Those Damn Guns Again

[thoughtone]

Originally Posted by QueEx

Okay, for starters:

• Ban on high-capacity magazines & clits.

'

Oh heavens no. Don't ban these!

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by thoughtone

Oh heavens no. Don't ban these!

Okay, you can buy a gun and a half-box of ammo, if you like !!!

That was part of my "Mental Check" -- and so far, LOL, you're the only one who qualified, mentally, to buy a gun.

[thoughtone]

Originally Posted by QueEx

Okay, you can buy a gun and a half-box of ammo, if you like !!!

That was part of my "Mental Check" -- and so far, LOL, you're the only one who qualified, mentally, to buy a gun.

I think you had another kind of banging in mind!

[QueEx]

[hershey1973]

Originally Posted by QueEx

Okay, for starters:

• Reasononable restrictions against the sale of weapons and ammunition to the mentally ill or those believed to be mentally unstable.

I agree that is reasonable and prudent

• National legislation -- so that there can be uniformity of regulation and enforcement of the sale and possession of guns and ammo.
  I am reluctant to agree with this because the needs and circumstances of one state, does not necessarily apply to those in another.I dont like seeing rights of a state handed over to the government. The type of gun enforcement needed by a border state like Texas or Arizona is not the same as Vermont (which has one of the most liberal carry laws and similarly one of the lowest murder rates)

• Background checks at the point of sale that includes mental background checks for people wishing to buy handguns and automatic weapons.

I agree, if you cannot pass a routine background check, you should not be allowed to purchase a gun. Automatic weapons, however, have been prohibited since 1934 and require high fees and paperwork approved byt the ATF and the local chief law enforcement agent so we dont really see automatic weapons used very often in crime

• Ban on high-capacity magazines & clits.

High capacity clits may in fact harbor more disease so I try to limit my exposure to them in the real world (though they are easily concealed and sometimes hard to identify)but since we have a thriving film and photo porn industry, I cant in good conscience call for the ban on them lol.

I also cant agree with the ban on high capacity magazines. First of all, I dont believe we can reasonably arrive at a certain number and label everything above that as high capacity. 10 rounds to protect your home from a group of home invaders may not be sufficient. 20 rounds may not be sufficient. Let us not forget that defensive gun use occurs thousands of times a day, and more often than guns are used to commit crimes ...so my desire is that we do not impair the good citizens ability to use the gun defensively in a well intentioned, but ineffective attempt to limit the bad guys access to them.
There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually. Gary Kleck is a Professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University (see overview). His research centers on violence and crime control with special focus on gun control and crime deterrence. Dr. Kleck is the author of Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America (Aldine de Gruyter, 1991), and Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control (Aldine de Gruyter, 1997). He is also a contributor to the major sociology journals, and in 1993 Dr. Kleck was the winner of the Michael J. Hindelang Award of the American Society of Criminology, for the book which made "the most outstanding contribution to criminology" in the preceding three years (for Point Blank).

Gary Kleck's voluntary disclosure statement that appears in Targeting Guns:

The author is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, Independent Action, Democrats 2000, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations He is a lifelong registered Democrat, as well as a contributor to liberal Democratic candidates. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of, or contributor to, the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control, Inc. nor any other advocacy organization, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization.

Marvin Wolfgang, who was one of the most prominent criminologists, commented on Kleck's research concerning defensive gun use (see How often are guns used in self-defense?):

I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns--ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people. ...

What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. ...

Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart studies. ...

Nevertheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it. ...

The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.
--- Marvin E. Wofgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.)

• A national reporting system covering the sale of guns and ammo (each time a person purchases a gun or ammo a report is generated to the national clearinghouse. The cost of reporting to be paid by the purchaser, at the place & time of purchase.

I see no evidence anywhere that a certain quantity of ammo correlates with increased risk of a person committing a crime and therefore see no need in ammmo sales being reported. In the case of these mass shootings, a shooter is still limited to the amount of ammo and magazines he can carry...which is measured in hundreds of rounds..a quantity that could be accumulated without raising even the slightest eyebrow. With 27,000,000 rounds of ammo and thousands of guns sold per day, the cost of these reporting meausres that is passed on to the purchaser could adversely affect a poorer persons ability to purchase a gun for protection...while they live in areas where they may have the most need for it. That hurts the good guys, and I cannot support that

• Limitations on the amount of ammunition (tracked through a national clearinghouse (cost to operate the clearinghouse paid for my user-fees collected at the place and point of sale of weapons and ammo).

Again, I see no stats that show ammo quantity has anything to do with crime...a person who likes to shoot, or who hones their proficiency through lots of practice, now has the appearance of being questionable...though what theyre doing is actually being more responsible. A gun is a tool that projects force over distance...it is incumbent upon a responsible shooter, to hit what he aims for. I see no reason to handicap the good guys when I see no coorelation between ammo count and crime. A bad guy with a six shooter full of 45 pointed at my chest and no ammo at home is just as lethal to me in that moment as a bad guy with a thousand rounds of ammo at home. Actually i would prefer he had 1000 rounds on his person, it would slow him down. AS you know, most gun crime is done with handguns, and these mass shootings with so called assualt rifles are very rare (still tragic) events

• Prohibit the sale of weapons and ammunition (by individuals or entities) except through an authorized and licensed gun and ammo dealer which must purchase a bond to insure the dealer's compliance with law. The licensed/bonded dealer must report to a national clearinghouse, under penalty of law, the violation of which, whether by individuals or entites, is punishable as a felony including a lofty fine that is recoverable through the bond. An individual or non-authorized entity desiring to sell or transfer ownership of a firearm or ammo would be required to go through an authorized and licensed gun/ammo dealer so that reports are generated and fees collected.

I disagree with the national reporting, but I do agree that weapon sales should be handled through an authorized dealer and registered at the state level...failure to register at state level could trigger the fines and penalties you speak of.

• Mandatory registration of ALL guns through the national clearinghouse. New gun sales to be registered immediately and grace period for existing guns to be registered. Registration accomplished through a licensed gun and ammo dealer. Fees for registration collected at the point and place of registration.

I see no benefit in this. We have approx 2 million gun thefts reported a year, even registered guns can simply be reported as stolen and sold on the black market...I see no good being accomplished by a national registry, especially if history teaches us what happens to countries when a government has the ability to track down and take away guns

"But the record of strict gun regulations in other countries is quite dismal. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938. and from 1939 to 1945 13 million Jews and others were exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935; from 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964, and from 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians were exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970 — from 1971 to 1979, 300,000 people were exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956, and from 1975 to 1977 one million educated people were exterminated.

In a more recent example, the British Broadcasting Company reported on May 10, 2000, that the United Nations convinced the people of Sierra Leone to turn in their private weapons for UN protection during the recent civil war. The result was disastrous. The people ended up defenseless when UN troops, unable to protect even themselves, were taken hostage by rebels moving on the capital of Freetown.

Estimates run as high as 56 million people who have been exterminated in the 20th century because gun control left them defenseless. "
Is the history of our great country so beyond reproach that you would imagine that such things(as happened to our people and native americans) couldnt happen here again...

• Public possession (possession beyond the immediate perimeter of the holders property) of an unregistered gun = a felony punishable by time (including a mandatory minimum) and a lofty fine.

Yes, if the registry is at the state level. Residents of Vermont and Alaska and others might object to its need given their loose gun control laws and their lack of crime..so state level control is important to me



Would you like for me to draft the legislation ? ? ?
lol at least if you drafted it, despite my opposition, we wouldnt have hundreds of earmarks and sneaky little additions added in that no one notices until its too late



'

I do respect that you have a well developed position despite my objections to many aspects of it. One last danger I see with national reporting is that these reports and records will become an attractive target for political groups and criminal groups (if there is a difference between the two). imagine hackers gaining access and posting to the internet a list that shows who has the guns and ammo...and who does not. Depending on the motivation, knowing that you have no guns makes you an easy mark for a home invasion or street level robbery...or knowing you have a substantial quantity of guns and ammo makes you an attractive target for a burglary when you're away...either way I have no faith that such a database will have any crime reducing use that will not result in abuse and a greater danger to law abiding citizens. Unintended consequences.

[hershey1973]

[hershey1973]

While this looks like I am countering my own position...my take on this is that I want to see things done that hinder the bad guys in a tangible way without negatively impacting the good guys in a greater way. This technology for bullet registration is interesting...I, as a good citizen, dont mind if the police know that my bullets was used in a shooting because I will not use my bullets in a criminal way...if the database that this tech would generate was kept at the state level and not at a national level, I wouldnt fundamentally oppose such a measure. It does give police a good starting point during that first 48. I think this would be more useful than a ban on any particular class of weapon since criminals will simply shift to a more available class of weapon to commit the same acts.


www.ammocoding.com
Ammunition Coding System (ACS)

Almost every day in every major US city you can open your local newspaper and read about the aftermath of gun violence. A child, a police officer, a mother or a father is cut down in the prime of life. An assassin murders a popular Seattle prosecutor. Two bloodthirsty snipers prey on innocent bystanders and terrorize our nation’s Capitol or a lone gunman takes potshots at passing motorists on a Columbus freeway. In most cases, the only evidence left behind is a body, a bullet, and possibly a shell casing or two.

According to the United States Department of Justice, there is more than a 30% chance of never finding the killer in homicides involving a firearm1. If ballistic evidence cannot be quickly linked to a crime gun, and the gun recovered and quickly linked to a suspect, the chance of arresting the perpetrator is far less likely. If the bullets and cartridge cases used by criminals were linked directly to a potential suspect, more crimes involving firearms would be solved and more gun crime could be prevented.
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:: Top
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Does not require any special training or equipment for law enforcement officials.
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Eliminates subjectivity in identifying the buyer of the round. In many cases a bullet trace can be initiated at the crime scene.
Code is identifiable in cases where as little as 20% of the base of the bullet is recovered.

:: Top
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The implementation of the ACS technology will require legislation to establish an ammunition sale database. In those states that have already developed and implemented bar-coding systems that include driver’s licenses and other forms of identification, the integration of a database system to record ammunition sales will be relatively simple and inexpensive to implement.

:: Top
How will the ACS technology process work?

A unique ACS code will be assigned to each box of new ammunition. Most major ammunition manufacturers already use bar-coding for inventory control and management. Ammunition manufacturers will simply include the ACS code in their current bar coding system. Ammunition retailers will scan the bar code on each box of bullets along with the purchaser’s driver’s license or state issued ID. The resulting electronic record would be transferred to a secure computer database that would confidentially maintain individual ammunition sales information.

:: Top
What are the costs to manufacturers?

There are several well known manufacturers currently producing a significant portion of the current commercially available ammunition in the United States. Each ammunition producer would be required to purchase at least one, if not more, laser engraving machines and ammunition material handlers to produce ACS coded ammunition. There are several manufacturers who can design and build this equipment. Reliable estimates for a complete set of engraving/material handling equipment range from $300,000 to $500,000 each. A licensing fee for each bullet sold would also be required. However, since approximately 10 billion bullets are sold in the United States alone each year, equipment costs, once amortized over the number of bullets produced and sold are not significant.

:: Top
What is the impact on retailers and consumers?

Ammunition retailers will also have some minor administrative costs. These costs, like other costs associated with doing business will most likely be passed onto the retailer purchaser. We estimate that the entire ACS process can be implemented without dramatically increasing the purchase price to the end user while maintaining an effective crime fighting system paid for almost exclusively by user fees.

:: Top
How many unique codes are available?

There are 91 unique characters on a standard computer keyboard. The ACS technology uses these characters in five, six, or seven columns. Typically, ammunition comes in boxes of either 50 or 20, and all bullets in a box will be coded alike. There are 12 common handgun and assault weapon calibers. This means that ACS can accommodate over 21 quadrillion unique bullet codes. Since it is estimated that there are approximately 10 billion bullets sold annually in the United States, and 20-30 billion bullets sold worldwide annually, the ACS has the capacity to keep pace with the current rate of sales for decades to come.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by QueEx

• National legislation -- so that there can be uniformity of regulation and enforcement of the sale and possession of guns and ammo.

Originally Posted by hershey1973

I am reluctant to agree with this because the needs and circumstances of one state, does not necessarily apply to those in another.I dont like seeing rights of a state handed over to the government. The type of gun enforcement needed by a border state like Texas or Arizona is not the same as Vermont (which has one of the most liberal carry laws and similarly one of the lowest murder rates)

A thinly disguised states rights argument to permit and allow continued tragedy, grief and pain - - and/or to mask the simple notion that: you're clinging to your guns ??? no matter what.

National legislation is not based upon the needs and circumstances of one state as opposed to another, its based upon fairness; upon the idea that everyone will know what the law is (not having to figure out what the rules might be as one traverses state lines; upon not allowing would-be gun violators to "forum shop" - i.e., choose which state might it be easier to avoid another state's laws or perpetrate particular crimes; and upon the notion that one state's slack or no reporting and enforcement won't become its neighbor state's problem.

We should all never forget the horror perpetrated upon black people supported and justified under the rubric of "states rights" -- lest we repeat the horrors, even if in other and unforeseen ways.

Finally, and for the sake of brevity, there only needs to be one (1) type of meaningful/reasonable gun control: American Meaningful & Reasonable Gun Control. Not Arizona's version, not Alabama,s version, not Alaska's version, etc.

Let's be serious about the reduction of gun violence and stop trying to find ways to justify and place the American lust for dangerous instruments - over - the interest of the innocent lives maimed or lost.

.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by QueEx

• Background checks at the point of sale that includes mental background checks for people wishing to buy handguns and automatic weapons.

Originally Posted by hershey1973

I agree, if you cannot pass a routine background check, you should not be allowed to purchase a gun.

Great!

But to be sure that you did not miss a "Major Point" of my dissertation, (LOL) i.e., "the payment of fees" for background checks and the purchase of weapons, ammo, etc., "at the point and place of sale" -- I want to point out here that I believe those simple concepts completely dispel your points in your Post No. 92 to the effect that:

"We CANT afford" reasonable gun control, and further that "The problem with this entire line of thought is that it is not financially practical in our society today . . ."

In other words, reasonable gun control can be cost effective and the burden of that cost is best-placed upon those who desire to engage in risky behavior.

`

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by QueEx

• Ban on high-capacity magazines & clits.

Originally Posted by hershey1973

High capacity clits may in fact harbor more disease so I try to limit my exposure to them in the real world (though they are easily concealed and sometimes hard to identify)but since we have a thriving film and photo porn industry, I cant in good conscience call for the ban on them lol.

Okay, like T.O., you pass that part of the mental check as well -- so I suppose that you're cleared to purchase a gun and a half-box of ammo, too.

Originally Posted by hershey1973

I also cant agree with the ban on high capacity magazines. First of all, I dont believe we can reasonably arrive at a certain number and label everything above that as high capacity. 10 rounds to protect your home from a group of home invaders may not be sufficient. 20 rounds may not be sufficient. Let us not forget that defensive gun use occurs thousands of times a day, and more often than guns are used to commit crimes ...so my desire is that we do not impair the good citizens ability to use the gun defensively in a well intentioned, but ineffective attempt to limit the bad guys access to them.

Ironically, the 2nd Amendment does not speak specifically to ammo, hence, the right to have any amount could be problematic. Moreover, as an apparent major gun proponent, I am not surprised that you would not want to limit the amount of ammo that one might legally possess.

One (1) or twenty (20) or, 1,000 ? ? ?

One well placed round can do the job of 1,000.

A 1,000 misses can do more damage than 1 well placed round, but who took of those 1,000?: your neighbors, your neighbor's property, innocent passers by, or your spouse, parents or children ???

If we're serious about the reduction of gun-related violence, I feel certain that we could arrive at what would be a reasonable amount of ammo, if we seriously tried. If we're not serious, then I feel just as certain that we could easily think-up a zillion reasons why we can't.

Once we arrive at a reasonable amount of ammo that one could legally possess, the national reporting system could easily point out potential trouble makers -- that might give us a heads-up before someone goes, heads-down.

Originally Posted by hershey1973

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually. Gary Kleck is a Professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University (see overview). His research centers on violence and crime control with special focus on gun control and crime deterrence. Dr. Kleck is the author of Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America (Aldine de Gruyter, 1991), and Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control (Aldine de Gruyter, 1997). He is also a contributor to the major sociology journals, and in 1993 Dr. Kleck was the winner of the Michael J. Hindelang Award of the American Society of Criminology, for the book which made "the most outstanding contribution to criminology" in the preceding three years (for Point Blank).

Just a couple of points:

• First, my quick read of the Kleck study failed to reveal any correlation whatsoever to the number of "defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year" and the (a) the number of rounds used in each DGU, (b) the number of direct hits per round, per DUG, (c) the number of rounds that missed, per DGU, (d) what did those missed rounds hit, and (e) whether those so-called DGU's were actually DGU's and whether in those DGU's it was even reasonable to have fired a shot, at all. If I missed it, I apologize and will be appreciative if you point it out to me.

• Lastly, in the future and if at all possible, please post a link to the study, article, etc., so that all might be able to read and analyze the same, as well.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by hershey1973

I disagree with the national reporting, but I do agree that weapon sales should be handled through an authorized dealer and registered at the state level...failure to register at state level could trigger the fines and penalties you speak of.

Why not national? - leaving to the states to come up with different regulation, confusing or conflicting regulation, or no regulation at all is preferrable to uniformity ? ? ?

Originally Posted by hershey1973

We have approx 2 million gun thefts reported a year, even registered guns can simply be reported as stolen and sold on the black market...

If all guns must be registered, then the possession of any unregistered gun would be illegal -- therefore, it wouldn't matter whether the possessor came into possession of the gun, legally or illegally. The goal is merely to reduce the number of guns, especially illegal ones. You're objecting to that ???

Originally Posted by hershey1973

I see no good being accomplished by a national registry, especially if history teaches us what happens to countries when a government has the ability to track down and take away guns

"But the record of strict gun regulations in other countries is quite dismal. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938. and from 1939 to 1945 13 million Jews and others were exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935; from 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964, and from 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians were exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970 — from 1971 to 1979, 300,000 people were exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956, and from 1975 to 1977 one million educated people were exterminated.

In a more recent example, the British Broadcasting Company reported on May 10, 2000, that the United Nations convinced the people of Sierra Leone to turn in their private weapons for UN protection during the recent civil war. The result was disastrous. The people ended up defenseless when UN troops, unable to protect even themselves, were taken hostage by rebels moving on the capital of Freetown.

Estimates run as high as 56 million people who have been exterminated in the 20th century because gun control left them defenseless. "
Is the history of our great country so beyond reproach that you would imagine that such things(as happened to our people and native americans) couldnt happen here again..

Ever hear of the fallacy of cause and effect


`

[Upgrade Dave]

And to show how none of us are here talking about banning of handguns at all, no one has even mentioned the latest act of domestic terrorism at the Sikh temple last week.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by Upgrade Dave

And to show how none of us are here talking about banning of handguns at all, no one has even mentioned the latest act of domestic terrorism at the Sikh temple last week.

But I'm not sure the Poster in Post No. 110 understands your point

[Upgrade Dave]

Wait


I know we ain't talking about banning clits????!!!!

Don't expect my liberal ass to jump on that bandwagon, buddy.

[thoughtone]

Arm everybody!

source: msn


Police constable, gunman, civilian killed in gunbattle near Texas A&M

Updated at 6:16 p.m. ET: A police constable and a civilian were killed when a gunman opened fire Monday near the campus of Texas A&M University in College Station. The gunman died after a gunbattle with police, authorities said.

Police in College Station, about 100 miles north of Houston, responded shortly after noon local time (1 p.m. ET) to a home near George Bush Drive along the southern boundary of the university after gunshots were reported, Assistant Police Chief Scott McCollum said. When officers arrived, they came under fire and shot the suspect during what McCollum described as a 30-minute shootout.


The suspect, described as a man in his mid-30s, later died, he said.

Officers found Brian Bachmann, 41, the elected constable for Precinct 1 in Brazos County, on the ground and began performing cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Bachmann, who had gone to the scene to serve eviction papers, was pronounced dead at an area hospital, McCollum said.

---

Bachmann, a Brazos County sheriff's deputy from 1993 until he was elected constable in 2010, "was very close to everyone in law enforcement here," McCollum said.

"He was a pillar," McCollum said. "It's sad and tragic that we've lost him today."

In addition to Bachmann, a 65-year-old man was pronounced dead. A 55-year-old woman, also a civilian, was shot and was in surgery Monday afternoon. Neither was immediately identified.

Three other unidentified law enforcement officers were also injured, one of whom was shot in the calf, McCollum said. The two others were treated for non-life-threatening injuries.

Investigators were "working through their emotions," McCollum said.

"You can imagine, as close as he was to all the officers in this area — these are the officers who are working this case," he said.

Campus officials issued an alert early Monday afternoon to faculty and students for an "active shooter" two blocks southeast of the university, which houses former President George H.W. Bush's presidential library.

[GhostofMarcus]

One of my home boys was telling me about this last weekend. I had to look it up at his house to make sure he was telling the truth. He was in the local store and state they got them for the cheap.

Welcome to walmart.
Get you some chips, beer, clothes and an assault rifle all in one stop.

I may have to pick one up.

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Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine M4A3 Rifle, 5.56 NATO


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Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine M4A3 Rifle, 5.56 NATO:

MSR
Twist: 1 x 9"
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Capacity: 30
Barrel color: blued
Barrel length: 16"
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Barrel type: 4150 chrome-moly steel with chrome-lined bore/chamber barrel
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[QueEx]

Those Damn Guns Again


2 killed, 8 injured in shooting near Empire State Building

[BrainChild09]

Originally Posted by QueEx

Those Damn Guns Again


2 killed, 8 injured in shooting near Empire State Building

Yet another life lost at the hands of a man gone mad. Truly sad & depressing.

I understand & sympathize with those who advocate for "stricter gun control." For those of you do, what specifically do you want the federal gun law(s) to be or change from & into?

I respect all serious answers. If you're inclined to start name calling, I'd prefer if you just didn't respond. Thanks.

[thoughtone]

Originally Posted by BrainChild09

Yet another life lost at the hands of a man gone mad. Truly sad & depressing.

I understand & sympathize with those who advocate for "stricter gun control." For those of you do, what specifically do you want the federal gun law(s) to be or change from & into?

I respect all serious answers. If you're inclined to start name calling, I'd prefer if you just didn't respond. Thanks.

what specifically do you want the federal gun law(s) to be or change from & into?

Since you tend to pop on to this board when you think you have an issue that favors your world view, I will do a slight recap. All of your concerns have been answered earlier in this thread. Please read this thread from the beginning so you won't be redundant.

NYC, over 8 million people. 10 people shot, 2 dead. This event is definitely an outlier in NYC. During the same time period in Chicago, a city of 2.7 million, 19 people shot. This behavior is not atypical in the Windy city. A city that recently loosen it's gun laws due to a Supreme Court Case. I know you are not suggesting that gun crimes should be totally eliminated in NYC with more stringent gun laws.

New York City is by far the safest big city in the US and safest among cities in general. In fact the surrounding communities around NYC are among the safest also. Why? The surrounding states have strict gun laws. Contrast that to Illinois, which borders Indiana and Kentucky which have lax gun laws. Therefore, easier to import illegal guns. This is why Washington DC and Baltimore have elevated gun crime rates in contrast to other Northeastern cities. There proximity to Virgina. Almost all of the illegal guns found in these cities can be traced to Virgina, which has some of the most permissive gun laws in the US.

OK, think my points are just opinions? I'll post the facts. You know how I roll!

source: Violence Policy Center

States with Higher Gun Ownership and Weak Gun Laws Lead Nation in Gun Death



Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi, and Nevada Have Highest Gun Death Rates

Washington, DC–States with higher gun ownership rates and weak gun laws have the highest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of just-released 2006 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

The analysis reveals that the five states with the highest per capita gun death rates were Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi, and Nevada. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far exceeding the national per capita gun death rate of 10.32 per 100,000 for 2006. Each state has lax gun laws and higher gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with strong gun laws and low rates of gun ownership had far lower rates of firearm-related death. Ranking last in the nation for gun death was Hawaii, followed by Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and New York. (See chart below for top and bottom five states. See http://www.vpc.org/fadeathchart09.htm for a ranking of all 50 states.)

States with the Five Highest Gun Death Rates				States with the Five Lowest Gun Death Rates
Rank	State	Household Gun Ownership	Gun Death Rate per 100,000	Rank	State	Household Gun Ownership	Gun Death Rate per 100,000
1	Louisiana	45.6 percent	19.58	50	Hawaii	9.7 percent	2.58
2	Alabama	57.2 percent	16.99	49	Massachusetts	12.8 percent	3.28
3 (tie)	Alaska	60.6 percent	16.38	48	Rhode Island	13.3 percent	4.43
3 (tie)	Mississippi	54.3 percent	16.38	47	Connecticut	16.2 percent	4.95
5	Nevada	31.5 percent	16.25	46	New York	18.1 percent	5.20

VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, "More guns means more gun death and injury. Fewer guns means less gun death and injury. It's a simple equation."
The VPC defined states with "weak" gun laws as those that add little or nothing to federal restrictions and have permissive concealed carry laws allowing civilians to carry concealed handguns. States with "strong" gun laws were defined as those that add significant state regulation in addition to federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and have restrictive concealed carry laws.

[BrainChild09]

Originally Posted by thoughtone

Since you tend to pop on to this board when you think you have an issue that favors your world view, I will do a slight recap. All of your concerns have been answered earlier in this thread. Please read this thread from the beginning so you won't be redundant.

NYC, over 8 million people. 10 people shot, 2 dead. This event is definitely an outlier in NYC. During the same time period in Chicago, a city of 2.7 million, 19 people shot. This behavior is not atypical in the Windy city. A city that recently loosen it's gun laws due to a Supreme Court Case. I know you are not suggesting that gun crimes should be totally eliminated in NYC with more stringent gun laws.

New York City is by far the safest big city in the US and safest among cities in general. In fact the surrounding communities around NYC are among the safest also. Why? The surrounding states have strict gun laws. Contrast that to Illinois, which borders Indiana and Kentucky which have lax gun laws. Therefore, easier to import illegal guns. This is why Washington DC and Baltimore have elevated gun crime rates in contrast to other Northeastern cities. There proximity to Virgina. Almost all of the illegal guns found in these cities can be traced to Virgina, which has some of the most permissive gun laws in the US.

OK, think my points are just opinions? I'll post the facts. You know how I roll!

source: Violence Policy Center

States with Higher Gun Ownership and Weak Gun Laws Lead Nation in Gun Death



Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi, and Nevada Have Highest Gun Death Rates

Washington, DC–States with higher gun ownership rates and weak gun laws have the highest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of just-released 2006 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

The analysis reveals that the five states with the highest per capita gun death rates were Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi, and Nevada. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far exceeding the national per capita gun death rate of 10.32 per 100,000 for 2006. Each state has lax gun laws and higher gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with strong gun laws and low rates of gun ownership had far lower rates of firearm-related death. Ranking last in the nation for gun death was Hawaii, followed by Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and New York. (See chart below for top and bottom five states. See http://www.vpc.org/fadeathchart09.htm for a ranking of all 50 states.)



VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, "More guns means more gun death and injury. Fewer guns means less gun death and injury. It's a simple equation."
The VPC defined states with "weak" gun laws as those that add little or nothing to federal restrictions and have permissive concealed carry laws allowing civilians to carry concealed handguns. States with "strong" gun laws were defined as those that add significant state regulation in addition to federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and have restrictive concealed carry laws.

How yet another innocent life being taken in a string of random shootings would "favor my worldview", I'll never know. I swear you have issues dude. Even with all I said, you still can't help yourself from being condescending & rude. There should be no wonder why I rarely say anything on this board any longer.

But thanks for the info. That is all I was seeking. I wasn't arguing for or against stricter gun laws at all. Just looking for specifics & you provided some. Thanks. I apologize for not reading the previous posts.

[thoughtone]

Originally Posted by BrainChild09

How yet another innocent life being taken in a string of random shootings would "favor my worldview", I'll never know. I swear you have issues dude. Even with all I said, you still can't help yourself from being condescending & rude. There should be no wonder why I rarely say anything on this board any longer.

But thanks for the info. That is all I was seeking. I wasn't arguing for or against stricter gun laws at all. Just looking for specifics & you provided some. Thanks. I apologize for not reading the previous posts.

Well la dee da!

[thoughtone]

Originally Posted by BrainChild09

Yet another life lost at the hands of a man gone mad. Truly sad & depressing.

I understand & sympathize with those who advocate for "stricter gun control." For those of you do, what specifically do you want the federal gun law(s) to be or change from & into?

I respect all serious answers. If you're inclined to start name calling, I'd prefer if you just didn't respond. Thanks.

source: Huffington Post


NYPD Gunfire In Empire State Building Shooting Wounded All Nine Bystanders, Says Ray Kelly

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said all nine bystanders wounded in Friday's Empire State Building shooting had been hit with police gunfire, CNN reported Saturday morning.

According to Kelly, of the nine wounded, three suffered gunshot wounds and six were hit by fragments.

Gunfire broke out shortly after 9 a.m. on Friday when a gunman identified as 58-year old Jeffrey Johnson shot and killed former coworker Steve Ercolino near the Empire State Building.

Johnson attempted to flee the scene, but was thwarted after a construction worker who followed him tipped off police officers.

Police approached Johnson who aimed his gun at the officers before police opened fire, killing him on the spot.

The NYPD said officers fired 16 rounds with one officer shooting nine and another seven.

During a press conference held on Friday, Mayor Bloomberg had said some individuals may have been shot at by NYPD.

Less than two weeks prior to Friday's shooting, NYPD shot and killed a knife-wielding man in Times Square. The bizarre incident caused many to question if the NYPD had overreacted.

Since the chaotic incident, details have emerged describing a hostile relationship between Johnson and Ercolino, who both worked at Hazan Imports together until Johnson was laid off nearly two years ago.

CORRECTION: This article originally stated that the man in Times Square who was shot by NYPD had a gun. He actually had a knife. The article has been updated to reflect that.

[QueEx]

Flight attendant brings revolver through Philly airport
security and gun accidentally fires into TSA break room

Republic Airlines flight attendant Jaclyn Luby was going through
security at Philadelphia International Airport when screeners found
a gun in her purse. A police officer trying to put the safety on
accidentally shot it, according to reports. No one was hurt.

Gun-toting flight attendant Jaclyn Luby showed up for work at Philadelphia International Airport early
Sunday with a packed revolver inside her handbag, according to reports.



NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
By Erik Ortiz
Monday, September 24, 2012[indent]

A gun found inside a flight attendant’s handbag by screeners at Philadelphia International Airport early Sunday accidentally discharged into a break room — but missed hitting anyone, according to reports.

Republic Airlines flight attendant Jaclyn Luby was walking through airport screening around 6:50 a.m. when she placed her carry-on bag through the X-ray machine, according to ABC affiliate WPVI.

Transportation Security Administration screeners saw the gun, described as a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson Airweight revolver, and notified a Philadelphia police officer. Luby was in another screening room with police when the gun went off. The bullet fired into a TSA break room, where an employee was sitting, police told NBC 10 Philadelphia.

No one was injured.

The firearm was a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson Airweight revolver similar to the one pictured above

The gun discharged when the officer tried to put the safety on, according to MyFoxPhilly.com.

Luby, a flight attendant for more than five years, told authorities that she had a permit to carry a gun — but forgot hers was in her handbag.

She received a summary citation for disorderly conduct and was released, while the officer who fired the gun was put on desk duty during the investigation, WPVI said.

Republic Airlines, which operates through a US Airways Express hub in Philadelphia, confirmed the incident.

Travelers were surprised that an airline employee would mistakenly bring a firearm to the airport.

“We are human and everybody does make mistakes and I understand that, even though she’s a seasoned veteran, she needs to be careful,” US Airways passenger Andrea Burger told WPVI, adding, “I’m sure it will be a great learning opportunity for her.”


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz27ObepgFB

[QueEx]

[thoughtone]

source: WTNH.com

Grieving in New Fairfield after teen dies

Grieving in New Fairfield after teen dies

NEW FAIRFIELD, Conn. (WTNH) -- New Fairfield High School has canceled all extracurricular activities, including tonight's football game, as the town copes with the shooting death of 15-year-old Tyler Giuliano.
"Unfortunately I think the weather's going to match the mood of the town for today," said New Fairfield First Selectman John Hodge on a rainy Friday.

Weary words from a town official, as New Fairfield High School students arrived barely 24 hours after sophomore Tyler Giuliano was fatally shot by his father , who thought he was an intruder.

"We're going to keep the kids protected and shielded from everything that's going on a best we can, around them today," Hodge said.

The father, 44-year-old Jeffrey Giuliano, a fifth-grade math teacher in town, had gotten a call from his sister next door about 1 a.m., that someone was trying to break in. Giuliano grabbed a gun and went outside to find a masked intruder. Apparently the would-be burglar came at him. That's when Jeffrey fired a fatal shot, completely unaware it was his own son.

Hodge tells News 8 that Tyler was adopted.

"The Dad must feel horrible," said senior Brian Wyckoff. "I mean, I would. If I ever did, I don't know how I'd live."

Wyckoff remembers Jeffrey Giuliano from his grade school days.

"I just remember he was always a nice guy," he said. "He'd walk around the hallway saying hi to everyone. He'd always have a smile on his face."

He also knew Tyler from school, and he says, like father, like son.

"Just a nice kid. He'd always have a smile on his face, he'd say hi to you."

As for why a 15-year-old boy might be burglarizing his aunt's home next door at 1 a.m., well the folks News 8 talked to are no closer to an answer than we are.

"I didn't know the family, but everything that I know and have been told, good kid," Hodge said.

Tyler was a member of the Civil Air Patrol, an Air Force auxiliary group.

"I don't know, he definitely does not seem like that kid," Wyckoff said. "He's not even close to seeming like that kid."

"Hopeful something will make some sense of this, some time in the future," Hodge said.

Police have determined that the shooting was in self-defense.
State police say it will likely take a week before they've wrapped up their investigation.

[Greed]

Okla. Girl, 12, Shoots Intruder During Home Burglary
By MARK GREENBLATT | Good Morning America – Sat, Oct 20, 2012

Kendra St. Clair, 12, was at home alone in Oklahoma, when loud banging began on the door to her family's home. Soon, the glass shattered and an intruder had entered.

"I was scared and I didn't know what to do next," Kendra told ABC News.

Petrified, she called her mom Debra.

"I said Kendra get the gun and go get in my closet now. And call 911."

The young 6th grader followed her mom's orders to the tee.
The 911 tapes tell the story as it unfolded.

Kendra: "I'm at my house. I'm in my closet. And I ran away from (inaudible) someone's trying to get into my house and I do not know who they are."

Dispatcher: "Ok I have a deputy en route, I want you to stay on the phone with me. Ok?" Kendra: "Ok. Please. I think they are in the house."

Kendra had taken shelter in a closet, clutching her mother's .40 caliber glock gun while she listened to the intruder make his way around her home.

Kendra: "Please help me. Please." Dispatcher: "Alright, alright. I understand. Do you still have your mom's gun there?" Kendra: "Yes I do. I have it in my hand."
Her fear intensified to sheer terror, when she saw the knob of the closet door beginning to turn.

At that point, that for the first time in her life, Kendra fired a gun.
Police said the bullet traveled straight through the closet door and struck 32-year-old Stacey Jones in the shoulder, scaring him out of the house.

They arrested him a few blocks away and charged Jones with first degree burglary.

"When I had the gun, I didn't think I was actually going to have to shoot somebody," the 6th grader recalled. "I think it's going to change me a whole lot, knowing that I can hold my head up high and nothing can hurt me anymore."
Her mother Debra agrees.

"I think that she did something that most grown-ups wouldn't be able to do in a frightening situation. I think she handled herself amazingly."

Jones was treated at the hospital and released into the custody of authorities. Police said he has not yet entered a plea but that bond has been set for $250,000.

http://news.yahoo.com/okla-girl-12-s...opstories.html

[Greed]

The government has no track record it can cite where it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals.

Man Shot Dead After Confrontation Outside Home
October 18, 2012 6:13 AM

CHICAGO (CBS) — A 39-year-old Chicago man died after he was shot in the chest Wednesday evening outside his home on the South Side.

Clinton Smith was shot multiple times shortly after he told several men who were outside his home in the 1000 block of East 73rd Street to leave, police said.

After the confrontation around 6:30 p.m., he went back inside his home.

Someone then knocked on the Smith’s door and when he opened it, he was shot.

Smith died about 45 minutes later at Northwestern Memorial Hospital.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/10/...-outside-home/

[thoughtone]

Report: Multiple People Shot Near Milwaukee-Area Mall




A spokeswoman says at least seven people have been hospitalized from a shooting near a spa in Wisconsin. The police are still looking for the suspect.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by Greed

Okla. Girl, 12, Shoots Intruder During Home Burglary

By MARK GREENBLATT | Good Morning America – Sat, Oct 20, 2012

Glad she's okay and had the nerve and the means to protect herself, in her home.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by Greed

The government has no track record it can cite where it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals.

Man Shot Dead After Confrontation Outside Home
October 18, 2012 6:13 AM

A government admission; studies show; or your opinion ???

[Greed]

Oh, I'm just using the evidence in this thread provided by people that are for more gun control.

This thread is full of articles of criminals using guns, and barely any having been posted of law-abiding citizens.

[Greed]

Oh, I'm just using the evidence in this thread provided by people that are for more gun control.

This thread is full of articles of criminals using guns, and barely any having been posted of law-abiding citizens.

[QueEx]

Originally Posted by Greed

Oh, I'm just using the evidence in this thread provided by people that are for more gun control.

This thread is full of articles of criminals using guns, and barely any having been posted of law-abiding citizens.

Cool, but I didn't read any articles stating that the government has no track record it can cite where it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals. But, I don't have a problem with articles showing the lawful use of weapons, especially self protection inside of the homeplace.

[QueEx]

BTW, I read a story yesterday or the day before about this woman wanting to place a tax on bullets to help the injured. As I recall, it appeared the proposed bullet tax was being sold as a way of reducing violence. I didn't think the violence reduction argument had much to do with, reducing violence.

[Greed]

Originally Posted by QueEx

Cool, but I didn't read any articles stating that the government has no track record it can cite where it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals. But, I don't have a problem with articles showing the lawful use of weapons, especially self protection inside of the homeplace.

Why would you expect people who are pro-gun control to post articles undermining their solution of more government regulations?

Originally Posted by QueEx

BTW, I read a story yesterday or the day before about this woman wanting to place a tax on bullets to help the injured. As I recall, it appeared the proposed bullet tax was being sold as a way of reducing violence. I didn't think the violence reduction argument had much to do with, reducing violence.

Who would pay the tax? Criminals buying the bullets on the black market or law-abiding citizens? My guess like most taxes it will be law-abiding citizens. Most of these measures aren't pro-gun control but instead anti-gun.

The pro-gun control people should separate themselves from the anti-gun people.