking about explain to me how he's on an oil rig in one scene then the next he's hitchhiking then the next he's working at a diner
And I'm crying laughing cause these niggas is complaining about a Montage lol
Hahahaha
They're saying the movie is trash and fake cause there's a Montage about superman and what he was up to when he went out into the world giving a synopsis on the things he's done
That'd be like explain to me how Forrest Gump was in Alabama in one scene then Arizona running in the next one then utah the next then California?
I was crying
"But there might be something in this: Much of the DC identity lay, especially in the wake of 1984's one-two smash of Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, in the idea that gritty was cool. Dark was the way forward."
I think the truth is DC didn't really need an extended universe. They saw Marvel printing money and instead of creating their own model just tried to copy Marvel's. The results have been disastrous.
I've said it again and again: Superman and Batman have been around too damn long to change their narratives. Even people who never saw a superhero movie, read a comic book or watched a TV show know who Superman and Batman are. Everybody knows how Superman's powers work. Everybody knows Batman doesn't have powers. You gotta start with that and just work with it.
Marvel's characters are mostly from radiation and shit. Much more leeway. Hell, they can manifest new powers at anytime (ie: Jean Grey).
It's simply not feasible to have DC's main characters compete in the same way as characters that are much more modern.
And the decision to go to a "dark universe," well, that was okay for Batman because that's how he rolls (although I'm sure it would have gotten tiresome). But you can't put Superman in their. His whole deal is he is a moralistic prick. He doesn't kill unless unavoidable. So right away we've got a problem trying to throw two disparate characters into the same universe. Add WW who also has high morals from Amazonia, which is a greek-like place. And greeks were supposedly so highly principled. We know the real history but you get the idea.
Anyway, my point is: DC tried to make a cake with meat and chicke; and it just doesn't work.
I think the truth is DC didn't really need an extended universe. They saw Marvel printing money and instead of creating their own model just tried to copy Marvel's. The results have been disastrous.
I've said it again and again: Superman and Batman have been around too damn long to change their narratives. Even people who never saw a superhero movie, read a comic book or watched a TV show know who Superman and Batman are. Everybody knows how Superman's powers work. Everybody knows Batman doesn't have powers. You gotta start with that and just work with it.
Marvel's characters are mostly from radiation and shit. Much more leeway. Hell, they can manifest new powers at anytime (ie: Jean Grey).
It's simply not feasible to have DC's main characters compete in the same way as characters that are much more modern.
And the decision to go to a "dark universe," well, that was okay for Batman because that's how he rolls (although I'm sure it would have gotten tiresome). But you can't put Superman in their. His whole deal is he is a moralistic prick. He doesn't kill unless unavoidable. So right away we've got a problem trying to throw two disparate characters into the same universe. Add WW who also has high morals from Amazonia, which is a greek-like place. And greeks were supposedly so highly principled. We know the real history but you get the idea.
Anyway, my point is: DC tried to make a cake with meat and chicke; and it just doesn't work.
I had no idea they made those points. But as someone that followed the genre. This result was all but guaranteed.
You can’t start changing the script and all the other mess in the middle of shooting.
You can’t be a reactionary business. They originally hired Synder for a reason. He has a unique way of film making that’s not always appreciated or even understood by a good amount of people. Thus a “decisive” filmmaker. You knew that and you hired him. So man up with your decision.
At this point you’ve allowed the guy to make 2 out of 3 of this triology his way. Why not have him complete the last movie by his vision?
Moreover, it’s like the studio didn’t learn anything from cutting BvS short. So they double down and mandated this movie be under 2 hours and I’m sure like everyone already said it shows.
Terrible executive decisions at the top.
DC is WAY BETTER than Marvel when it comes to animation. Its not even close.
You like gl but got the unmitigated gall to say anything about im3?
How sway?
OMG thank you
IM3 was a decent movie. It wasn't great, better than 2, but it was decent/good. I stand by it.
And I will bitch bout GL.
LOL
I don't know why Marvel stops their one shots. But All Hail the King was genius. Even if it was an afterthought, to keep that story going, (and it is cause the ten rings showed up in Ant Man), i want to see more.
Bioboosted!
...
you don't see the hate for GL? what you been doing, staring at the eclipse?
I'm glad that line is blurred now Comic book movies were made for the fans but they aren't geared for them. that's what the eggs are for. movies period, are made for the masses. i don't like how the media has made them exclusively into 'comic book' movies, when we can just call them a movie. its a movie! when was the last time you said "im going to go watch a drama movie today" or "can't wait for that comedy movie to show up!" its a movie. and these higher ups are recognizing that for these movies to succeed with these characters they can't be 'comic book' movies, they have to be movies.
Yeah I have to agree they could of added about 10 min to the movie and it would of been ok. Lets look at the lengths of other comic book hits:
Avengers - 2 hours 22 minutes
Avengers Ultron - 2:22
Wonder Woman 2:21
Civil War - 2:27
Winter Soldier - 2:16